Too early to tell...What kind of rendering will it have ? IMHO it won't be much like Merrill, maybe something more like pre-Merrill, with colors like Quattro ? Anyway it's an interresting move they made going back to 1:1:1 structure, I hope they did by conviction and not because of user complaints.
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Will You Get Sigma's 20 MP/layer Full-Frame Camera?
- Thread starter Scottelly
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It looks like I may have to consider medium format more seriously. I've been thinking about getting the new Fuji. I know someone who is going to get one of those, and I will surely "try out" that one myself. For now I will stick to what I've got, and then step up to the S1R, when I can afford one. I want more "resolution" than my SD Quattro H offers though. The 100 MP medium format camera will offer me the ability to print at 60" x 90" with about the same quality as I can now print at 40" x 60" . . . which I think would be nice. Since the new Fuji and lenses for it will be so expensive and less portable though, I may just decide to wait, and use the SD Quattro H and S1R for my most "important" work. I plan to sail around the World, and during that three year trip, I will shoot many thousands of photos . . . making my idea of shooting with an 8x10 film camera too impractical. I was hoping Sigma would make a full-frame Quattro, or possibly a full-frame camera with a 28 or 30 MP Merrill (1:1:1) sensor. Since that's not the case, and since I plan to make giant prints, it looks like I'll end up sticking with what I've got. Now to get the S1R and fix up my Bristol 30 (sailboat).
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
When Mr Yamaki toured the Quattro generation sensor, he said something like "Of course we look to our competitors and see that they can do low light increasingly well, and we wish that our sensor can do the same."
In the CP+ presentation, the Foveon guy said that their goal was "ultimate image quality" and "large format film" quality.
I suspect that - while the Quattro was in many ways a step forward in the technology, it lost a bit of what made the Foveon different from a Bayer sensor, and they realized that if they're going to compete, they need to stop optimizing for a wide-variety of uses and start optimizing for what makes Foveon different from Bayer - the 1:1:1.
In my playing with Quattro images, I overlayed an SPP monochrome image over an SPP color image with luminosity blend in Photoshop. I liked the results A LOT.
If the new 1:1:1 sensor can produce images of that quality - not Merrill generation crunchy, and not Quattro generation soft - but the best of both worlds - I'd be VERY happy.
(see sample image here - look for the denim jacket image)
An Ode to the Sigma Foveon Sensor
Sigma has, for years, blazed a daring path with a unique sensor technology. It has many fans and I’m one of them.
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
Wow. Enjoy the trip man. Where are you planning on going?
Manzur Fahim
Veteran Member
I think I will get one.
I don't need higher resolution, my other cameras can deliver that. I want a Merrill FF sensor, and I have seen in the past how a 16MP APS-C dp2 Merrill can go head to head or even outperform high-res DSLRs. A 20MP FF Merrill will outperform many cameras IQ wise. But I have to wait and see reviews and the price will have to be affordable too. And at 6.5micron per pixel, I'm sure it'll be cleaner and can tolerate higher ISOs, though I am not interested in high ISO quality, I am more interested the cleaner big fat pixels.
I don't need higher resolution, my other cameras can deliver that. I want a Merrill FF sensor, and I have seen in the past how a 16MP APS-C dp2 Merrill can go head to head or even outperform high-res DSLRs. A 20MP FF Merrill will outperform many cameras IQ wise. But I have to wait and see reviews and the price will have to be affordable too. And at 6.5micron per pixel, I'm sure it'll be cleaner and can tolerate higher ISOs, though I am not interested in high ISO quality, I am more interested the cleaner big fat pixels.
I (naively ?) think Mr Yamaki aims first and foremost for the best IQ for each generation. Now, IQ being a rather subjective notion, people will like a given "rendering" or not. Other than that, I hope for the best both worlds like you (I didn't use pre-Merrill generations), although I don't find Quattro rendering soft but there are always things that can be improved.
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Joris1632
Veteran Member
If the intro is 2020 and reviews, pros and cons, squabbles, infighting and backbiting take some months, I might decide in 2021 or so if the 1:1:1 FF offers me a real improvement on what I have. Then, if I can afford it, if health permits, maybe ..........
