Value System Build

malch wrote:
SushiEater wrote:

Now try to copy from one fast location to another fast location so no computing time is involved and you see a big difference. Also, try saving large files (not 16mp RAW files) generated by panorama software or copying these files from one location to another and you will see huge difference.
Oh good grief man. Does it sound like the OP spends his day editing Giga pixel panos as his profession?
You have no idea what he is going to do in the future and he said he wants RAID and he wants it to last another 7 years or more. And he also said he would spend more money if necessary to do it. He just does not want to waste money. Raid is definitely not wasting money. It double capacity and double performance for the same money. Actually cheaper because larger drives (to a point) cost less than smaller drives.
 
Yeah, maybe on your slow computer!!!!! On my computer I wouldn't even notice saving for .5GB.

Enable timer on the bottom of your PS. What does it show?
 
SushiEater wrote:
kelpdiver wrote:

The current hybrid drives (or any laptop class) from Seagate and WD are 5400. Only Toshiba is making 7200 rpm 2.5" drives now. I believe this was a requirement for one of the consolidation purchases - one of the big two had to sell the 2.5" division to Toshiba so there would be a third competitor.
How about this one? I have it in my laptop.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148837
prior generation - as noted on newegg's page:

There is a upgraded model of this item, go to the newer item

It also said "Not Available"

now the gen 2 generally performed slightly better overall, but at a higher cost than the gen 3s.
 
SushiEater wrote:

You have no idea what he is going to do in the future and he said he wants RAID and he wants it to last another 7 years or more. And he also said he would spend more money if necessary to do it. He just does not want to waste money. Raid is definitely not wasting money. It double capacity and double performance for the same money. Actually cheaper because larger drives (to a point) cost less than smaller drives.
Raid 0 does not double capacity for the same money, unless you're comparing to Raid1. Buying two drives means spending twice as much for twice the capacity. Or if the choice is between buying two 1TB drives to stripe or 1 2TB drive to store, you'll spend 60 or 70% more since the pricing isn't proportional between the two. (from 2 to 4 is closer to parity at current pricing).

doubling sequential read/write for large files != doubling performance. And you left out the part about halving reliability.

Cheap, fast, reliable - pick 2. RAID described in 5 words.

The OP is not going to be able to cheaply build a machine that will meet wildly changing needs in the next 7 years. You couldn't expensively build such a machine. What he's looking for is a sweet spot in the value proposition so this new machine will be reasonably usable for as long as possible.

The i5-3570 class quad core (no HTs), the included onboard graphics, a motherboard with a PCIx16 slot should later gfx needs warrant, 2x8gig dimms - this forms the core of the system. Storage is the variable - depending on how much capacity one needs. If one just does stills, it's much easier than if video is part of it. Most opt for the SSD + big data drive. The hybrid seems well suited to single spindle (laptop) or to save. Given the continuous trend towards cheaper SSDs (with 1tb drives now running ~600 from two makers), the hybrid may be a good choice now and he can add/switch to SSD later.
 
kelpdiver wrote:
SushiEater wrote:

You have no idea what he is going to do in the future and he said he wants RAID and he wants it to last another 7 years or more. And he also said he would spend more money if necessary to do it. He just does not want to waste money. Raid is definitely not wasting money. It double capacity and double performance for the same money. Actually cheaper because larger drives (to a point) cost less than smaller drives.
Raid 0 does not double capacity for the same money, unless you're comparing to Raid1. Buying two drives means spending twice as much for twice the capacity. Or if the choice is between buying two 1TB drives to stripe or 1 2TB drive to store, you'll spend 60 or 70% more since the pricing isn't proportional between the two. (from 2 to 4 is closer to parity at current pricing).

