How is this image Out of Focus?

[Joel Klein]

So This image was shot using AF-S wide area large people

To my surprise The focus appears to be on the tip of shoes.

Looking at NX Studio, the red dot appears to be just above his eye's.

I'm confused...



See Screenshot from NX Studio

and the high quality jpeg untouched exported from XN studio

Nikon Z7ii - Z70-200 @70mm f/6.3

 

[adski]

I've noticed that AF-C can pulse and flutter quite a bit, even when the subject is moving very slowly. Shots taken during a pulse will definitely be out of focus.

I’ve also found that the focus indicator isn’t always where the focus is during AF-C, as if the indicator is not accurately representing the position of the motor.

From reading and hearing others discuss other cameras, this can also occur in Canon & Sony AF-C modes too.

 

[Joel Klein]

Hi,

I found Thom Hogan's e-guide and also Steve Perry's e-guide very helpfull to learn how to use the Z AF system and to understand its possibilities.

See Secrets To The Nikon Autofocus System: Mirrorless Edition – Backcountry Gallery Web Store (bcgwebstore.com)

and Nikon Z System Books | Thom Hogan (zsystemuser.com)

 

[ipopov]

Steve Perry also has multiple videos on the topic, like this one:

 

[briantilley]

...snip...

Since there is a new update coming to the entire AF

That is still just a rumour.

 

[j_photo]

Joel Klein wrote

So basically in AF-S holding on the BBF 'after' the focus was acquired would not nothing.

VS. AF-C

I don't have my camera in front of me. But I think that if using BBF and af-s, and the camera is set to it's default focus priority, if you stop pressing the back focus button, the shutter may not fire.

That's not correct. Just tried it with my Z7. AF-S mode. Camera set to focus priority. I focus on something until I get the green dot. I release AF-On button, I press the shutter and the shot is taken. I try it again. Get the green dot. I release the shutter and move the camera until the AF-S box is over something that is now out of focus. I press the shutter. The shot is still taken. It doesn't matter where the AF box is, my Z camera seems to ignore the focus priority setting of the camera entirely.

This actually seems to be a change from how it worked on a DSLR. What would happen on those cameras was that if you had the camera set to AF-S with focus priority you could focus on something (green box) and then let go of AF-On. If you pressed the shutter button the shutter would fire if the box was still over something something that was in focus. If you recomposed so that the AF box was now over something that was out of focus the shutter would not trip.

This was a popular feature for some photographers. You could prefocus for a certain distance. You could then hold the shutter button down and the shutter would not trip. Until something moved into the prefocused distance. For example, a bird or animal. When a subject moved into the focus zone the shutter would now trip.

I remember a big uproar years ago when Nikon changed this behavior. I don't remember if they ever "fixed" it.

Your recollection is correct and I'm glad you brought this up. You are describing "focus trap". Nikon dropped it from the original D800--I was one of the early D800 buyers that was unhappy when they did. A few years later they restored it in a firmware upgrade. It's available on the Z7 as well, as follows:

1) Make sure you have a7 AF Activation set to AF-ON only.

2) While in the A7 setting with AF-ON only selected, click right with the multiselector to access a sub-setting called Out of focus release. If you set this to Disable, focus trap functionality is restored and the shutter will not trip when the focus point is over something not in focus.

When I wrote my earlier post, I had forgotten about this setting. And these days, with all the attention on smart auto-focus modes, I don't think it's very well known or understood. For myself, I've never understood Nikon's thinking that when in focus priority, the camera should be able to take a picture when not in focus.

 

[Leonard Shepherd]

In the first image of the child the AF point is on the forehead - where there is no contrast detail for accurate AF.

The actual AF is on the child's footwear that has both good contrast and is closet to the camera. AF seems to have worked - but not as you expected.

Perhaps you need to experiment to find out why.

Fortunately you took more than 1 shot.

The second posted image includes part of the eye in the AF point and is parallel to the short dimension of the frame (a decent AF subject) - and AF seems to have performed well.

