What can and can't be done with m4/3 RAW files

[MiraShootsNikon]

And that's that.

Well, not exactly.

You're forgetting, TN, that the forum moderator approved / rewarded the OP's behavior, here, by deleting most of the critical opinions--focusing particularly on those which, as you say, "wanted to help make this thread achieve what [the OP] wanted it to achieve, but better." Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

And this despite the fact that there's a terse post up there from MeganV, commenting on the OP's questionable behavior, that got as many or more likes than anything from the OP!

(I'm sure this post will probably get deleted, too. "It's against the rules to comment on moderation.")

There are just so many reasons why the DP Review fora are looking more and more like infamous Youtube comment streams, and this thread demonstrates a few of them interacting at once.

And who is anyone else to judge what the ultimate intention or what the OP wanted to achieve, but the OP himself?

Hey, it's an open discussion forum, isn't it? A place where, if someone posts a proposition, others can chime in and disagree with it. Who am I to judge? I'm a registered DP Review forum user, that's who I am. I'm free to disagree with things people write, here--I'm free to judge them wrong and explain, politely, why.

In this case, TN posted some polite, thoughtful criticism. Oz reacted with aggression and rudeness. And yet you cite the criticism as the problem.

He have been explaining his intention had nothing to do with the kind of file he posted originally. But you kept flaming him for not posting a true m43 file.

"Flame?" I just don't see any reasonable way TN's criticisms--those you deleted--could be characterized as "flame." They were polite, genteel, logical, thoughtful. Even after they were met with some pretty aggressive responses from Oz!

Posts from me were less polite. In fact, I wrote in a tone that Oz's rudeness authorized. (You've preserved that--Oz's rudeness--just fine, by the way). And I criticized him not for missing a "true m43 file," but rather for being rude to TN and literally every single other post that had any critical thing to say, whatsoever, about his proposition. You know, the same thing that MeganV commented on four posts in and got 15 "likes" for noting. More "likes" than anything Oz wrote.

If you want to gauge how this thread went, why aren't you following the things that readers liked?Oz got 14 for his proposition, MeganV got 15 for noting he was being rude.

Your moderation, here, has rewarded and encouraged behavior that many of the thread's readers thought was poor.

And yes, this post of yours should be deleted, since it violates forum rules, so you shouldn't have posted it in the first place. But instead, I'll let it pass. I'm entitled to have an opinion myself, and I believe Ozray didn't committed any mistake on his post.

That you don't believe OzRay's behavior in this thread was trouble--well, that's much to the detriment of this forum.

It's nice when we pat each other on the back, but it's even nicer when we disagree and have different opinions and experiences and thoughts to share. And nicest of all when we're sufficiently polite that we let everyone's opinions air. We learn more hearing from everyone--even if they disagree with us, even if we think they're preposterous--than we do from self-congratulation.

You've made a moderation mistake, here.

 

[Martin Ocando]

And that's that.

Well, not exactly.

You're forgetting, TN, that the forum moderator approved / rewarded the OP's behavior, here, by deleting most of the critical opinions--focusing particularly on those which, as you say, "wanted to help make this thread achieve what [the OP] wanted it to achieve, but better." Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

And this despite the fact that there's a terse post up there from MeganV, commenting on the OP's questionable behavior, that got as many or more likes than anything from the OP!

(I'm sure this post will probably get deleted, too. "It's against the rules to comment on moderation.")

There are just so many reasons why the DP Review fora are looking more and more like infamous Youtube comment streams, and this thread demonstrates a few of them interacting at once.

And who is anyone else to judge what the ultimate intention or what the OP wanted to achieve, but the OP himself?

Hey, it's an open discussion forum, isn't it? A place where, if someone posts a proposition, others can chime in and disagree with it. Who am I to judge? I'm a registered DP Review forum user, that's who I am. I'm free to disagree with things people write, here--I'm free to judge them wrong and explain, politely, why.

In this case, TN posted some polite, thoughtful criticism. Oz reacted with aggression and rudeness. And yet you cite the criticism as the problem.

Maybe I didn't explained myself correctly. I meant who are you to decide what was the OP intention, but himself. You can judge whatever you want, but only Oz knows what he wanted to achieve with the thread. Nobody else can. The closest you can do is assume.

He have been explaining his intention had nothing to do with the kind of file he posted originally. But you kept flaming him for not posting a true m43 file.

"Flame?" I just don't see any reasonable way TN's criticisms--those you deleted--could be characterized as "flame." They were polite, genteel, logical, thoughtful. Even after they were met with some pretty aggressive responses from Oz!

Posts from me were less polite. In fact, I wrote in a tone that Oz's rudeness authorized. (You've preserved that--Oz's rudeness--just fine, by the way). And I criticized him not for missing a "true m43 file," but rather for being rude to TN and literally every single other post that had any critical thing to say, whatsoever, about his proposition. You know, the same thing that MeganV commented on four posts in and got 15 "likes" for noting. More "likes" than anything Oz wrote.

