Let's reverse the narrative and see what happens logically.

- smaller sensors have greater photosite density, allowing you to record more detail with a given focal length (the "reach" issue).
Why does a "given focal length" matter?
For a photographer willing to buy/carry so much lens and no more.
So when I walk around with my 24-105, you will take the same lens on m43?
I thought it was obvious I was talking about telephoto reach. I'm sure you've been around long enough to have seen the debate many times.

Elsewhere, you seem to get it, as you talk about tele lenses not delivering detail due to diffraction, even though I've seen plenty of terrifically sharp m43 and APS-C shots taken with f/4 and f/5.6-f/6.3 teles.

Of course, FF is reaching competitive pixel density (at a price, for now) and Nikon, Canon and Sony have little incentive to keep APS-C competitive, so it may be that the pixel density advantage that crop sensors have enjoyed is seeing its last days.

And, as you mentioned elsewhere, you have Canon offering affordable, slow teles that make it more reasonable for a crop shooter to move without having to go considerably bigger/more expensive.

For now, though, I shoot backyard wildlife with an RX10 III (220/4 equivalent to 600/11) and a D7500 with a 100-400/4.5-6.3 (equivalent to 600/9.5). Both give me sharp enough results to print as big as I'd need, though the DSLR gives me sharper images (and focuses faster and more reliably, but never mind that). The RX10 was $700+ as an open box model; the D7500 and lens cost around $1500 combined. I'm not a $3000 FF buyer, so I'd be looking at 24MP. I could find a D750 used/refurbished for a reasonable enough price. Then I'd be looking at 11MP crops. The difference isn't going to be 20MP versus 11MP (50% linear increase) ... even with the sharpest Otus lens, you don't get a 50% increase in detail from a 50% increase in pixels.
Again, pixels are not resolution. Are you getting your pixels worth with the smaller sensor? To put it in a different way, what if you upscale that 11mp to 20mp. Is it going to be softer than a photo taken with a smaller sensor?

BTW, in the just posted Slideshow: 2021 Bird Photographer of the Year finalists all photos but two are taken with FF or APS-C. Those two are taken with m43 cameras and a 20mm lens and a fisheye!
 
Pop-up flash.

A sensor with very tight pixel pitch to capture more detail in small subjects using shorter, lighter, less costly lenses. A full frame sensor would need a pixel count of close to 150mp to match it.

Electronic shutter with 1/16,000s top speed and a transit time of 1/80s, allowing up to 60fps bursts. There are full frame bodies with similar capabilities, but at a huge cost premium.
I assume you are talking about a 20mp 1" sensor?
No. 18mp 1".
A full frame sensor would need 150mp to match the pixel pitch,
It's 130mp with my camera.
but you don't have good enough lenses to take advantage of it,
You don't know what lenses I have. Besides, it's a well established fact that almost all lenses, unless they're pretty bad, reap a benefit from smaller pixel pitch sensors in terms of detail. Denying that leads nowhere.
so the FF can record the same detail with a lot less than 150mp.
How much less in your estimation? I'm curious.
More important than pixel pitch is pixel count.
More important to whom for what?
You may have smaller pixels, but you still only have 20mp so your image resolution is less than pretty much every FF camera
I don't need more than 18mp. More would be overkill for my purposes. What I value is more of those pixels working under the small subject, and without my having to use a bigger, more expensive camera and a bigger, more expensive lens in order to get them.

It seems hard for you and some others here to understand that not everyone values the same factors that you value, so you somehow feel compelled to invent objections to even the most easily demonstrable advantages of cameras with small, high density sensors.
 
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Then I'd be looking at 11MP crops. The difference isn't going to be 20MP versus 11MP (50% linear increase) ... even with the sharpest Otus lens, you don't get a 50% increase in detail from a 50% increase in pixels.
Again, pixels are not resolution. Are you getting your pixels worth with the smaller sensor?
That's what I wondered, too ...
BTW, in the just posted Slideshow: 2021 Bird Photographer of the Year finalists all photos but two are taken with FF or APS-C.
Sure, serious photographerps are going to be willing to carry the necessary lenses.

- Dennis
--

Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
On the other hand, when I want to take a nice camera rig with 24-120 eq. on a motorcycle trip, FF takes up so much room in luggage it's not reasonable.
it is indeed a nice example of why m43 offers a nice set of compromises for certain niche uses by some people ... are you using Panasonic 12-60
Yes, the slow one, f/3.5-5.6, I think.
and then why not Olympus 12-100 ?
Because the Olympus 12-100 is big bucks. I'm thinking also maybe not as sharp?
 