You used studio flash (catchlight in the eye).

Some would have considered a tripod and manual focus; or hand holding and eye AF.

Two links have been suggested - either of which might help you get 10 out of 10 shots sharp in this type of shooting scenario.

 

[mrbr]

Hi,

I found Thom Hogan's e-guide and also Steve Perry's e-guide very helpfull to learn how to use the Z AF system and to understand its possibilities.

See Secrets To The Nikon Autofocus System: Mirrorless Edition – Backcountry Gallery Web Store (bcgwebstore.com)

and Nikon Z System Books | Thom Hogan (zsystemuser.com)

Good morning Marc.
Thanks for the links.
I feel I have the AF in studio kinda figured out. Outdoors, nature, waterfowl I can use the knowledge.

Since there is a new update coming to the entire AF, maybe the book will be out dated…

Hi,

Both Steve Perry and Thom Hogan do make new versions of their e-guides when firmware changes alter the behaviour of the camerabodies. Buyers get an e-mail to download the new pdf files.

See Do you ever update your works? | Thom Hogan (zsystemuser.com) and FAQ – Books / Prints / Etc. (backcountrygallery.com) for details.

Thom Hogan's e-guide explains the functionality of the camera body , not only the AF system.

I bought both e-guides , and I am very pleased with them.

 

[Digital Shutterbug]

Joel Klein wrote

So basically in AF-S holding on the BBF 'after' the focus was acquired would not nothing.

VS. AF-C

I don't have my camera in front of me. But I think that if using BBF and af-s, and the camera is set to it's default focus priority, if you stop pressing the back focus button, the shutter may not fire.

That's not correct. Just tried it with my Z7. AF-S mode. Camera set to focus priority. I focus on something until I get the green dot. I release AF-On button, I press the shutter and the shot is taken. I try it again. Get the green dot. I release the shutter and move the camera until the AF-S box is over something that is now out of focus. I press the shutter. The shot is still taken. It doesn't matter where the AF box is, my Z camera seems to ignore the focus priority setting of the camera entirely.

This actually seems to be a change from how it worked on a DSLR. What would happen on those cameras was that if you had the camera set to AF-S with focus priority you could focus on something (green box) and then let go of AF-On. If you pressed the shutter button the shutter would fire if the box was still over something something that was in focus. If you recomposed so that the AF box was now over something that was out of focus the shutter would not trip.

This was a popular feature for some photographers. You could prefocus for a certain distance. You could then hold the shutter button down and the shutter would not trip. Until something moved into the prefocused distance. For example, a bird or animal. When a subject moved into the focus zone the shutter would now trip.

I remember a big uproar years ago when Nikon changed this behavior. I don't remember if they ever "fixed" it.

Your recollection is correct and I'm glad you brought this up. You are describing "focus trap". Nikon dropped it from the original D800--I was one of the early D800 buyers that was unhappy when they did. A few years later they restored it in a firmware upgrade. It's available on the Z7 as well, as follows:

1) Make sure you have a7 AF Activation set to AF-ON only.

2) While in the A7 setting with AF-ON only selected, click right with the multiselector to access a sub-setting called Out of focus release. If you set this to Disable, focus trap functionality is restored and the shutter will not trip when the focus point is over something not in focus.

When I wrote my earlier post, I had forgotten about this setting. And these days, with all the attention on smart auto-focus modes, I don't think it's very well known or understood. For myself, I've never understood Nikon's thinking that when in focus priority, the camera should be able to take a picture when not in focus.

You are correct about the Out of Focus Release setting. Because of its location in the menu settings, it is easy to overlook. It overrides logic that makes you think the camera will not fire when out of focus. It does give the ability to have Focus Trap capability with the right combination of settings.

I keep my camera setup to allow me to shoot even when out of focus. I'm aware of how it works for me and it's second nature to me. It does allow for out of focus shots and I do have it happen if I'm in a hurry or simply not paying enough attention to what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend this setup to new users.

