Why no GPS in EM-1 ii?

[Thor Egil]

I'm fairly sure someone at Olympus will come up with the idea of a WiFi accessory that'd provide GPS & feed the information directly to the camera memory via the camera WiFi port.

Such a device could either resolve the GPS from satellites or from urban WiFi networks.

It'd be another of Olympus's firmware upgrade magic.

Yes, it's called OI. Share and you already have it installed on your phone.

--
Thor Egil
http://thoregilphoto.com

 

[Photo Pete]

GPS4Cam is a good, simple smartphone app for geotagging. It uses a QR code to synchronise the GPS log and the photos quickly and accurately.

I fully agree with the OP though, it still is an unnecessary step to take and the facility should be built into the camera.

Metal body or weather sealing should not be a problem. Recent smartphones have predominantly metal construction, are water resistant and are free from any antenna bumps or add-ons.

Battery life:- I would far prefer to carry a spare camera battery than a dedicated GPS logger unit. I would also far prefer to carry a spare camera battery than risk my phone battery running out through keeping a GPS app enabled all the time. Cameras that synch to the phone or GPS unit in real time need Bluetooth or other wireless connection enabled, which will run the battery down as quickly, if not quicker. than a built in GPS unit.

 

[Hen3ry]

However my original question still stands - why not incorporate this in camera? The fact the people are using data loggers would suggest this is a useful feature

I think a GPS receiver integrated in the camera at least on advantage over an external device:

=> it has access to camera sensory data.

EXIF GPS can record two coordinate sets: a) the coordinate where the image was taken (camera position) and b) the GPS coordinates of where the camera was pointing at (location shown).

If the camera firmware is suitably intelligent, it can incorporate sensor data like lens, focal length, input from the auto-focus system etc. to produce a very precise location shown GPS record.

These two coordinate pairs can then be used to visualize both the camera standpoint and the motive position on a map. Or to do reverse geo-coding (find the country, city, location from GPS coordinates) not only for the camera location but also for the motive.

Even more advantage for a built-in device.

When confronted by notions of separate devices, I just despair. Ray says he maps his trips on a tablet. Fine, Ray, but I don't have a tablet and as a camera accessory, do I want one? Weighs about half kilo, costs about the same as the camera and lens, and demands extra action to attach the GPS data to pictures. An in-camera unit such as fitted to my FT4 probably weighs about 5 grams, might cost $2, and adds the GPS data automatically.

Then there are the other proponents of using your phone. Apart from the matter of this being a separate device again that requires separate action to attach information to pix, -- which phone? The one that costs MORE than the camera? The one I don't have? And relying on phone coverage? Here in PNG, you get phone coverage in unexpected spots but while it is widespread it is not everywhere. Even in Australia, I wonder whether there is mobile coverage along the full length of the Stuart Highway now? There certainly is not along the full length of the railway from Melbourne to Cairns. Even in (little, more closely settled) Victoria, you get reliable coverage only in/near towns.

Enough of this rubbish about mobile phones!

Let's just get a cheap, simple GPS built into our cameras. And let's hear no more about battery drain -- if a P&S user can avoid it, why can't we "high end" users? And if Olympus is going to build all metal cameras, let them put a tiny plastic bubble on top with a sealed connection between the GPS receiver and the camera internals.

Good grief!!! So simple.

 

[rogher]

An excellent idea.

I can tag my pix from a track log off my stand-alone GPS (it runs all day long on one set of batteries) so have no need for the camera to do it. Might be nice, though, if the camera could link to the GPS to do so as I took the shots. I think that's the way to go.

 

[JakeJY]

Let's just get a cheap, simple GPS built into our cameras. And let's hear no more about battery drain -- if a P&S user can avoid it, why can't we "high end" users? And if Olympus is going to build all metal cameras, let them put a tiny plastic bubble on top with a sealed connection between the GPS receiver and the camera internals.

Good grief!!! So simple.

 

[Stefan Sobol]

IMO, the GPS feature is one of those fluff gimmicks that manufacturers waste time on versus important things (IMO) like improving image quality.

However, camera manufacturers are in the business of selling cameras and if GPS tagging is something that the public decides is the more desirable feature, then that's what you shall have.

 

[SkiHound]

I was thinking you could do that now using the Olympus wireless app. I've not done it, so I'm not sure, but I sure thought that was an option.