...is that folks think equivalence is a tool to determine a winner in a comparison of different format systems. It's not. Equivalence is a tool for determining which focal lengths and settings to use to make equivalent photos with different format cameras. That's it.
Spot on!
 
Pop-up flash.

A sensor with very tight pixel pitch to capture more detail in small subjects using shorter, lighter, less costly lenses. A full frame sensor would need a pixel count of close to 150mp to match it.

Electronic shutter with 1/16,000s top speed and a transit time of 1/80s, allowing up to 60fps bursts. There are full frame bodies with similar capabilities, but at a huge cost premium.
I assume you are talking about a 20mp 1" sensor?
No. 18mp 1".
A full frame sensor would need 150mp to match the pixel pitch,
It's 130mp with my camera.
but you don't have good enough lenses to take advantage of it,
You don't know what lenses I have.
I don't need to know what lenses you have, I know what lenses exist.
Besides, it's a well established fact that almost all lenses, unless they're pretty bad, reap a benefit from smaller pixel pitch sensors in terms of detail. Denying that leads nowhere.
It is also a fact that those benefits are subject to diminishing returns as pixel size decreases, and that the resolution of smaller sensors is limited by diffraction and noise at relatively moderate settings.
so the FF can record the same detail with a lot less than 150mp.
How much less in your estimation? I'm curious.
I haven't tested, but I doubt your 18mp shots would have noticeably better detail than a crop from any of the current high MP full frame cameras with a good lens.
More important than pixel pitch is pixel count.
More important to whom for what?
You may have smaller pixels, but you still only have 20mp so your image resolution is less than pretty much every FF camera
I don't need more than 18mp. More would be overkill for my purposes. What I value is more of those pixels working under the small subject, and without my having to use a bigger, more expensive camera and a bigger, more expensive lens in order to get them.

It seems hard for you and some others here to understand that not everyone values the same factors that you value, so you somehow feel compelled to invent objections to even the most easily demonstrable advantages of cameras with small, high density sensors.
Where are these advantages demonstrated, do you have any side by side tests?

I don't feel compelled to invent objections, but I do think that the benefits of small pixels are overstated by small camera fans who latch on to the one specification where they can claim superiority.
 
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Anyone that denies the portability and bulk\weight advantage of MFT compared to FF is deluding himself. "I don't mind carrying it" or "I just carry a smaller kit" is not the same.

Having the option of a smaller super-tele rig is nice.

Likewise, anyone who denies the better IQ of FF is deluding himself. I notice the reduced DoF immediately. F/5.6 on FF actually offers some selective focus, while on MFT it might as well be f/16.

On the other hand, when I want to take a nice camera rig with 24-120 eq. on a motorcycle trip, FF takes up so much room in luggage it's not reasonable.
There are a lot of very lightweight Full Frame body/lens combinations now, though it's true they don't quite reach the same level of compactness as Crop sensor systems yet.

On the other hand M4/3 has practically no advantages over APS-C.

APS-C is the best system.
 
The problem is the discussion rarely gets past counting mpx and comparing metrics between formats.
When it comes to taking photographs in most situations the various advantages/disadvantages are not so marked as the metrics seem to imply. In short it’s really hard to tell the differences between formats by looking at images.
BTW I don’t see there is a consensus on what good image quality actually is, or whether that is more important that the content of an image.
I’m not convinced that the most resolution, DR, sharpness, lowest noise etc is the same thing as the best image quality. If anything and IMHO the current IQ debate is an argument about what is fashionable as a look and what is marketable as a product.
Look back far enough through film and digital there is plenty of outstanding images and examples of excellent image quality that stand today. Better is something that has become a technical comparison of image production rather than photography and a pointless distraction from the artistry and craft of photography. We seem to live in a world of mainly banal photographs that are forgiven because they have a given look.
For me there is too much BS spoken about IQ and formats. If we insisted on competitions showing images and judged them by their artistic content these forums would largely be quiet and poorly subscribed too.
 
The truth is, IBIS is MUCH easier to implement with a smaller sensor. I've read that the Olympus 5 axis IBIS has gotten to the point where the next step in IBIS is to account for the rotation of the earth.
Apart from astro I don't see why it needs to be taken into account anyway. You might want to double check your source.
The source is Olympus promotional material. It's veracity can be judged that after they claimed that their IBIS was as good as it could get, due to this factor, they went on to claim improved IBIS in subsequent models.
 
I'm invested 50/50% in crop and FF. My crop cameras and lenses are "more cute" looking especially when they sit next to other objects to exhibit the relative size. To me cute is an advantage. By osmosis it makes ME feel cuter, and at 62 y/o I need all the help I can get.
 