For those wondering why I would use this setup, it's because I want the ability to take my thumb off the AF-ON button and continue to shoot. If I'm doing multiple shots, with enough DOF to compensate for my minor movements, I can release the button and make physical movements with the camera that would be hard to do if I had to keep the button depressed. I don't expect too many photographers to want to work this way, but it works for me. It's no different than obtaining focus, then switching to MF to allow the camera to fire even when it thinks it's out of focus. It's just faster and easier to do by releasing a button. It's all about options.

 

[Digital Shutterbug]

I've noticed that AF-C can pulse and flutter quite a bit, even when the subject is moving very slowly. Shots taken during a pulse will definitely be out of focus.

I’ve also found that the focus indicator isn’t always where the focus is during AF-C, as if the indicator is not accurately representing the position of the motor.

From reading and hearing others discuss other cameras, this can also occur in Canon & Sony AF-C modes too.

I think you are right that this is not exclusive to Nikon. There are certain delays as the camera analyzes the focus and a focus motor moves to a new position. If you're shooting with an exceptionally thin DOF, you greatly increase the chance of getting an OOF image if taken when the lens is moving. As you increase the DOF, this problem rectifies itself. When shooting razor thin DOF shots you are probably better off with a tripod and manual focus. Even then, if the subject moves, you're going to have problems.

 

[j_photo]

I keep my camera setup to allow me to shoot even when out of focus. I'm aware of how it works for me and it's second nature to me. It does allow for out of focus shots and I do have it happen if I'm in a hurry or simply not paying enough attention to what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend this setup to new users.

For those wondering why I would use this setup, it's because I want the ability to take my thumb off the AF-ON button and continue to shoot. If I'm doing multiple shots, with enough DOF to compensate for my minor movements, I can release the button and make physical movements with the camera that would be hard to do if I had to keep the button depressed. I don't expect too many photographers to want to work this way, but it works for me. It's no different than obtaining focus, then switching to MF to allow the camera to fire even when it thinks it's out of focus. It's just faster and easier to do by releasing a button. It's all about options.

That's interesting. This might be the first time I've heard someone say why they prefer this set differently. I suppose the moral is that it's good to have choices...thanks for the explanation.

 

[Digital Shutterbug]

I keep my camera setup to allow me to shoot even when out of focus. I'm aware of how it works for me and it's second nature to me. It does allow for out of focus shots and I do have it happen if I'm in a hurry or simply not paying enough attention to what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend this setup to new users.

For those wondering why I would use this setup, it's because I want the ability to take my thumb off the AF-ON button and continue to shoot. If I'm doing multiple shots, with enough DOF to compensate for my minor movements, I can release the button and make physical movements with the camera that would be hard to do if I had to keep the button depressed. I don't expect too many photographers to want to work this way, but it works for me. It's no different than obtaining focus, then switching to MF to allow the camera to fire even when it thinks it's out of focus. It's just faster and easier to do by releasing a button. It's all about options.

That's interesting. This might be the first time I've heard someone say why they prefer this set differently. I suppose the moral is that it's good to have choices...thanks for the explanation.

I knew the question would come up if I didn't explain it. I think I might be unusual. Maybe not. I don't have interaction with other photographers outside of the forum group, so I don't know.

 

[briantilley]

I keep my camera setup to allow me to shoot even when out of focus. I'm aware of how it works for me and it's second nature to me. It does allow for out of focus shots and I do have it happen if I'm in a hurry or simply not paying enough attention to what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend this setup to new users.

For those wondering why I would use this setup, it's because I want the ability to take my thumb off the AF-ON button and continue to shoot. If I'm doing multiple shots, with enough DOF to compensate for my minor movements, I can release the button and make physical movements with the camera that would be hard to do if I had to keep the button depressed. I don't expect too many photographers to want to work this way, but it works for me. It's no different than obtaining focus, then switching to MF to allow the camera to fire even when it thinks it's out of focus. It's just faster and easier to do by releasing a button. It's all about options.

