YAFA (Yet Another Foveon Alternative)

[gisle]

According to an article in the March edition of Photonics TechnologyWorld, a team from Germany and (Xerox?) PARC in California has integrated amorphous silicon readout electronics with a vertically integrated sensor to make a Bayer-less full colour sensor array.

The current prototype is a rather large sensor (65 mm, i.e. > MF), with low resolution (185 x 260 px, i. 0.05 Mpx). so there will be some time before this technology is shipping, but I think this sounds promising:

Source: http://www.photonics.com/spectra/tech/XQ/ASP/techid.1766/QX/read.htm
--

• gisle

 

[dr.noise]

cite

Santa Clara, Calif.-based Foveon Inc. produces a sensor in which a CMOS process is used to vertically integrate three diodes [...] The principle of operation for that image sensor and the new one is the same. Both make use of the different penetration depths of wavelengths of incoming light to assign each photon at a pixel to red, green or blue without the need for a filter.
cite

So, they're inventing a wheel?

 

[DaSonyGuy]

cite
Santa Clara, Calif.-based Foveon Inc. produces a sensor in which a
CMOS process is used to vertically integrate three diodes [...] The
principle of operation for that image sensor and the new one is the
same. Both make use of the different penetration depths of
wavelengths of incoming light to assign each photon at a pixel to
red, green or blue without the need for a filter.
cite

So, they're inventing a wheel?

Sounds exactly the same as the Foveon X3 sensor if you ask me so whats new?...And as such how are they going to get a patent for it?

At least the Fuji version is different enough from ther Foveon approach to warrent a patent.

Regards

DSG
--
http://sigmasd10.fotopic.net/

 

[gisle]

Sounds exactly the same as the Foveon X3 sensor if you ask me so
whats new?

If you read the article, you'll see that they use a manufacturing process that is very different from Foveons. I.e.: thin film deposited dual PIN diodes instead of solid-state CMOS.

My guess is that the Fuji and Jülich/PARC approaches are just the beginning, and that in the future, we'll see more and more research into non-bayer sensors from various groups. Some will be good enough to make their way into production models cameras, and some will not. Put for photographers, it will be good to know that there are people trying to advance the state of the art, and that Bayer is not the only game in town.
--

• gisle

 

[Provia_fan]

Sounds exactly the same as the Foveon X3 sensor if you ask me so
whats new?

If you read the article, you'll see that they use a manufacturing
process that is very different from Foveons. I.e.: thin film
deposited dual PIN diodes instead of solid-state CMOS.

My guess is that the Fuji and Jülich/PARC approaches are just the
beginning, and that in the future, we'll see more and more research
into non-bayer sensors from various groups. Some will be good
enough to make their way into production models cameras, and some
will not. Put for photographers, it will be good to know that there
are people trying to advance the state of the art, and that Bayer
is not the only game in town.
--

• gisle

I think we are finally seeing a bit of p*nis envy....pardon...sensor envy from the other manufacturers. Dont get me wrong, I love Fuji's SuperCCD and their new sensor approach, but at the same time the Foveon has been so criticised so badly and for so long I think it deserves at least the merit for being the first and for its image quality and also the support from its current users and new users.

I would like to see what the fanatical Sigma/Foveon bashers have to say about these new sensors now...probably gonna claim a breakthrough...
Nevertheless, I know that we haven't seen the last of the Foveon .

Regards,

Provia_fan

 

[dr.noise]

Sounds exactly the same as the Foveon X3 sensor if you ask me so
whats new?

If you read the article, you'll see that they use a manufacturing
process that is very different from Foveons. I.e.: thin film
deposited dual PIN diodes instead of solid-state CMOS.

But the idea of light penetrating the silicon at different depths is the same, and Foveon patented the idea as well, no?

 

[dr.noise]

I would like to see what the fanatical Sigma/Foveon bashers have to
say about these new sensors now...probably gonna claim a
breakthrough...

 

[Truman Prevatt]

snip

I think we are finally seeing a bit of p*nis envy....pardon...sensor envy from the other manufacturers. Dont get me wrong, I love Fuji's SuperCCD and their new sensor approach, but at the same time the Foveon has been so criticised so badly and for so long I think it deserves at least the merit for being the first and for its image quality and also the support from its current users and new users.

I would like to see what the fanatical Sigma/Foveon bashers have to say about these new sensors now...probably gonna claim a breakthrough...
Nevertheless, I know that we haven't seen the last of the Foveon .

end of snip

There is nothing magic to stacked sensors. After all that is all color film is. The sensor in that case is a chunk of silver. Foevon was the first on the market using CMOS. It turns out that the other approaches announced just implement the stacking differently. Just because CMOS was the first implementation does not mean it will be the best in the long run - Foeveon does have a noise problem probably because of slight variations of the silicon. It may be that is a fundamental limitation in the process - it may not be.

Engineers are doing what engineers do best - refining until they find the best solution for the price. In 10 years Foevon may not even be around or it may have solved it's implementation problems and the others have fallen by the wayside. In any case it is us the consumer that will be the ultimate winner.

--
Truman

 

[Dominic Groß]

the big question about this project is what have they done the last 4 years, the article seems to be new, but the content isn't exactly new, compared to what they published in IEEE transactions back in 2002 I can't spot any major progress.

--
http://www.pbase.com/dgross (work in progress)
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/dominic_gross_sd10

 

[Halldor Eiriksson]

According to an article in the March edition of Photonics
TechnologyWorld, a team from Germany and (Xerox?) PARC in
California has integrated amorphous silicon readout electronics
with a vertically integrated sensor to make a Bayer-less full
colour sensor array.