... can you think of other things FF lacks compared to your system of choice?
Pop-up flash.

A sensor with very tight pixel pitch to capture more detail in small subjects using shorter, lighter, less costly lenses. A full frame sensor would need a pixel count of close to 150mp to match it.

Electronic shutter with 1/16,000s top speed and a transit time of 1/80s, allowing up to 60fps bursts. There are full frame bodies with similar capabilities, but at a huge cost premium.
NEWS FLASH: way to be a buzzkill to this thread sybersitizen. :p
 
The problem is the discussion rarely gets past counting mpx and comparing metrics between formats.
When it comes to taking photographs in most situations the various advantages/disadvantages are not so marked as the metrics seem to imply. In short it’s really hard to tell the differences between formats by looking at images.
BTW I don’t see there is a consensus on what good image quality actually is, or whether that is more important that the content of an image.
I’m not convinced that the most resolution, DR, sharpness, lowest noise etc is the same thing as the best image quality. If anything and IMHO the current IQ debate is an argument about what is fashionable as a look and what is marketable as a product.
Look back far enough through film and digital there is plenty of outstanding images and examples of excellent image quality that stand today. Better is something that has become a technical comparison of image production rather than photography and a pointless distraction from the artistry and craft of photography. We seem to live in a world of mainly banal photographs that are forgiven because they have a given look.
For me there is too much BS spoken about IQ and formats. If we insisted on competitions showing images and judged them by their artistic content these forums would largely be quiet and poorly subscribed too.
Shoot professionally for a few years and then come back with your comments, I can guarantee it will be quite the opposite to this post :-)

Don
 
There was logic 6 years ago ,but not anymore with Sony and third party lens manufacturers.

Don

 
When you use the word 'logically' you raise the stakes somewhat. Ever heard of the fallay of the illicit negative? It means that your reasoning is based on false premises. So, let's look at what you wrote from that perspective.
When discussing "Crop" cameras compared to "FF", we always view it from an exclusive, "What crop cameras lack, compared to FF" POV.
Who is 'we'. Do 'we' really 'always do this? Not that I'm aware/
But I think when we view it from a "What FF lacks compared to crop cameras, it becomes less clear. And the issue is rarely viewed from that perspective.

Full disclosure, I am a satisfied Olympus m43s user, and I believe that the m43s, and Fuji communities (including the manufacturers) have done a terrible job in trying to steer the narrative in their favor. I'm going to use what I know best, which is the Olympus m43s system as an example, but from everything I've read, much of this applies to Fuji cameras as well as the seemingly abandoned crop cameras of Canon and Nikon as well (at least theoretically, we can't account for Canikon's marketing decisions).

M43s offers a significant Depth of Focus advantage over FF, allowing more forgiveness of sloppy focus techniques. Useful in birding, news, and other action photography. When I need a shallow DOF, there are workarounds, not only including larger, heavier, faster, lenses, but longer lenses, and software solutions. In the meantime, though VERY small and very good lenses, both kit and pro level, and some in between, are available for the times when DOF is not an issue.
This premise is false. mFT does not have a depth of field advantage. In fact it's at a disadvantage, because whilst FF can achieve as deep a DOF as mFT, up until diffraction blurring is a significant issue, FF can offer shallower DOF, so it allows a wider range of DOF effects. That's to its advantage. Your statement relies itself on two false premises. One is that deep DOF is somehow 'better' than shallow DOF, and second, that an FF camera cannot be stopped down.
The truth is, IBIS is MUCH easier to implement with a smaller sensor. I've read that the Olympus 5 axis IBIS has gotten to the point where the next step in IBIS is to account for the rotation of the earth. I don't think that advantage is going away. And in my opinion, THAT also mitigates at least some of the advantages of a larger sensor.
This premise is false. IBIS may be a bit easier, but it's not enormously significant.
Noise, and dynamic range is quite good on my E-M5 III (and my E-M10 II, FTM). I concede FFs extreme low light capability, but up to about ISO 6400 it simply is not an issue, particularly when viewed through the perspective of a wildlife and action photographer.
It's simply not an issue for you. It certainly is for some other people. We have seen some very well known people on the mFT forum make the transition to FF and who now claim the get noticeable image quality improvements at low ISOs.
The truth is, I will stack my m43s photos against any other brand of camera (FF, & smaller) out there in normal viewing situations. But I will have the advantage of size, weight, cost, and reduced camera movement 95% of the time.
That might be true, but what you are willing to do really doesn't add much to your argument. You might be willing to do some very silly things indeed, we just don't know.
Context is everything, Crop camera users (esp non m43s users) can you think of other things FF lacks compared to your system of choice? I'm genuinely NOT interested starting a flame war, though I concede it is possible if people think with their backsides and not their brains.
I have two systems of choice. One is mFT, the other is FF. I think they are different horses for different course. I wouldn't argue that either is in any absolute sense 'better' than the other.
But I'd like to see the reasons you continue to use your crop system cameras.
I can't see where the 'logically' bit came in.
 
