RAW vs JPEG (PIC)

[Glenn W.]

So show me some good refferances to someone who has done something resembling a scientific study that would lead a reasonable

person to conclude that you can't expect a DVD-R to last more then a couple years. Now I'm talking quality DVD-R media recorded and verified on good quality equipment by someone who knows what they are doing.

I've seen the comments from folks saying something like.... I can't read 4 of the 100 CD-Rs I burned two years ago... I don't condisder that to be of much value.

I burn both DVD and CD. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now.
Never had any problems... I don't expect them to last forever...
just untill something better come along...

If that's longer than 2 years or so .... you may find you've
already lost valuable photos.

If your keeping all your stuff on HD, I trust you have at least two
copies and the original...

Two copies. Very unlikely that both hard drives will crash at the
same time.

one copy stored off site and/or in a
fireproof climate controled enviornment...

That's what my dvd backups are for. And since I keep it off site,
and since NONE of my backups are the "only source" -- I'm not
worried about needing a fireproof safe.

If my house burns and both hard drives and my house kept dvd's burn
up -- then I have my dvd's kept at work.

I've been working with computers and electronics for 20 years
now... I'm fully aware of the pros and cons of most types of
afordable storage.

Which is surprising considering your using CD's and DVD's as long
term storage solutions.

Lee

 

[Daniella68313]

yes I agree but that huge amount of space. for now that'S what I do, until I figure out what to do with the RAW and if I need it, but I end up with like 15 meg per image.

that'S a 2 sharp-sided knive though. if you don't let the camera
do it, then you loose the ability to use the DIGI II fine
conversion.

Not if you shoot RAW+JPG.

Lee

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[Daniella68313]

in deed..look at the eye of that insect? the raw conversion made
the highlight in the eye very harsh..it is smooth in the .jpg and
will remain smooth in printing:

The raw file is sharpened much more everywhere else as well. Turn
down the sharpening on the raw file and try again.

no that's the thing..it is not sharper else where.

Lee

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[Daniella68313]

well this photo show exactly why I am more happy with the .jpg. not sure how to up it but I find the image flat and the colours muddy. A matter of personal taste I would say but I am sure in that case I would have prefered the jpg.

I'm not one to presume to teach you anything about getting the best
out of a photo. The output is the measure of success and who can
argue with your output?'

Here's one of my "shot in raw"



Yet you can blow this photo away with any of a number of your
excellent bird shots.

However, I have seen the improvements in MY photos.

BTW, when you convert with RAW -- do you then further process the
jpg? If you don't like the sharpening in the raw converter....why
not sharpen the jpg?

Again, the results is all that matter



In the above photo, what matters is the expression on the faces,
the capture of a moment -- the emotion of the photo. I shot with
raw -- but do I think an in camera jpg is incapable? Not at all.

I have a hard time with the concept of you not being able to get
good colors when you shoot raw -- but whatever works for you is all
that matters when you get the results you get.

As an event shooter, the pace goes so fast, and the lighting
changes, that I cannot guarantee that on every shot I'll have the
optimum exposure and wb. RAW helps.

Lee

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[photoguynorth]

most of the doom and gloom quotes date back to a study several years ago, that stated some media could lose data in as little as 6 months. They didn't say what media - but it was clear from the article that cheap media is bad (big surprise).

Blank media is very cheap (even quality brands), so I burn 3 copies of each. I check all copies form time to time, and if I ever get a bad disk I'll make another copy from one of the other sets. The ONLY failures I've ever had were on discount media.

If someone trusts hard drives as the only backup, then they will learn. Someday. If you use hard drives as part of a backup strategy, then that is a good thing.
--
Come and look at my ego site (I mean website)
http://www.outnumbered.ca

 

[Daniella68313]

So show me some good refferances to someone who has done something
resembling a scientific study that would lead a reasonable
person to conclude that you can't expect a DVD-R to last more then
a couple years.

easy..I have some DVD that can't be read anylonger. they are about 4 years old. some can be read, some cannot. My cd have the same problem but seems to be more varied, some are like 7 year old and still working, some are one year and not working. that's why I make 2 copies of all my images on DVD and still have them on the harddisk.