The current prototype is a rather large sensor (65 mm, i.e. > MF),
with low resolution (185 x 260 px, i. 0.05 Mpx). so there will be
some time before this technology is shipping, but I think this
sounds promising:

Source:
http://www.photonics.com/spectra/tech/XQ/ASP/techid.1766/QX/read.htm
--

• gisle

It seems that other camera users are waiting for something to replace the Bayer approac (or the Mosaic aproach). Saw this on the very nice Juza Nature Photography website:

"- The next Canon 1 series will be announced on September 2006, at Photokina. It has a 22 megapixel fullframe CMOS sensor (still a bayer-type, Canon is working on a different sensor but it won't be ready in the next future). It has a new AF system and 5 or more FPS. The price will be significatilvely lower than the 1Ds (I expect it to be near $5,000)."
--
http://www.pbase.com/halldore/

 

[gisle]

But the idea of light penetrating the silicon at different depths
is the same, and Foveon patented the idea as well, no?

I am not familiar with Foveon's patent, and this news article doesn't go into enough detail about this alternative technology to make it meaningful to compare anyway.

At the moment, I just find it interesting that researchers are exploring alternative approaches towards creating photographic images. This particular technology seems to be nowhere near the phase when it can be used to make a product, so whether they infringes upon Foveon's patent or not is a debate that can be saved till the day that they (hopefully) has refined the technology to something that has commercial uses.
--

• gisle

 

[Peter Spader]

Foveon has pioneered a new approach to gathering light as many of us have been pointing out for several years with our pictures as well as words.

Since Foveon has many years of developmental lead and two proven DSLR cameras out (thanks to Sigma), I anticipate they will continue to lead in VFA technology. The CFA (Bayer) approach is far from dead, but those who hoped VFA would just go away need to realize that this is not going to happen.

Pete

 

[Provia_fan]

There is nothing magic to stacked sensors. After all that is all
color film is. The sensor in that case is a chunk of silver. Foevon
was the first on the market using CMOS. It turns out that the other
approaches announced just implement the stacking differently. Just
because CMOS was the first implementation does not mean it will be
the best in the long run - Foeveon does have a noise problem
probably because of slight variations of the silicon. It may be
that is a fundamental limitation in the process - it may not be.

Engineers are doing what engineers do best - refining until they
find the best solution for the price. In 10 years Foevon may not
even be around or it may have solved it's implementation problems
and the others have fallen by the wayside. In any case it is us the
consumer that will be the ultimate winner.

--
Truman

I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that after all the bashing that the Foveon took, everybody now is following the idea and that only means that there is something to the Foveon after all. In the end, the Foveon sensor (lets forget film here for a moment since the innovation is on sensors) was the first to use the stacked design, took a bashing and now everybody else is saying that its a good idea after all.

Just a look at the images of the Sigma SD10 in low ISOs says that we havent seen the last of the Foveon.

 

[jim_st]

When comes the new sigma?
Jim.

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Sounds exactly the same as the Foveon X3 sensor if you ask me so
whats new?

If you read the article, you'll see that they use a manufacturing
process that is very different from Foveons. I.e.: thin film
deposited dual PIN diodes instead of solid-state CMOS.

But the idea of light penetrating the silicon at different depths
is the same, and Foveon patented the idea as well, no?

Nope. Old idea. Decades old, actually.

Foveon's patent has more to do with differential sensing than silicon depth penetration.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Forty-eight, fifteen, and seven. Watch your back, Dallas!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Fifty-five and thirteen, we're gonna stomp some Texan!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

According to an article in the March edition of Photonics
TechnologyWorld, a team from Germany and (Xerox?) PARC in
California has integrated amorphous silicon readout electronics
with a vertically integrated sensor to make a Bayer-less full
colour sensor array.

Yes. Layered sensors go back decades. So it's not YAFA, it's YALA (yet aonther layered approach) and Foveon is just one of the pack. First one to reach moderate prodiction, I'll give them that.

The current prototype is a rather large sensor (65 mm, i.e. > MF),
with low resolution (185 x 260 px, i. 0.05 Mpx). so there will be
some time before this technology is shipping, but I think this
sounds promising:

Hopefully, this is a step to getting the whole sensor into amorphous or polycrystaline silicon. I've been waiting to see an amorphous silicon sensor for years.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=5240094

The potential for big, cheap sensors is intriguing.

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Forty-eight, fifteen, and seven. Watch your back, Dallas!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Fifty-five and thirteen, we're gonna stomp some Texan!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

--
Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Forty-eight, fifteen, and seven. Watch your back, Dallas!

Detroit Pistons - Number 1 in the NBA!
Fifty-five and thirteen, we're gonna stomp some Texan!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Truman Prevatt]

snip

But the idea of light penetrating the silicon at different depths is the same, and Foveon patented the idea as well, no?
end snip

No actually that is a well known and understood physical phenomenon -moter nature owns that patent . I believe the Foveon patent was based on thier approach for collecting photons at different levels.

--
Truman

 

[Dominic Groß]

tried to email you scans of their publication in IEEE transactions, but the mail bounced back. If you are interested drop me a mail.
--
http://www.pbase.com/dgross (work in progress)
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/dominic_gross_sd10

 

[dr.noise]

No actually that is a well known and understood physical phenomenon
-moter nature owns that patent . I believe the Foveon patent was
based on thier approach for collecting photons at different levels.

Mother Nature holds each and every patent, actually.
But until it is properly documented, it is not a patent.