That's interesting. This might be the first time I've heard someone say why they prefer this set differently. I suppose the moral is that it's good to have choices...thanks for the explanation.

I knew the question would come up if I didn't explain it. I think I might be unusual. Maybe not. I don't have interaction with other photographers outside of the forum group, so I don't know.

I couldn't say whether it's unusual or common - but I'm one more who always sets their cameras to "release priority" rather than "focus priority".

My reason is twofold.

First, I want to be in control of what should be in focus, and of making the shot. I don't want the camera to refuse to take a shot because of what it thinks is in or out of focus.

Second, I often use the focus and recompose technique. I just find it faster and easier to manage than moving the AF point around, and at my typical shooting distances any induced focus "error" is irrelevant.

 

[j_photo]

I keep my camera setup to allow me to shoot even when out of focus. I'm aware of how it works for me and it's second nature to me. It does allow for out of focus shots and I do have it happen if I'm in a hurry or simply not paying enough attention to what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend this setup to new users.

For those wondering why I would use this setup, it's because I want the ability to take my thumb off the AF-ON button and continue to shoot. If I'm doing multiple shots, with enough DOF to compensate for my minor movements, I can release the button and make physical movements with the camera that would be hard to do if I had to keep the button depressed. I don't expect too many photographers to want to work this way, but it works for me. It's no different than obtaining focus, then switching to MF to allow the camera to fire even when it thinks it's out of focus. It's just faster and easier to do by releasing a button. It's all about options.

That's interesting. This might be the first time I've heard someone say why they prefer this set differently. I suppose the moral is that it's good to have choices...thanks for the explanation.

I knew the question would come up if I didn't explain it. I think I might be unusual. Maybe not. I don't have interaction with other photographers outside of the forum group, so I don't know.

I couldn't say whether it's unusual or common - but I'm one more who always sets their cameras to "release priority" rather than "focus priority".

My reason is twofold.

First, I want to be in control of what should be in focus, and of making the shot. I don't want the camera to refuse to take a shot because of what it thinks is in or out of focus.

Second, I often use the focus and recompose technique. I just find it faster and easier to manage than moving the AF point around, and at my typical shooting distances any induced focus "error" is irrelevant.

Since we are already pretty far into the weeds: FYI focus and recompose is possible with focus priority as well, with the settings that both Digital Shutterbug and I are using. Not that I'm suggesting you should change how you shoot. Just want to point this out.

 

[briantilley]

Since we are already pretty far into the weeds: FYI focus and recompose is possible with focus priority as well, with the settings that both Digital Shutterbug and I are using. Not that I'm suggesting you should change how you shoot. Just want to point this out.

Yes, that's another way of achieving the same end. I think what you describe is a relatively new menu option - I don't recall it being there prior to the D850 generation.

Either way (and as somone said earlier) it's good to have options

 

[flashpixx]

Hi,

Both Steve Perry and Thom Hogan do make new versions of their e-guides when firmware changes alter the behaviour of the camerabodies. Buyers get an e-mail to download the new pdf files.

See Do you ever update your works? | Thom Hogan (zsystemuser.com) and FAQ – Books / Prints / Etc. (backcountrygallery.com) for details.

Thom Hogan's e-guide explains the functionality of the camera body , not only the AF system.

I bought both e-guides , and I am very pleased with them.

thanks for the Steve Perry links.

Thom eguide is great but Im still baffled by the things the AF does, hoping Steve perry 470 pages on just AF will help haha

best

 

[Ernie Misner]

I actually prefer AF-C if myself or the subject is moving whatsoever.

 

[Ernie Misner]

I've noticed that AF-C can pulse and flutter quite a bit, even when the subject is moving very slowly. Shots taken during a pulse will definitely be out of focus.

You know, at one point I feel confused. So let's get the difference between AF-C and AF-S sorted.

While on AF-C, The focus would continually search and reposition? or its only continually searching when I'm actually focusing by half pressing or back button focus?