Now I'm talking quality DVD-R media recorded and

verified on good quality equipment by someone who knows what they
are doing.

you better get some serious data on the life expectancy of DVD and CD..as they are not immortal..

I've seen the comments from folks saying something like.... I can't
read 4 of the 100 CD-Rs I burned two years ago... I don't
condisder that to be of much value.

I burn both DVD and CD. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now.
Never had any problems... I don't expect them to last forever...
just untill something better come along...

If that's longer than 2 years or so .... you may find you've
already lost valuable photos.

If your keeping all your stuff on HD, I trust you have at least two
copies and the original...

Two copies. Very unlikely that both hard drives will crash at the
same time.

one copy stored off site and/or in a
fireproof climate controled enviornment...

That's what my dvd backups are for. And since I keep it off site,
and since NONE of my backups are the "only source" -- I'm not
worried about needing a fireproof safe.

If my house burns and both hard drives and my house kept dvd's burn
up -- then I have my dvd's kept at work.

I've been working with computers and electronics for 20 years
now... I'm fully aware of the pros and cons of most types of
afordable storage.

Which is surprising considering your using CD's and DVD's as long
term storage solutions.

Lee

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[LeeBase]

no that's the thing..it is not sharper else where.

To my eyes the whole picture is quite a bit sharper, most noticeable in the wings. Try moving the sharpness to 0 and reprocessing.

Lee

 

[Daniella68313]

just handling the DVD with greasy fingers can ruine them or writing on them with stong ink might do it over time. they need to be stored in a cool dry place to stay good as long as possible.

most of the doom and gloom quotes date back to a study several
years ago, that stated some media could lose data in as little as 6
months. They didn't say what media - but it was clear from the
article that cheap media is bad (big surprise).
Blank media is very cheap (even quality brands), so I burn 3 copies
of each. I check all copies form time to time, and if I ever get a
bad disk I'll make another copy from one of the other sets. The
ONLY failures I've ever had were on discount media.
If someone trusts hard drives as the only backup, then they will
learn. Someday. If you use hard drives as part of a backup
strategy, then that is a good thing.

I agree, I would not trust hard disk as only source of backup. also keeping a DVD copy at another location is wise in case of fire.

--
Come and look at my ego site (I mean website)
http://www.outnumbered.ca

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[Daniella68313]

no that's the thing..it is not sharper else where.

To my eyes the whole picture is quite a bit sharper, most
noticeable in the wings. Try moving the sharpness to 0 and
reprocessing.

well not what I see on my monitor but I have tried to lower the sharpness on the raw and sharpen the .jpg more and still the eye has better gradiant.

Lee

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[LeeBase]

I'm looking for the opposite. I want to see proof that the DVD's last. I want to see companies putting their name behind a warranty. At this point, I can't even find a DVD supplier that advertises it's product as "archive worthy".

I'm quite content to use them as backups. I'm not ready to use them as the only source.

Lee

I've seen the comments from folks saying something like.... I can't
read 4 of the 100 CD-Rs I burned two years ago... I don't
condisder that to be of much value.

I burn both DVD and CD. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now.
Never had any problems... I don't expect them to last forever...
just untill something better come along...

If that's longer than 2 years or so .... you may find you've
already lost valuable photos.

If your keeping all your stuff on HD, I trust you have at least two
copies and the original...

Two copies. Very unlikely that both hard drives will crash at the
same time.

one copy stored off site and/or in a
fireproof climate controled enviornment...

That's what my dvd backups are for. And since I keep it off site,
and since NONE of my backups are the "only source" -- I'm not
worried about needing a fireproof safe.

If my house burns and both hard drives and my house kept dvd's burn
up -- then I have my dvd's kept at work.

I've been working with computers and electronics for 20 years
now... I'm fully aware of the pros and cons of most types of
afordable storage.