Scott, I think it's clear from responses here that you are alone in obsessing about MP. I feel that I "upgraded" from a Nikon FF with 60mm micro lens to a DP3M :-D . I'm guessing that most Sigma camera users feel the same kind of kinship with Foveon sensors.
Maybe you'd be happier dumping Sigma and going Nikon/Sony/Canon?
Actually I used pre-Merrill, because there seem to be a lot of people who will not us a Merrill, because of how "noisy" it is, and because they seem to think it captures color differently. The full-frame camera is going to have a sensor that is far less densely packed with pixels, being about 2.5x the size, but with only about 35% more MP. I think the new sensor will be much more like the one in the SD15 and previous generations, than the SD1 Merrill, and that's why I wrote "pre-Merrill" rather than just "pre-Quattro."
MrImprovement
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The megapixels race reminds me, a computer nerd, of the MegaHertz/GigaHertz race in computer CPUs. Everyone obsessed over GHz until they realized that a) what they had was often fast enough b) straight line computation performance (i.e. a single task) was not the full measure of desirability.
20MP of Foveon non-Bayer is more than enough for anything a person reasonably wants to do. 20MP Foveon is roughly equivalent to 36MP Bayer and with smart/careful Photoshop work you could easily upsize it to 72MP Bayer equivalence.
If you are doing anything above 20x30inch prints, you are an outlier... I am old enough to remember that getting a "good" 20x24 from low-ISO 35mm or medium format, was considered to be the mark of a craftsman.
(Aside: I know an artist and her artist husband, they both love big canvases but realized that they don't even have a big enough house to display everything....)
I went to visit my brother who lives in a 3rd World country; not knowing how violent it would be (turns out I was safe the entire time I was there), I took a Sony DSC-R1 I had. The issue was not the megapixels but my ability!
If the Foveon FF looks good enough I will buy it. It will take Leica ($$$) and Panasonic (will drop in price on the used market) lenses as well as Sigma lenses.
BTW: The sensor used in Pentax 645Z, Hasselblad X1D and Fuji 50 is EXACTLY the same sensor.
20MP of Foveon non-Bayer is more than enough for anything a person reasonably wants to do. 20MP Foveon is roughly equivalent to 36MP Bayer and with smart/careful Photoshop work you could easily upsize it to 72MP Bayer equivalence.
If you are doing anything above 20x30inch prints, you are an outlier... I am old enough to remember that getting a "good" 20x24 from low-ISO 35mm or medium format, was considered to be the mark of a craftsman.
(Aside: I know an artist and her artist husband, they both love big canvases but realized that they don't even have a big enough house to display everything....)
I went to visit my brother who lives in a 3rd World country; not knowing how violent it would be (turns out I was safe the entire time I was there), I took a Sony DSC-R1 I had. The issue was not the megapixels but my ability!
If the Foveon FF looks good enough I will buy it. It will take Leica ($$$) and Panasonic (will drop in price on the used market) lenses as well as Sigma lenses.
BTW: The sensor used in Pentax 645Z, Hasselblad X1D and Fuji 50 is EXACTLY the same sensor.
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I figure I'll head down to Key West, and leaver from there toward the Panama canal, through that short-cut to the Pacific, and then down the coast of South America to somewhere in Peru, across to the Galapagos, then on to Tahiti and a bunch of other Pacific Islands, including the Cook Islands and Fiji, before heading to Brisbane, Australia, where I figure I could spend a few months working somewhere, to take a break and re-supply. (I'm an Australian citizen.) Then I'll head out toward the Maldives, after sailing along the coast of northern Australia. I might head down to Perth, before heading across the Indian Ocean, because I know someone there, and I might want to take a break after sailing so far along the coast of the continent. Eventually I'll go to the Seychelles and Madagascar, after I spend some time in the Maldives, before heading to South Africa. My plan is to sail around the Cape of Good Hope when the weather is right, and then across to Argentina, before heading up the coast of South America, and back up through the Caribbean to Key West. I would like to visit Bali and the Phillippines, which I could do by heading up there from Darwin, but that is likely to add six months or even a year to my journey. I guess I'll see what I think when I get to Australia. I've met people who planned to take a one year trip around the Caribbean, but there were still on their sailboat in the Caribbean after ten years.