If you want to gauge how this thread went, why aren't you following the things that readers liked?Oz got 14 for his proposition, MeganV got 15 for noting he was being rude.

Your moderation, here, has rewarded and encouraged behavior that many of the thread's readers thought was poor.

You are right. I just dedicated a bit of time to reread the whole thread, including the deleted pieces, and there is indeed indication of lack of ability of handling argument from both parties. I'm recovering the deleted pieces of the thread, which include TN posts, and issuing an apology to those who received that ill behavior.

But I still believe that the thread came belly up when the discussion centered on why he didn't posted a real m43 image instead. That was the part that I thought it was uncalled for.

And yes, this post of yours should be deleted, since it violates forum rules, so you shouldn't have posted it in the first place. But instead, I'll let it pass. I'm entitled to have an opinion myself, and I believe Ozray didn't committed any mistake on his post.

That you don't believe OzRay's behavior in this thread was trouble--well, that's much to the detriment of this forum.

It's nice when we pat each other on the back, but it's even nicer when we disagree and have different opinions and experiences and thoughts to share. And nicest of all when we're sufficiently polite that we let everyone's opinions air. We learn more hearing from everyone--even if they disagree with us, even if we think they're preposterous--than we do from self-congratulation.

You've made a moderation mistake, here.

I did, and offer my apologies. To err is human.

 

[TN Args]

Gee Martin, errrr, I'm humbled. Thank you

 

[Martin Ocando]

Gee Martin, errrr, I'm humbled. Thank you

--
Arg

Anytime.

At my 49 years of age, I still learn a lot. From you guys and gals, every day. I thank you for that.

--
Martin
"One of the biggest mistakes a photographer can make is to look at the real world and cling to the vain hope that next time his film will somehow bear a closer resemblance to it" - Galen Rowell

 

[Old Listener]

Gee Martin, errrr, I'm humbled. Thank you

 

[s_grins]

And what does different bayonet make difference when format is same?

When images can be edited well with a old sensor, then a newer generation sensor can give more possibilities.

You would rather asked OP about those things that can't be done.

__

Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

 

[Fri13]

There was a recent debate about what you can and can't extract from highlights with a m4/3 sensor in another thread and how 'other' sensors are much better and more forgiving. The discussion comparing sensor qualities really wasn't germane to that thread, but that's typical for most forums.

Two things (again). If I understood correctly, you only now compared 4/3 sensor (same sensor used in 4/3 and m4/3 cameras) size capabilities to larger sensors capabilities, and yet people started nitpick about the technology instead even looking the photo (some mentioned about the lightrays etc meaning they actually saw the photos .

But that your photo sticked to my mind for these couple days and I wanted to ask that do you happen to know reason why there were so many cars traveling somewhere? Clearly they drive with distance to each other so they see where they are driving (experienced drivers/military personnel?) but more likely looks like some group going to weekend/week trip?

ps. I can't get my eye off from that white roadpole center bottom edge

 

[OzRay]

There was a recent debate about what you can and can't extract from highlights with a m4/3 sensor in another thread and how 'other' sensors are much better and more forgiving. The discussion comparing sensor qualities really wasn't germane to that thread, but that's typical for most forums.

Two things (again). If I understood correctly, you only now compared 4/3 sensor (same sensor used in 4/3 and m4/3 cameras) size capabilities to larger sensors capabilities, and yet people started nitpick about the technology instead even looking the photo (some mentioned about the lightrays etc meaning they actually saw the photos .

But that your photo sticked to my mind for these couple days and I wanted to ask that do you happen to know reason why there were so many cars traveling somewhere? Clearly they drive with distance to each other so they see where they are driving (experienced drivers/military personnel?) but more likely looks like some group going to weekend/week trip?

ps. I can't get my eye off from that white roadpole center bottom edge

I was simply considering what could be extracted from m4/3 files. I started with 4/3 files, as an introduction into the thread, touching on the history of the format (4/3 and m4/3 are ostensibly of the same family lineage - it would be different if we compared APS-C with FF). I believe that it's important to look back, before proceeding forwards, so that we can appreciate how much things have progressed, in both hardware and software. This is especially important, as both systems are in general use today.

The reason for the line of cars is because they are part of a group on a trip we did years ago. I was Tail End Charlie on this trip and stopped on the top of the hill to get the shot, as it looked pretty neat. The roads our way can get awfully dusty in summer, so you need to keep your distance to be safe. On some trips that I've done, the separation of the lead vehicle and tail end vehicle has been so great that even on dead flat terrain, the lead and tail end vehicles haven't been able to communicate by radio.

That road marker forces you to come back to the start and begin looking wider once more.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

 

[Hen3ry]

That road marker forces you to come back to the start and begin looking wider once more.

I had a question about that too. I think I would have cloned it out.

 

[OzRay]

That road marker forces you to come back to the start and begin looking wider once more.