 

[OzRay]

Even more advantage for a built-in device.

When confronted by notions of separate devices, I just despair. Ray says he maps his trips on a tablet. Fine, Ray, but I don't have a tablet and as a camera accessory, do I want one? Weighs about half kilo, costs about the same as the camera and lens, and demands extra action to attach the GPS data to pictures. An in-camera unit such as fitted to my FT4 probably weighs about 5 grams, might cost $2, and adds the GPS data automatically.

Then there are the other proponents of using your phone. Apart from the matter of this being a separate device again that requires separate action to attach information to pix, -- which phone? The one that costs MORE than the camera? The one I don't have? And relying on phone coverage? Here in PNG, you get phone coverage in unexpected spots but while it is widespread it is not everywhere. Even in Australia, I wonder whether there is mobile coverage along the full length of the Stuart Highway now? There certainly is not along the full length of the railway from Melbourne to Cairns. Even in (little, more closely settled) Victoria, you get reliable coverage only in/near towns.

Enough of this rubbish about mobile phones!

Let's just get a cheap, simple GPS built into our cameras. And let's hear no more about battery drain -- if a P&S user can avoid it, why can't we "high end" users? And if Olympus is going to build all metal cameras, let them put a tiny plastic bubble on top with a sealed connection between the GPS receiver and the camera internals.

Good grief!!! So simple.

An external device such as this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Colu...hash=item3f14706f10:m:mgYnFq5LAJUHhH1SC-A3uqw , which will run for at least 24 hours non-stop, is a far better proposition than a built-in GPS. I'm actually thinking of getting one of these for when I'm about generally and not in my 4WD where I use the tablet.

I have a mobile phone data logger as well, but it does chew through the battery compared to a dedicated data logger plus, if people are concerned about privacy, some of these mobile phone data loggers send out your information to an external server.

And on another note, such as Colin's work, he says that he takes up to 2500 photos in a sailing regatta. How long do you think the camera battery will last if the GPS has to be on for those 2500 shots? There's no point in turning the GPS on and off, as you don't know when it might be required.

A data logger such as I noted, can be left to run all day and then when you've sorted through your photos and selected the best ones (or all of them if you want), it's a matter of a couple of minutes to use the software I mentioned (or an alternative) to GPS tag every photo automatically.

Enough of this rubbish about built-in GPS, technology allows far better options!

Good grief!!! So simple.

 

[Photo Pete]

An external device such as this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Colu...hash=item3f14706f10:m:mgYnFq5LAJUHhH1SC-A3uqw , which will run for at least 24 hours non-stop, is a far better proposition than a built-in GPS. I'm actually thinking of getting one of these for when I'm about generally and not in my 4WD where I use the tablet.

I have a mobile phone data logger as well, but it does chew through the battery compared to a dedicated data logger plus, if people are concerned about privacy, some of these mobile phone data loggers send out your information to an external server.

And on another note, such as Colin's work, he says that he takes up to 2500 photos in a sailing regatta. How long do you think the camera battery will last if the GPS has to be on for those 2500 shots? There's no point in turning the GPS on and off, as you don't know when it might be required.

A data logger such as I noted, can be left to run all day and then when you've sorted through your photos and selected the best ones (or all of them if you want), it's a matter of a couple of minutes to use the software I mentioned (or an alternative) to GPS tag every photo automatically.

Enough of this rubbish about built-in GPS, technology allows far better options!

Good grief!!! So simple.

 

[OzRay]

So why not simply build dedicated data logger functionality into the camera? The logger you reference doesn't have a huge battery and there is no reason why an in-built gps logger can't remain active when the other camera functions are turned off if required, which would avoid the lengthy re-aquisition times.

I'd far sooner make sure I had a couple of charged camera batteries with me than remember to charge and take a separate device.... and it's certainly simpler to tag each photo automatically as it's taken than to tag them later, no matter how 'automated' that separate step is.

I'm not surprised that smartphones are eating into the camera market with this sort of luddite nonsense being used to justify omitting useful features from traditional cameras.

I simply don't understand why people want cameras to become smart phones. It could be that the Luddites are those that are incapable of adopting and using discrete technology that better suits a need.

If anyone seriously requires data logging of their photos, they'll have a routine where taking along a separate data logger becomes automatic. It's a bit like taking the necessary lenses with you on an assignment.