Drop-outs!
larryj
Forum Pro
I will buy it if the price is not too high and it does not have AFE!
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
In my experience - at least in portrait mode on the Quattro
- Mid-tones were over exposed
- The images were less sharp/contrasty
(yes I'm saying "red" in quotes because I know it's not actually a "red" layer).
In monochrome the Quattro is excellent and IMHO better than the Merrill generation which had exaggerated microcontrast.
I agree that he aims for the best image quality for each generation, and the move to Quattro was likely as much about getting as many photons as possible down to the lower layers to improve color fidelity as it was to improve high ISO performance/dynamic range.
I don't think it's a mistake that the follow up to the Quattro is a larger pixel pitch 1:1:1 sensor. Their motivation for going full frame may even have been to increase pixel pitch without dramatically reducing pixel count, rather than a marketing decision to "go full frame."
Someone nerdier than me can figure out what the "pixel pitch" of the lower layer Quattro sensor was and how that compares to a 1:1:1 20.3 MP FF sensor.
The way I see it, the SD1 and Merrill cameras pretty much matched the Nikon D800. The D850 is a major step up from there, but only about 1/3 more MP (taking into account the removal of the AA filter). The full-frame Sigma will also be about 1/3 more MP than the SD1 and Merrill cameras, but with a return to the image quality of the pre-Merrill cameras. I have to say I think that the 20 MP decision is probably a good one, based on all that. It does not put Sigma in a MP race, which is really not a hot race at the moment. With Panasonic making a new full-frame camera that offers fewer MP than the now old Canon 5Ds (and 5Dsr), and with Nikon only stepping up to 45 MP, after Canon's introduction of the first 50 MP sensor in a 35mm camera body, and with Sony only stepping up to 42 MP from their 36 MP sensor, it seems to me that the MP race, if it is indeed still on, is really not a real race. It seems that manufacturers are more about improving camera body performance and usability, rather than increasing resolution . . . and by making the decision to move to a 20 MP per layer full-frame 1:1:1 sensor, I think Sigma has decided to do the same.
Of course this makes ME a little sad, because I really do want medium format image resolution in a smaller package, and a 40 MP equivalent camera isn't going to do that for me. After thinking more an reading what other people say though, I do think Sigma has made the right decision, though I really wish they had decided to push up that MP count to at least 28 MP per layer, as I'm sure you all know by now.
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
That sounds like an amazing journey.I figure I'll head down to Key West, and leaver from there toward the Panama canal, through that short-cut to the Pacific, and then down the coast of South America to somewhere in Peru, across to the Galapagos, then on to Tahiti and a bunch of other Pacific Islands, including the Cook Islands and Fiji, before heading to Brisbane, Australia, where I figure I could spend a few months working somewhere, to take a break and re-supply. (I'm an Australian citizen.) Then I'll head out toward the Maldives, after sailing along the coast of northern Australia. I might head down to Perth, before heading across the Indian Ocean, because I know someone there, and I might want to take a break after sailing so far along the coast of the continent. Eventually I'll go to the Seychelles and Madagascar, after I spend some time in the Maldives, before heading to South Africa. My plan is to sail around the Cape of Good Hope when the weather is right, and then across to Argentina, before heading up the coast of South America, and back up through the Caribbean to Key West. I would like to visit Bali and the Phillippines, which I could do by heading up there from Darwin, but that is likely to add six months or even a year to my journey. I guess I'll see what I think when I get to Australia. I've met people who planned to take a one year trip around the Caribbean, but there were still on their sailboat in the Caribbean after ten years.
Drop-outs!
I plan on getting an RV or maybe converting a van and doing an overland trip.
While NYC is a great place for culture and food and whatnot (if you don't mind the rat race) it has one distinct disadvantage - it's on the coast, which severely limits the places you can go on a long-weekend road trip (but Europe is just a ~5 hour flight).
This is very much in the back of my mind as I hoard my various bits of camera gear & consider what to sell off, what types of systems to buy into. What sorts of photos will I be taking & where will I stow all that gear?
I'm going to assume that a breakin is possible, so I'll want to have the most important stuff physically with me, which means I'll want light-weight gear capable of producing images to whatever quality I want to produce.