I had a question about that too. I think I would have cloned it out.

 

[Guy Parsons]

That road marker forces you to come back to the start and begin looking wider once more.

I had a question about that too. I think I would have cloned it out.

 

[OzRay]

Possibly, it depends on what the mark was and what the purpose of the image was.

Meanwhile I'm another who wants to see the white post removed, it is an annoying distraction. In my case when shooting I make a point of moving my position or zooming to get distractions like that out of the frame - if possible. If not then possibly crop out later or clone it out, again depending on the purpose of the image.

Regards..... Guy

The post remains, like a nudist at a tailor's convention.

 

[nzmacro]

You had me curious Ray since I take a lot of black, white or a combination of each with birds.

The Royal white Spoonbill came to mind since I do have issues with them now and again. The problem is getting the background correct while still getting the Spoonbill reasonable.

Anyway, into LR with a shot as an example

So no noise reduction, just highlights worked on from the RAW.

The final shot cropped, sharpened and tweaked in other software.

So that's the final result

The one before it and was treated the same in LR

The shot before

Its quite simple really, if there was an issue with RAW and what we could squeeze out of it, then it would be goodbye m4/3 in a heartbeat ;-)

All the best Ray and BTW, really nice work and shot that one of yours. I wish I could see like that sometimes.

Danny.

--
Birds, macro, motor sports.... http://www.birdsinaction.com
Flickr albums ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/124733969@N06/sets/
The need for speed ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/130646821@N03/

 

[OzRay]

I've never said that you can't do effective adjustments in Lightroom, that really wasn't the point of this post. However, I have found that I can do a lot more with Capture One and with greater ease. Your mileage will obviously vary.

 

[nzmacro]

I've never said that you can't do effective adjustments in Lightroom, that really wasn't the point of this post. However, I have found that I can do a lot more with Capture One and with greater ease. Your mileage will obviously vary.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

Well you did say .....

"There was a recent debate about what you can and can't extract from highlights with a m4/3 sensor in another thread and how 'other' sensors are much better and more forgiving. The discussion comparing sensor qualities really wasn't germane to that thread, but that's typical for most forums."

I guess the image I posted isn't what you were on about then

All the best Ray.

Danny.

--
Birds, macro, motor sports.... http://www.birdsinaction.com
Flickr albums ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/124733969@N06/sets/
The need for speed ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/130646821@N03/

 

[OzRay]

I've never said that you can't do effective adjustments in Lightroom, that really wasn't the point of this post. However, I have found that I can do a lot more with Capture One and with greater ease. Your mileage will obviously vary.

 

[nzmacro]

I've never said that you can't do effective adjustments in Lightroom, that really wasn't the point of this post. However, I have found that I can do a lot more with Capture One and with greater ease. Your mileage will obviously vary.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

Well you did say .....

"There was a recent debate about what you can and can't extract from highlights with a m4/3 sensor in another thread and how 'other' sensors are much better and more forgiving. The discussion comparing sensor qualities really wasn't germane to that thread, but that's typical for most forums."

I guess the image I posted isn't what you were on about then

All the best Ray.

Danny.

--
Birds, macro, motor sports.... http://www.birdsinaction.com
Flickr albums ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/124733969@N06/sets/
The need for speed ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/130646821@N03/

And where in that quote is there anything specifically relating to software? The other thread did discuss other sensors and I decided to raise a thread purely about m4/3 and its family of sensors, and post-processing images from those sensors.

However, this thread has attracted some as if I've described a way to kill babies and display their entrails. For crying out loud, I've posted a few photographs showing how I've post-processed them in a way that I find rather pleasing and suddenly World War III has broken out.

WTF?

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
http://australianimage.com.au/wordpress/

I just learn't a lot more about you Ray. Sorry for trying to help with a couple of measly shots that had too much highlights in them.

Its been a pleasure and you are welcome.

Danny.

--
Birds, macro, motor sports.... http://www.birdsinaction.com
Flickr albums ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/124733969@N06/sets/
The need for speed ..... https://www.flickr.com/photos/130646821@N03/

 

[OzRay]

I've never said that you can't do effective adjustments in Lightroom, that really wasn't the point of this post. However, I have found that I can do a lot more with Capture One and with greater ease. Your mileage will obviously vary.

 

[Big Ga]

However, this thread has attracted some as if I've described a way to kill babies and display their entrails. For crying out loud, I've posted a few photographs showing how I've post-processed them in a way that I find rather pleasing and suddenly World War III has broken out.

WTF?

Since you seem to have forgotten, the original title of your thread is:

"What can and can't be done with m4/3 RAW files"

A top candidate for "Most misleading thread title of the year" given what you then posted.

if perhaps you would have titled it as

"Cor blimey mate, look what I've just found! A little slider called 'highlight recovery' ... and guess what ... it makes light skies a little darker ... COOL ..."

And then refrained from putting your foot in your mouth with every succeeding paragraph, then maybe you wouldn't have had the backlash?