 

[sdw1]

I am currently working on on a series of "geospatial-supported" illustrations - and would really like to see more than just a GPS coordinate in EXIF. I'd also like to see elevation, azimuth, and view angle of inclination or declination (date / time is already there of course). That way, anyone (myself included) could take a pic from nearly the same time and position later.

Doc

 

[OzRay]

I am currently working on on a series of "geospatial-supported" illustrations - and would really like to see more than just a GPS coordinate in EXIF. I'd also like to see elevation, azimuth, and view angle of inclination or declination (date / time is already there of course). That way, anyone (myself included) could take a pic from nearly the same time and position later.

Doc

With coordinates (which already presupposes altitude) and a date/time stamp, that's pretty much what you can do already. Weather and other conditions may prevent taking an exact duplicate photograph.

I think the other features is perhaps asking for too much and how would you re-use such data? What regular device provides such information and allows recall at any time?

 

[Photo Pete]

1. OzRay wrote:

So why not simply build dedicated data logger functionality into the camera? The logger you reference doesn't have a huge battery and there is no reason why an in-built gps logger can't remain active when the other camera functions are turned off if required, which would avoid the lengthy re-aquisition times.

I'd far sooner make sure I had a couple of charged camera batteries with me than remember to charge and take a separate device.... and it's certainly simpler to tag each photo automatically as it's taken than to tag them later, no matter how 'automated' that separate step is.

I'm not surprised that smartphones are eating into the camera market with this sort of luddite nonsense being used to justify omitting useful features from traditional cameras.

I simply don't understand why people want cameras to become smart phones.

Because some of the smartphone camera features work better than those of dedicated cameras.

It could be that the Luddites are those that are incapable of adopting and using discrete technology that better suits a need.

Bingo. That's the whole point. Built in GPS, implemented correctly, suits the need better than discrete technology.

Cameras record all sorts of shooting data such as the time the photo was taken. Do you think we should use discrete technology to log that too? What makes GPS so different?

Not too long ago the majority of cameras had no wifi capability. You could buy dedicated wifi dongles which needed charging separately. Just like GPS dongles they were a kludge that had been introduced to provide a feature which was much better implemented by being built into the camera.

If anyone seriously requires data logging of their photos, they'll have a routine where taking along a separate data logger becomes automatic. It's a bit like taking the necessary lenses with you on an assignment.

Can't remember ever having to charge my lenses up the night before a shoot... I normally just keep them in my bag and set off.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

--
Have Fun
Photo Pete

 

[OzRay]

I simply don't understand why people want cameras to become smart phones.

Because some of the smartphone camera features work better than those of dedicated cameras.

They work better on a smart phone because smart phones are ostensibly small computers, not dedicated cameras. They make smart phones and tablets for people like this:

It could be that the Luddites are those that are incapable of adopting and using discrete technology that better suits a need.

Bingo. That's the whole point. Built in GPS, implemented correctly, suits the need better than discrete technology.

Not so, discrete technology is generally better than fully combined units. Remember those TVs that came with built-in everything? One component fails and you need to replace the lot. The same with all-in-one stereos etc.

Cameras record all sorts of shooting data such as the time the photo was taken. Do you think we should use discrete technology to log that too? What makes GPS so different?

That is because it's a general file recording system, without which the camera basically wouldn't work.

If anyone seriously requires data logging of their photos, they'll have a routine where taking along a separate data logger becomes automatic. It's a bit like taking the necessary lenses with you on an assignment.

Can't remember ever having to charge my lenses up the night before a shoot... I normally just keep them in my bag and set off.

I was talking about bringing the correct gear with you, by planning ahead. There are other components to also consider eg, flash, flash batteries, filters, tripod etc. But I keep forgetting, smart phones don't require those things.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland

http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

 

[Photo Pete]

I simply don't understand why people want cameras to become smart phones.

Because some of the smartphone camera features work better than those of dedicated cameras.

They work better on a smart phone because smart phones are ostensibly small computers, not dedicated cameras.

You think a digital camera isn't a small computer? You think the benefits of camera touch screens weren't derived from smartphone technology?

They make smart phones and tablets for people like this:

It could be that the Luddites are those that are incapable of adopting and using discrete technology that better suits a need.