Personal experience will always be subjective. I have shot professionally on and off, weddings and corporate events but not recently.
My opinions for what they are worth are based on looking at the work of people like Don Mcullen, or Daido Moriyama. Oddly enough they don’t tend to say very much about their gear.

There is almost an endless visual biography of great work out there but for most all they ever talk about is their sensors and why their camera is better. That is pretty low risk and easy. That kind of success is based on your pocket not on skill.
 
I travel alot by motorcycle, for me the choice of APS-C over FF is due to size but also cost / risk factor.

The financial hit of a slip or small crash would be way more severe if I'm carrying 5k+ worth of gear on top of a 13k motorcycle, and It seems overkill to me to be looking insurances for holiday travel photography.

At the studio, at work, we try to use what's best for the job so we have different cameras and brands. We use the D810 for expo-size prints and catalogue work, an a6400 for youtube, RX100III for top view (I steal it for international business travels), a cheap D5600 for 90-shots 360° degrees product view.

I bought an a6400 for home/ personal travel because I stop to shoot often, and taking off my helmet, cowl etc. was too annoying (used to have a D7500, a D5500 and a D70s before all).
 
I travel alot by motorcycle, for me the choice of APS-C over FF is due to size but also cost / risk factor.

The financial hit of a slip or small crash would be way more severe if I'm carrying 5k+ worth of gear on top of a 13k motorcycle, and It seems overkill to me to be looking insurances for holiday travel photography.

At the studio, at work, we try to use what's best for the job so we have different cameras and brands. We use the D810 for expo-size prints and catalogue work, an a6400 for youtube, RX100III for top view (I steal it for international business travels), a cheap D5600 for 90-shots 360° degrees product view.

I bought an a6400 for home/ personal travel because I stop to shoot often, and taking off my helmet, cowl etc. was too annoying (used to have a D7500, a D5500 and a D70s before all).
I'm a biker. I can pack a kit of a D810, 200-500, 24-120, 14-24 plus a change of clothes etc in a tank bag on a not very large bike. It's properly packed with custom cut foam, so even if I do come off its likely not to be damaged. I also carry a Gx80 and a couple of lenses in a belt holster. This allows me to get shots when I'm actually on the move. I used to ride where I was going, see glorious scenery on the way and think, 'that would make a good photo, but I'd have to get the camera out'. Now I just park up get the GX80 out and get the shot. The GX80 goes with me on rides that are just about riding. No way can I carry the Nikon kit in a normal ride. That's what mFT is really great for. I've now got a Z6, which is a lot handier than the D810, but too big to do the belt holster duty like the GX80 does.
 
I'm a biker. I can pack a kit of a D810, 200-500, 24-120, 14-24 plus a change of clothes etc in a tank bag on a not very large bike. It's properly packed with custom cut foam, so even if I do come off its likely not to be damaged. I also carry a Gx80 and a couple of lenses in a belt holster. This allows me to get shots when I'm actually on the move. I used to ride where I was going, see glorious scenery on the way and think, 'that would make a good photo, but I'd have to get the camera out'. Now I just park up get the GX80 out and get the shot. The GX80 goes with me on rides that are just about riding. No way can I carry the Nikon kit in a normal ride. That's what mFT is really great for. I've now got a Z6, which is a lot handier than the D810, but too big to do the belt holster duty like the GX80 does.
I usually carry the a6400 with the 17-70 in the tank bag, tripod and filters + 12mm + 20 pancake in a camera bag in a side case (where I store rain gear and extra riding clothes). The other side case is for my clothes and bathroom stuff, and the top case for my girlfriend's clothes and bathroom stuff, and/or something to drink/eat. My bike's a 2019 Tracer GT.

If I don't sleep away from home there is no room issue, but I'm still worried about the camera in the tank bag... sometimes I tend to enjoy twisty roads too much, I calmed down alot in 25 years on the seat but still not enough imo.

Used to carry the RX100III but wasn't practical to use with thick leather gloves, now I just leave the a6400 in A mode and use the touch patch on the glove's right index to focus.

I considered an E-M10 or E-M5, but we planned to shoot more astral photography and APS-C is already suffering from noise a little too much for my taste.
 
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