doubling sequential read/write for large files != doubling performance. And you left out the part about halving reliability.
Reliability just fine. You are making to big of the deal out of nothing. But comparing to performance it is definitely worth "risking" (notice the quotes because really there is no risk) using RAID 0. If Raid 0 was that bad no one would be using it. Yet lots of people using it because there is no other way to double performance. Almost every motherboard has that feature. Almost every manufacturer of external enclosure has enclosure that can do RAID. Do you really think they are stupid to include that option if no one is using it?
Cheap, fast, reliable - pick 2. RAID described in 5 words.
All 3!!!!!! You just simply can't get performance of the RAID 0 out of the single drive. Period.
The OP is not going to be able to cheaply build a machine that will meet wildly changing needs in the next 7 years.
He never said cheap!!! He said he doesn't want to spend extra if not necessary but will if it is. So stop fixating on cheap. You get what you pay for.
You couldn't expensively build such a machine. What he's looking for is a sweet spot in the value proposition so this new machine will be reasonably usable for as long as possible.
C'mon, extra $50-70 that is all that cost. If there was a choice of getting SSD and secondary HD or RAID 0, RAID wins every time. I can simulate SSD performance by never shutting down computer and only using sleep mode. Once software is loaded for the first time it will load significantly faster on the consecutive load. And so after the awake. And there is nothing you can say that change my mind because I have tested and re-tested this scenario many times.
The i5-3570 class quad core (no HTs), the included onboard graphics, a motherboard with a PCIx16 slot should later gfx needs warrant, 2x8gig dimms - this forms the core of the system. Storage is the variable - depending on how much capacity one needs. If one just does stills, it's much easier than if video is part of it. Most opt for the SSD + big data drive.
Not even close. Most just buy pre-built computers without SSD.
The hybrid seems well suited to single spindle (laptop) or to save. Given the continuous trend towards cheaper SSDs (with 1tb drives now running ~600 from two makers), the hybrid may be a good choice now and he can add/switch to SSD later.
OP already said that hybrid is not a good choice because 2 HD is RAID 0 cost the same or less and gets better performance. And OP is correct. Did you read?
 
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Instead of using that nasty four letter Raid word, what if there were three different drive choices:

#1 - 2 TB drive for $100 with a 154 MB/s write throughput

#2 - 1 TB drive for $240 with a 164 MB/s write throughput

#3 - 2 TB drive for $130 with a 316 MB/s write throughput

Which would you choose?
 
SushiEater wrote:

Reliability just fine. You are making to big of the deal out of nothing. But comparing to performance it is definitely worth "risking" (notice the quotes because really there is no risk) using RAID 0. If Raid 0 was that bad no one would be using it. Yet lots of people using it because there is no other way to double performance. Almost every motherboard has that feature. Almost every manufacturer of external enclosure has enclosure that can do RAID. Do you really think they are stupid to include that option if no one is using it?
Once a feature is created, it tends to last. Even if it's only being used by self proclaimed power users. BTW, you continue to be a bit sloppy with language- are people using the fakeraid chipsets to do striping? mirroring? both? RAID by itself means nothing.

And no, raid 0 is virtually unused in professional settings. My last two companies deal in petabytes of data for millions of customers. None of it in a non redundant RAID level. OTOH, mirroring is virtually a given - the service interruption of a lost server is a much bigger deal.
Cheap, fast, reliable - pick 2. RAID described in 5 words.
All 3!!!!!! You just simply can't get performance of the RAID 0 out of the single drive. Period.
no, you pick 2. R0 gives up reliability. R1 gives up cheap. R5 gives up fast. (Not as much as it used to, but it's still giving up performance to the others) Many will argue that R5 also gave up reliability since we went to multi terabyte arrays.

To insist otherwise is showing your inexperience. Or a lack of regard for your data.
C'mon, extra $50-70 that is all that cost. If there was a choice of getting SSD and secondary HD or RAID 0, RAID wins every time. I can simulate SSD performance by never shutting down computer and only using sleep mode. Once software is loaded for the first time it will load significantly faster on the consecutive load. And so after the awake. And there is nothing you can say that change my mind because I have tested and re-tested this scenario many times.
So rather than wave your hands around and claim "it works great, dude!" Put up your repeatable test scenario and results. Specifics are best.
OP already said that hybrid is not a good choice because 2 HD is RAID 0 cost the same or less and gets better performance. And OP is correct. Did you read?
He is likely mistaken, then. You can come up with use cases where it is true. Sequentual big file transfers are the winner, and particularly large writes. It's a great synthetic benchmark, but in actual use they are a minority. But this is again another example of being vague about the use case and showing what Malch is calling raiditis.

The OP is looking to spend wisely. KISS. What you propose is done by those throwing money in the hope of getting 5% more.
 
Ron AKA wrote:

Instead of using that nasty four letter Raid word, what if there were three different drive choices:

#1 - 2 TB drive for $100 with a 154 MB/s write throughput

#2 - 1 TB drive for $240 with a 164 MB/s write throughput

#3 - 2 TB drive for $130 with a 316 MB/s write throughput

Which would you choose?
uh, what are you writing? How often? What else are you doing? And how much of that 1 or 2 TB do you actually want to use?