Bingo. That's the whole point. Built in GPS, implemented correctly, suits the need better than discrete technology.

Not so, discrete technology is generally better than fully combined units. Remember those TVs that came with built-in everything? One component fails and you need to replace the lot. The same with all-in-one stereos etc.

Way back, the same argument was made about camera lightmeters, which, being in a camera, is probably more relevant than talking about TVs and stereos.

Cameras record all sorts of shooting data such as the time the photo was taken. Do you think we should use discrete technology to log that too? What makes GPS so different?

That is because it's a general file recording system, without which the camera basically wouldn't work.

You think a camera file system couldn't function by just giving each photo an incremental number?

If anyone seriously requires data logging of their photos, they'll have a routine where taking along a separate data logger becomes automatic. It's a bit like taking the necessary lenses with you on an assignment.

Can't remember ever having to charge my lenses up the night before a shoot... I normally just keep them in my bag and set off.

I was talking about bringing the correct gear with you, by planning ahead. There are other components to also consider eg, flash, flash batteries, filters, tripod etc. But I keep forgetting, smart phones don't require those things.

Now, flash is a good example of something which can be built into a camera but which IS better as a discrete unit. To gain sufficient power and directional control the bulk would be detrimental to the camera handling when flash was not being used. GPS, not so.

Anyway. Points made. Let's agree to disagree. It's 2am here and I'm off to bed. I should never start a debate with an Australian late at night as they'll always be able to make the final post!

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

--
Have Fun
Photo Pete

 

[OzRay]

Indeed, and you're wrong.

 

[Colin K. Work]

50 Years Ago on DPReview ...

"Why don't SLRs have built in light meters?"

- I already have a dedicated hand held device to do this

- Where would it fit in the camera?

- It's gonna need batteries? Where are you going to put them

- What if the batteries run out

- Who needs a lightmeter - just use the sunny f16 rule

- a handheld incident meter is a more accurate tool than a built in reflective meter



More seriously, I've run a freebie data logger on my basic samsung phone for a day and it really hasn't had a major impact on battery life. From what's been said, I expected the phone to be dead by bedtime.

But here's another thing. In terms of camera batteries, I carry plenty of spares. Probably enough to support 2 days of non-stop shooting without recharging. I also use my phone while on a shoot - the usual communication, but sometimes WiFi set ups, the odd snap of a set up etc. etc. And for me the battery life of the phone is the main concern - if I run out, there's not a lot I can do, so I'd prefer to minimise the load on that or have to carry a portable charger.

And if I'm away for more than a couple of days - I'm juggling battery charging, phone charging, and now you suggest a data logger. In a crappy hotel room with one power socket, or worse, on a boat with limited AC which the owner is using for all the nav gear anyway!

I want to downsize and simplify (one of the reasons I moved to m43)

 

[Colin K. Work]

I am currently working on on a series of "geospatial-supported" illustrations - and would really like to see more than just a GPS coordinate in EXIF. I'd also like to see elevation, azimuth, and view angle of inclination or declination (date / time is already there of course). That way, anyone (myself included) could take a pic from nearly the same time and position later.

Doc

With coordinates (which already presupposes altitude) and a date/time stamp, that's pretty much what you can do already. Weather and other conditions may prevent taking an exact duplicate photograph.

I think the other features is perhaps asking for too much and how would you re-use such data? What regular device provides such information and allows recall at any time?

 

[OzRay]

In this digital age you have no choice but to be able to manage batteries. A power bank is a useful device in emergencies.

I just ordered the V990 data logger, as I realised that it can be a useful tool because I don't have my tablet permanently mounted in my 4WD, as it creates other issues.

By having discrete devices that perform a single function may sound as if it creates additional headaches, but a power failure in one device doesn't cripple everything.

This used to be called not putting all of your eggs in the same basket.

I might also add that I've had decades of experience with GPS devices and I personally do not want one in a camera.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

 

[Colin K. Work]

In this digital age you have no choice but to be able to manage batteries. A power bank is a useful device in emergencies.

I just ordered the V990 data logger, as I realised that it can be a useful tool because I don't have my tablet permanently mounted in my 4WD, as it creates other issues.

By having discrete devices that perform a single function may sound as if it creates additional headaches, but a power failure in one device doesn't cripple everything.

This used to be called not putting all of your eggs in the same basket.