If you're hand holding and/or the subject could be moving slightly then I want to be in AF-C with the AF constantly following the movements. Hold the BBF button in or half-press while firing.

While on AF-S holding the back button focus would focus once and until I don't lift my finger and press again it wont focus again. Correct?

 

[GodSpeaks]

So basically in AF-S holding on the BBF 'after' the focus was acquired would not nothing.
VS. AF-C
Thanks. Gota save my user to AF-S like I had on the Z6ii.

This looks like it is a studio shot, which is what I shoot pretty much exclusively with my D800E. I have my camera set to AF-S BBF with shutter AF set to OFF. I also use ONLY the central AF point and rarely get OOF images.

Studio shot or not, this kind of subject is not moving a lot, so AFS and BBF will work well. I also use the focus and recompose method, which I have been using since the dawn of AF, and it has worked very well for me, even with subjects that move moderately.

 

[Sagittarius]

Joel Klein wrote

So basically in AF-S holding on the BBF 'after' the focus was acquired would not nothing.

VS. AF-C

I don't have my camera in front of me. But I think that if using BBF and af-s, and the camera is set to it's default focus priority, if you stop pressing the back focus button, the shutter may not fire.

That's not correct. Just tried it with my Z7. AF-S mode. Camera set to focus priority. I focus on something until I get the green dot. I release AF-On button, I press the shutter and the shot is taken. I try it again. Get the green dot. I release the shutter and move the camera until the AF-S box is over something that is now out of focus. I press the shutter. The shot is still taken. It doesn't matter where the AF box is, my Z camera seems to ignore the focus priority setting of the camera entirely.

This actually seems to be a change from how it worked on a DSLR. What would happen on those cameras was that if you had the camera set to AF-S with focus priority you could focus on something (green box) and then let go of AF-On. If you pressed the shutter button the shutter would fire if the box was still over something something that was in focus. If you recomposed so that the AF box was now over something that was out of focus the shutter would not trip.

This was a popular feature for some photographers. You could prefocus for a certain distance. You could then hold the shutter button down and the shutter would not trip. Until something moved into the prefocused distance. For example, a bird or animal. When a subject moved into the focus zone the shutter would now trip.

I remember a big uproar years ago when Nikon changed this behavior. I don't remember if they ever "fixed" it.

What is your setting for "Out-Of-Focus release" for AF-ON only? If it is at default "Enable" camera will take a picture even if button is not held and focus obtained.

 

[skyrunr]

Hello,

I confirmed that trap focus still works on a Z7II. A7 with the sub-menu release option is now A6. Very odd that focus priority has to be set twice.

This is a circumstance that Subject Tracking should be able to handle with no trouble whatsoever! MY expectations are that a dedicated $2-3,000 camera should at least match a smartphone or 4-5yo DSLR. When it works focus and recompose is a dream, and beyond what you can accomplish with a DSLR. This is also where Sony and Canon clearly provide a better ML shooting experience. Even from the older gear ( EOS-R and A7R3) I tried. This is what we're looking for in the next firmware update. I'm managing my taking more images (burst) and sticking with Nikon regardless.

I've even tried turning down all the sensitivity settings, but AF-C still drifts. There are too many times where I miss my D500 though. The D780 couldn't replace a D750/D500 either (larger, no flash, slower focusing, no CFE, etc.) I don't know what Nikon was thinking with that one was released! LOL

1) Make sure you have a7 AF Activation set to AF-ON only.

2) While in the A7 setting with AF-ON only selected, click right with the multiselector to access a sub-setting called Out of focus release. If you set this to Disable, focus trap functionality is restored and the shutter will not trip when the focus point is over something not in focus.

When I wrote my earlier post, I had forgotten about this setting. And these days, with all the attention on smart auto-focus modes, I don't think it's very well known or understood. For myself, I've never understood Nikon's thinking that when in focus priority, the camera should be able to take a picture when not in focus.

--
SkyRunR
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'Out of the darkness there must come out the light.' Bob Marley