You can't distill the choices to such simplicity.
 
Ron AKA wrote:

Instead of using that nasty four letter Raid word, what if there were three different drive choices:

#1 - 2 TB drive for $100 with a 154 MB/s write throughput

#2 - 1 TB drive for $240 with a 164 MB/s write throughput

#3 - 2 TB drive for $130 with a 316 MB/s write throughput

Which would you choose?
Those options don't make much sense to me. But...

With respect to capacity, it would depend on how much data I expect to be storing.

With respect to performance... I wouldn't be looking exclusively at sequential write performance. How often are you going to be writing out gigabyte files? I would be looking at average random access times which will be far more important in the scenarios you've outlined. And I would be looking at reliability because drive failures really are a huge PITA even if you have excellent backup arrangements in hand (and a real disaster if you haven't).
 
Or looking at reads:
#1 - 2 TB drive for $100 with a 155 MB/s read throughput

#2 - 1 TB drive for $240 with a 164 MB/s read throughput

#3 - 2 TB drive for $130 with a 318 MB/s read throughput

Seems to me at the end of the day that is what you are paying for, capacity and throughput. Makes sense to me to pick one the maximizes throughput, capacity, and minimizes cost. The obvious choice is #3. They are, based on Tom's Hardware tests:

#1 Seagate Barracuda, 7200 rpm, 2 TB

#2 WD VelociRaptor, 10,000 rpm, 1 TB

#3 Two Seagate Barracuda, 7200, 1 TB each in Raid 0

And I just doubled the 1 drive throughput for the Raid array, so it is just a placeholder, but from all comparisons I've seen it is in the ballpark.

On personal needs, 1 TB is a minimum, and 2 is lots (I now think..). I've just switched to shooting 21 MB raw images from 3-4000 kB JPEG's, so I'm expecting to see significantly higher need.
 
Ron AKA wrote:
Seems to me at the end of the day that is what you are paying for, capacity and throughput.
For me, and in most home/workstation settings, I think access times are hugely more important than sequential throughput.

On access time, the SSD wins hands down against HDD's (even in RAID 0).

The SSD isn't so great on $/GB but the nice thing is... you can use SSD for the system drive and items (like the Lightroom catalog) which can really benefit. Then when you examine the i/o requirements of your bulk data, the access and throughput requirements are very modest. That's perfect since you can then take advantage of low cost per GB technologies for your bulky data.

Once again, how often are you going to read/write gigabyte files? I probably do it a few times a day on average and don't find it a problem (without RAID). And aside from simple copy operations, RAID 0 isn't going to make it much faster because there's a bunch of processing involved even if that's only compression or decompression.

From time to time I've worked with 500GB decompressed video files and managed that just fine. Now, if that's something you want to do everyday, RAID 0 is probably appropriate. But that's pretty far removed from your original stated requirements :-)
 
Ron AKA wrote:
#1 Seagate Barracuda, 7200 rpm, 2 TB
#2 WD VelociRaptor, 10,000 rpm, 1 TB

#3 Two Seagate Barracuda, 7200, 1 TB each in Raid 0
I'd go for an SSD with either:

* 2TB Barracuda at $92 (B&H)

or

* Two 1TB Barracuda not in RAID. I didn't find a reputable source at $130 but they're $70 each at B&H.

There are some pro's and con's to those two scenarios. The first option is cheaper and allows for easier expansion. The second allows for some overlapped i/o (even without RAID) and splits your eggs across two baskets. On the downside, it doubles your component count and is a little more costly.
 
kelpdiver wrote:
SushiEater wrote:

Reliability just fine. You are making to big of the deal out of nothing. But comparing to performance it is definitely worth "risking" (notice the quotes because really there is no risk) using RAID 0. If Raid 0 was that bad no one would be using it. Yet lots of people using it because there is no other way to double performance. Almost every motherboard has that feature. Almost every manufacturer of external enclosure has enclosure that can do RAID. Do you really think they are stupid to include that option if no one is using it?
Once a feature is created, it tends to last.
Seriously????? Why bother to keep it if it is not popular?
Even if it's only being used by self proclaimed power users. BTW, you continue to be a bit sloppy with language- are people using the fakeraid chipsets to do striping? mirroring? both? RAID by itself means nothing.
Seriously?????
And no, raid 0 is virtually unused in professional settings. My last two companies deal in petabytes of data for millions of customers. None of it in a non redundant RAID level. OTOH, mirroring is virtually a given - the service interruption of a lost server is a much bigger deal.
I was not talking about commercial environment obviously but RAID 0 originated in that environment in commercial networks and it trickled down to home computers.
Cheap, fast, reliable - pick 2. RAID described in 5 words.
All 3!!!!!! You just simply can't get performance of the RAID 0 out of the single drive. Period.
no, you pick 2. R0 gives up reliability.
Only according to you. One one of my machines have 3 RAID 0, one internal and 2 external.

On the other 2 computers one internal each. No problems at all.
R1 gives up cheap. R5 gives up fast. (Not as much as it used to, but it's still giving up performance to the others) Many will argue that R5 also gave up reliability since we went to multi terabyte arrays.

To insist otherwise is showing your inexperience. Or a lack of regard for your data.
Actually a lot of experience and I back up my data religiously.
C'mon, extra $50-70 that is all that cost. If there was a choice of getting SSD and secondary HD or RAID 0, RAID wins every time. I can simulate SSD performance by never shutting down computer and only using sleep mode. Once software is loaded for the first time it will load significantly faster on the consecutive load. And so after the awake. And there is nothing you can say that change my mind because I have tested and re-tested this scenario many times.
So rather than wave your hands around and claim "it works great, dude!" Put up your repeatable test scenario and results. Specifics are best.
I already gave you specifics. Very simple. If you are slow to understand I will give you more details.

Just load PS6, for example. Unload it. Now load it again and time it. You will see that it loads almost instantly. Unload it. Now put you computer to sleep. Wake it up. Load PS6 again and it will load just as fast as the second time. And as long as you don't shut down your computer it will keep loading software very fast just like you would normally load it from SSD.
OP already said that hybrid is not a good choice because 2 HD is RAID 0 cost the same or less and gets better performance. And OP is correct. Did you read?
He is likely mistaken, then. You can come up with use cases where it is true. Sequentual big file transfers are the winner, and particularly large writes. It's a great synthetic benchmark, but in actual use they are a minority. But this is again another example of being vague about the use case and showing what Malch is calling raiditis.
No he is not mistaken. You should read first before replying. I am not going to do it for you.
The OP is looking to spend wisely. KISS. What you propose is done by those throwing money in the hope of getting 5% more.
More like 100% more. I read and write terabytes of data very often because I take over a 100K pictures, at least, every year all in RAW.
 
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SushiEater wrote:

I read and write terabytes of data very often because I take over a 100K pictures, at least, every year all in RAW.
Correct me if my math is wrong.

You take, on average, 274 pictures every day (including Saturdays and Sundays)? Given a workday of 8 hours, the time to take one photo AND post-process the RAW file would average something like 105 seconds.

It must be very minimal post-processing no matter how quickly the computer loads and saves files…
 
SushiEater wrote:

Just load PS6, for example. Unload it. Now load it again and time it. You will see that it loads almost instantly. Unload it. Now put you computer to sleep. Wake it up. Load PS6 again and it will load just as fast as the second time.
Do you know why?
And as long as you don't shut down your computer it will keep loading software very fast just like you would normally load it from SSD.
Nope. It depends what other work you do in the meantime. Just because most of the CS6 files are cached in RAM doesn't mean they will stay there indefinitely. They won't. They will get discarded over time in favor of other more recently used files. With suitable tools you can manually flush the cache of memory mapped files too.

Your little test says nothing about the performance of the attached SSD, HDD, or RAID array. It is merely a demonstration of the Windows file system caching which is actually quite good. Of course, the benefits of the caching will be more apparent on physically slow storage devices and less so on faster ones like SSD's.
 
I shoot with 2 cameras ( I have 3 cameras) on the red carpets and after parties, conventions, events every week. Plus for my own pleasure too. It is not very difficult to shoot 2K pictures per week. I used to shoot more but because focusing system on D800 and 5D3 is so much better now I don't have to machine gun it to get few in focus. So I am more selective now.

I know photogs who shoot more than me.