Which is surprising considering your using CD's and DVD's as long
term storage solutions.

Lee

 

[LeeBase]

If someone trusts hard drives as the only backup, then they will
learn. Someday.

That's not what I advocate. The only difference between me and the other guy is that I don't remove my photos from my drive after I back them up to DVD.

Lee

 

[photoguynorth]

That's partly why I stuck that paragraph in there.

If someone trusts hard drives as the only backup, then they will
learn. Someday.

That's not what I advocate. The only difference between me and the
other guy is that I don't remove my photos from my drive after I
back them up to DVD.

Lee

--
Come and look at my ego site (I mean website)
http://www.outnumbered.ca

 

[Daniella68313]

how you can see the image on the right as sharper. I see softer than the .jpg on the left. I have asked people here to pick the sharpest and both have picked the one on the left viewed from both regular monitor and flat screen sharp monitor. this is really wierd.

no that's the thing..it is not sharper else where.

To my eyes the whole picture is quite a bit sharper, most
noticeable in the wings. Try moving the sharpness to 0 and
reprocessing.

well not what I see on my monitor but I have tried to lower the
sharpness on the raw and sharpen the .jpg more and still the eye
has better gradiant.

Lee

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send
them to me via email instead! thanks.

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[Glenn W.]

I don't expect DVD-R or CD-R, or simmilar to be immortal...

I've searched... and so far what I see is that given good media, good recording, and reasonable care and storage, you can get much better then a couple years... In fact I've seen nothing other then individuals like yourself who've said they have some that can't be read... Yeah, well what caused this? There's no reason for me to beleive that there is something inherintly wrong with quality DVD-R media.

I'll migrate to the next media when it becomes afordable, and keep mulitple copies of what I've got in the mean time... However I don't really feel like I need or want to keep multiple copies of my data on HD. Yes I may keep some of my best photos on HD too... but I don't really plan on using my HD as long term storage for everything I've ever shot. That's both totaly impractical and totaly unnessasary.

So show me some good refferances to someone who has done something
resembling a scientific study that would lead a reasonable
person to conclude that you can't expect a DVD-R to last more then
a couple years.

easy..I have some DVD that can't be read anylonger. they are about
4 years old. some can be read, some cannot. My cd have the same
problem but seems to be more varied, some are like 7 year old and
still working, some are one year and not working. that's why I
make 2 copies of all my images on DVD and still have them on the
harddisk.

Now I'm talking quality DVD-R media recorded and

verified on good quality equipment by someone who knows what they
are doing.

you better get some serious data on the life expectancy of DVD and
CD..as they are not immortal..

I've seen the comments from folks saying something like.... I can't
read 4 of the 100 CD-Rs I burned two years ago... I don't
condisder that to be of much value.

 

[Daniella68313]

http://engadget.com/entry/1234000360028140/

I'm quite content to use them as backups. I'm not ready to use
them as the only source.

Lee

I've seen the comments from folks saying something like.... I can't
read 4 of the 100 CD-Rs I burned two years ago... I don't
condisder that to be of much value.

I burn both DVD and CD. I've been doing it for 3 or 4 years now.
Never had any problems... I don't expect them to last forever...
just untill something better come along...

If that's longer than 2 years or so .... you may find you've
already lost valuable photos.

If your keeping all your stuff on HD, I trust you have at least two
copies and the original...

Two copies. Very unlikely that both hard drives will crash at the
same time.

one copy stored off site and/or in a
fireproof climate controled enviornment...

That's what my dvd backups are for. And since I keep it off site,
and since NONE of my backups are the "only source" -- I'm not
worried about needing a fireproof safe.

If my house burns and both hard drives and my house kept dvd's burn
up -- then I have my dvd's kept at work.

I've been working with computers and electronics for 20 years
now... I'm fully aware of the pros and cons of most types of
afordable storage.

Which is surprising considering your using CD's and DVD's as long
term storage solutions.