I'm happy with the Sony A7 with M-Mount glass for low-light performance in a reasonable package - who cares if it has an AA filter if half the photo is out of focus bokehballs anyway?
So then what to do for daylight (or long exposure night). The L-Mount alliance is intriguing to me because I can continue to use my M-Mount glass & put a Foveon sensor behind it - assuming the Foveon plays nicely with adapted lenses.
The DP Merrill generation shares a battery with the Ricoh GR - from GRD1 through GR2 - and having fewer types of batteries to worry about is important to me.
A GR for wide-angle and street style "from the hip" shooting + DP2 or DP3 Merrill would be a great compact travel combo. Just one battery type to worry about & no lenses cluttering up my life.
Looking forward to seeing your posts on the days you happen to have internet access.
jande9
Senior Member
I don't think I will get another interchangeable lens camera unless some kind of deal of the century happens.
I find that the quality of the lens is the most important component of image quality, and high quality L mount lenses will be too expensive for my budget and commitment level. I am not that impressed with the results when putting legacy lenses (50 Summilux, 28 Canon LTM, 50 Super Takumar) on my Nex 7 and I don't see why the results will be much better on a full frame body so I will pass.
I'm still holding out for a zoom DP with EVF and tilting screen, but that will never happen, sadly.
Jan
I find that the quality of the lens is the most important component of image quality, and high quality L mount lenses will be too expensive for my budget and commitment level. I am not that impressed with the results when putting legacy lenses (50 Summilux, 28 Canon LTM, 50 Super Takumar) on my Nex 7 and I don't see why the results will be much better on a full frame body so I will pass.
I'm still holding out for a zoom DP with EVF and tilting screen, but that will never happen, sadly.
Jan
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
A few thoughts.
The GFX seems like a good (expensive) choice if what you care about is super larger prints - though even a modest 40+ megapixel camera can print large. Few people will complain if it's not tack sharp from couple of inches away.
Does the new Panasonic have pixel shift? Assuming you're on land and with a tripod, that could produce large images.
The 20 mp FF 1:1:1 sensor seems in-line with Sigma's desire to produce "ultimate image quality" - the larger pixel size will have more light gathering abilities which will likely increase dynamic range & produce better shadow details.
Before the L-Mount alliance announcement, I was tempted by the GFX - with the plan of buying maybe one lens in a short telephoto range. But now my money will likely be going to Panasonic and Sigma.
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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
Forum Pro
It is slightly higher resolution (5520 x 3680 for the L, 5,440 × 3,616 for the H). But with that same resolution across all layers it should offer more detail on average than the H (which can achieve as much detail, but not in all situations).
The thing is the sensor is larger so with the resolution so close, that means the photo sites should be larger, that combined with it being a newer sensor should mean less noise and improved higher ISO support.
The other factor in its favor is the massive lens support. If any Canon trick lenses appeal (like a tilt-shift), well you can use the EF-L adaptor. Or I can use any really good SA mount lenses I already have. Or of course any of the L mount lenses from any of the three L-mount alliance companies...
On top of that it opens up the very nice ability to use what lenses you like, but actually being able to swap out camera bodies for meaningful feature changes. I have long held that what the digital era has lost most people is the ability to change out film - sure you can adjust ISO but it's not the same degree of change you could get by moving from one type of film to another. With the L-mount system I can get the Panasonic L-mount camera for video (4K 60FPS) or very high ISO support, in fact when the SA adaptor starts shipping I am thinking very strongly of getting the Panasonic L mount camera and adaptor, and then the Sigma next year for a fully complimentary system. In the meantime I'd use my SA lenses on the Quattro H and the Panasonic camera.
The NEX-7 is known to have problems with legacy lenses, especially those designed for rangefinder cameras. More recent Sony models such as the A7r2 give much better results -- there are many examples on the Adapted Lenses forum here.
I think the main improvement is in the microprisms.
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
Forum Pro
I will say I'm with Scott on the resolution, at least partly - although I don't need it to be more than it is, I would probably be less interested in the new camera if it had less resolution than the H.
Even with the cameras we have today, I end up using the DP cameras a lot less than the H just because I feel like I'm missing the chance to capture more resolution.
So I really like what they ended up with, still keeping resolution high but also increasing the photosite size and increasing the lower resolution layers.
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