You are correct I do minimal processing on most pictures and a lot of processing on some but processing is not everything. I need to be able to open D800 RAW file as fast as possible. I need to copy files from CF cards to HD as fast as possible. I need to organize folders and copy pictures in to folders as fast as possible and that is there RAID 0 helps. Plus I have to burn Bluerays while doing processing. That is there Raid 0 and fast computer helps a lot.
 
malch wrote:
SushiEater wrote:

Just load PS6, for example. Unload it. Now load it again and time it. You will see that it loads almost instantly. Unload it. Now put you computer to sleep. Wake it up. Load PS6 again and it will load just as fast as the second time.
Do you know why?
Yes, I know why.
And as long as you don't shut down your computer it will keep loading software very fast just like you would normally load it from SSD.
Nope. It depends what other work you do in the meantime. Just because most of the CS6 files are cached in RAM doesn't mean they will stay there indefinitely. They won't. They will get discarded over time in favor of other more recently used files. With suitable tools you can manually flush the cache of memory mapped files too.
Yep, if I use the same software every day, several times per day, it never gets discarded.

Your little test says nothing about the performance of the attached SSD, HDD, or RAID array. It is merely a demonstration of the Windows file system caching which is actually quite good. Of course, the benefits of the caching will be more apparent on physically slow storage devices and less so on faster ones like SSD's.
The bottom line one does not have to have SSD to have fast loading of software as long as one keeps system on and uses sleep mode instead of shutdown. And boot is instant (more or less) from the sleep mode.
 
SushiEater wrote:

Nope. It depends what other work you do in the meantime. Just because most of the CS6 files are cached in RAM doesn't mean they will stay there indefinitely. They won't. They will get discarded over time in favor of other more recently used files. With suitable tools you can manually flush the cache of memory mapped files too.

Yep, if I use the same software every day, several times per day, it never gets discarded.
It depends what else you do on the system. If you actually use it to do real work, the cached files can soon be discarded.

I loaded CS6 and quit. Most of CS6 was cached. A one line program and a few seconds and CS6 was gone (confirmed by SysInternals RAMMap). CS6 only remains in cache until Windows decides it has a better use for that RAM which won't be long if you're using other memory hungry apps.

Memory mapped files are great. But it's just a cache, using the fastest and most expensive storage technology (RAM). The slower your physical file system storage the better it looks; so it does more for HDD data than it does for SSD data. But it says nothing about the performance of your disks (SSD, HDD, or RAID).
 
SushiEater wrote:
kelpdiver wrote:

Once a feature is created, it tends to last.
Seriously????? Why bother to keep it if it is not popular?
Seriously?

Given a choice of a motherboard with 10 features commonly used, or one with those 10 features and 30 uncommon ones, guess which one sells better? People like options, or sometimes they just like shiny knobs (hint). How long did Canon keep that useless print button on their cameras? Is anyone out there really plugging their camera directly into a printer to print photos? That button could have been so much more useful doing something (anything!) else.

It costs virtually nothing to keep around the old stuff. Simple regression tests and you're good to go.
I was not talking about commercial environment obviously but RAID 0 originated in that environment in commercial networks and it trickled down to home computers.
Your data should be treated just as well as a commercial environment would, at least in terms of reliability. The home user can (likely) afford a longer outage window, but losing your last week's worth of edits (because of your backup schedule) should be unacceptable.
no, you pick 2. R0 gives up reliability.
Only according to you. One one of my machines have 3 RAID 0, one internal and 2 external.

On the other 2 computers one internal each. No problems at all.
don't confuse lack of incidents as being reliable. Running a 10% chance of losing the array isn't reliable to me, You may deem it reliable enough, but there's no question it's less reliable than the single disk or the mirror.
Actually a lot of experience and I back up my data religiously.
daily? hourly? R0 means the potential loss of everything since the last backup.
More like 100% more. I read and write terabytes of data very often because I take over a 100K pictures, at least, every year all in RAW.
you only get that 100% improvement when doing simple copies. And the 840 Pro is faster at doing that as well. You need to go to a 4 stripe mirror just to catch up to one of them.

malch already demonstrated that you are cpu bound on the raw processing. That is a meaningful benchmark, not CS6 load times.
 
kelpdiver wrote:

malch already demonstrated that you are cpu bound on the raw processing. That is a meaningful benchmark, not CS6 load times.
And by the way, that didn't include any really heavy lifting like noise reduction, lens corrections and the like which will increase the CPU load by dramatic increments.
 

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