Lee

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[photoguynorth]

Not because the media isn't good enough, but it does not take much to leave yourself open to lawsuits if a disk fails. Common sense should prevail - even an 'archival' disk can fail. I'd never trust any important data to one copy of anything. Nor would I stick it away and forget about it. But that does not mean you won't get years of safe storage from a DVD (or 2, or even better 3 copies). Right now I have CDs and DVDs - and everything is on both.

I'm looking for the opposite. I want to see proof that the DVD's
last. I want to see companies putting their name behind a
warranty. At this point, I can't even find a DVD supplier that
advertises it's product as "archive worthy".

I'm quite content to use them as backups. I'm not ready to use
them as the only source.

Lee

--
Come and look at my ego site (I mean website)
http://www.outnumbered.ca

 

[LeeBase]

http://engadget.com/entry/1234000360028140/

It's about time. I'd searched before and hadn't found any. In the press release I found this:

"Maxell has combined a number of technology improvements to ensure long-term data integrity in developing an ultra-durable DVD solution that delivers twice the archival and storage life compared to standard DVDs."

No reference to how long "the normal" lifespan is, but this archival is only aiming at "twice that long".

I think I'll keep all my photos on my hard drives, in addition to the DVD's.

Lee

 

[Steven in Wgong]

A guy I work with has 1.3 Terabytes of disk storage devoted to digital photos in a server array.

Thats 1300 Gig

Yes, he's an IT worker - his wife is the photographer.

So there is your solution, marry a network administrator who can scale your storage to your needs:

http://www.sun.com/storage/

For a mere $245,947.00 you can get up to 330 Terabytes of storage (approx 27,500,000 RAW images ?)

 

[Daniella68313]

I don't expect DVD-R or CD-R, or simmilar to be immortal...

I've searched... and so far what I see is that given good media,
good recording, and reasonable care and storage, you can get much
better then a couple years... In fact I've seen nothing other then
individuals like yourself who've said they have some that can't be
read... Yeah, well what caused this? There's no reason for me to
beleive that there is something inherintly wrong with quality DVD-R
media.

anything can ause the dye to degrade..too hot temperature, fingerprint, oil from the finger, air spray for odor, you name it, even the ink from a marker.

I'll migrate to the next media when it becomes afordable, and keep
mulitple copies of what I've got in the mean time... However I
don't really feel like I need or want to keep multiple copies of my
data on HD. Yes I may keep some of my best photos on HD too... but
I don't really plan on using my HD as long term storage for
everything I've ever shot. That's both totaly impractical and
totaly unnessasary.

So show me some good refferances to someone who has done something
resembling a scientific study that would lead a reasonable
person to conclude that you can't expect a DVD-R to last more then
a couple years.

easy..I have some DVD that can't be read anylonger. they are about
4 years old. some can be read, some cannot. My cd have the same
problem but seems to be more varied, some are like 7 year old and
still working, some are one year and not working. that's why I
make 2 copies of all my images on DVD and still have them on the
harddisk.

Now I'm talking quality DVD-R media recorded and

verified on good quality equipment by someone who knows what they
are doing.

you better get some serious data on the life expectancy of DVD and
CD..as they are not immortal..

I've seen the comments from folks saying something like.... I can't
read 4 of the 100 CD-Rs I burned two years ago... I don't
condisder that to be of much value.

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[Daniella68313]

but then again the reviewers sayd that it's hard to test that it will outlive someone..will take quite some time to test if it is true or not and by that time they will be lots of new media.

http://engadget.com/entry/1234000360028140/

It's about time. I'd searched before and hadn't found any. In the
press release I found this:

"Maxell has combined a number of technology improvements to ensure
long-term data integrity in developing an ultra-durable DVD
solution that delivers twice the archival and storage life compared
to standard DVDs."

No reference to how long "the normal" lifespan is, but this
archival is only aiming at "twice that long".

I think I'll keep all my photos on my hard drives, in addition to
the DVD's.

Lee

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.