Help Me Understand......

[Juli Valley]

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Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon FiveDee, Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o, Fuji Eff30.

 

[J_M]

I'm not sure where that's a bad thing. I believe that would be called flexibility. Besides, Sony is not a second rate "third party vendor"? Heck, Sonys is bigger then Canon.. aren't they?

Sony is in the game... I just opened the new Photodistrict News and they have a full page Ad. Sony isn't professional yet, but they have done a fairly quick job of consuming Minolta-Konica and bringing Sony products to market. So if they are serious about the market, and I was Nikon, I wouldn't want to bet my next camera on my competitors chip. That's really the point that I was trying to make. Yes it offers a bit of flexibility to shop, but there just aren't enough vendors of high-end sensors for Dslr's.

What appears to be flexibility is really a camera company (Nikon) that has bodies and lenses (aps-FF) waiting for sensors. If they could put a FF sensor into one of their cameras that trumps the Canon products they would. I don't believe the comments from official spokespeople discussing that reasons why that stick with small sensors.... the reason is that they don't exist.

If FF sensors were a commodity such as laptop components, then we could discuss flexibilty ( as in PC manufacturers) but FF sensors or any size high-end Dslr sensors are not commodities...... yet.

Who offers a competitive sensor for the Dslr market...... Sony and Canon. That's not flexibilty, that's a captive market.

Just the very fact that the Mark III is a cropped sensor bacically says Canon is NOT throwing out the technology that is cropped sensors.. Otherwise you would have seen a FF in the Mark III

I wasn't really addressing sensor size, but that is one of Canon's strengths, they do have a scalable product, which nobody else does. Again, they have the flexibility, not Nikon.

My decision to switch to Canon was simple, I looked at the next 3 years and only one company had the technology to make my purchase safe. In the world of Dslrs, lenses are the only "investment" that will survive 3-5 years, the bodies will need to be upgraded.

regards,

j

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

My decision to switch to Canon was simple, I looked at the next 3
years and only one company had the technology to make my purchase
safe. In the world of Dslrs, lenses are the only "investment" that
will survive 3-5 years, the bodies will need to be upgraded.

regards,

j

Hi J

J M.. Certain a thoughtful and considerate post.. but in reading your last paragraph I get the feeling that your photos are more dependant on the camera you use and not your vision and skill. I don't really think you mean that because I am sure that isn't true..

The bottom line is this.. It's not about the eguipment it about the person operating it.. but that seems to be a played out over-used phrase these days that seems to mean less and less.. How many of us here in this forum and other forums like this really believe this anymore.. I for one certainly do.. and I am sure you and most that write here do to.. It just isn't discussed much.. This is why I like to go read in the Lighting Forum or Pro Digital.. There it seems less important on what gear you have and more important on your technique and vision.

I think all too often we look at the technical aspects of the photo and totally and completely miss the image.. This use to happen to me when I was in video production. We would watch a program and instead of watching the "program" we watched the lighting, edits and talant.. That's too bad.. I think the other phrase that is often used to say this is " You can't see the forest thru the trees" This is SO TRUE today as tech heads argue about the specs of brand X..

Below is another photo from my Canon..... ELPH. Now there's a piece of technology for ya.. So ya see.. I own Canon too.. I like this image, not because it's super clean, high resolution, perfect white balance, ADD YOUR OWN reason.. I like it because it tells a story of that event..



--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[J_M]

your photos are more dependant on the camera you use and not your vision and skill. I don't really think you mean that because I am sure that isn't true..

Hi Frank,

Sorry, but I don't see the disconnect to wanting to using your vision/skill with the best equipment that is available. It's not an either/or situation. This is my business, so offering my clients the best quality (skill/equipment) is what I do. Given the option I will buy the camera capable of delivering a better image quality and once that is established I can move onto my contribution to the final product. For some images grain/noise is appropriate and with other images, dynamic range, color fidelity and resolution are key, so image quality is directly tied to the purpose and audience of your images.

Photography will always span the gap between an art and a craft because of the technical aspects associated with it. The best photographers will have consummate ability across both facets.

regards,

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

Sorry, but I don't see the disconnect to wanting to using your
vision/skill with the best equipment that is available. It's not an
either/or situation. This is my business, so offering my clients
the best quality (skill/equipment) is what I do. Given the option I
will buy the camera capable of delivering a better image quality
and once that is established I can move onto my contribution to the
final product. For some images grain/noise is appropriate and with
other images, dynamic range, color fidelity and resolution are key,
so image quality is directly tied to the purpose and audience of
your images.

No question about that.. and it's a good point.. You would want the best available for the task.. I have no counter-points to make without starting another Brand X vs Brand Y all over again.. So with that.. You take care and god bless..

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[lenny_shp]

The funny part is, if you don't know, many Nikon guys are always threatening to go Canon unless Nikon releases a FF dslr!

I don't think that is funny, Nikon need their own sensor not third party from Sony. Than is main Nikon issue and this is why people leaving Nikon/
Sony release their own DSLR and I guess not much care about Nikon anymore.

You could be happy with Nikon 100 times (it reminds me my happy neighbor driving 1974 Impala all in rust and holes), but your shots will never as good as shots made on 5D or 1DsII.

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My gallery: http://www.pbase.com/breitling65/best_of_

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

lenny_shp wrote:
.

You could be happy with Nikon 100 times (it reminds me my happy
neighbor driving 1974 Impala all in rust and holes), but your shots
will never as good as shots made on 5D or 1DsII.

Lenny

What a blanket statement this is.. Are you sure someone with a Nikon D2Xs or D200 can't get the shots that look as good as the same taken with the 5D or 1DsII. Excluding high ISO of course.. as most agree the 5D is king..

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[Donald Cooper]

Anyone with even limited expertise should understand why the 1DIII isn't FF. The reasons are obvious. Just look at Nikon's inability to produce a camera with even a 1.3X crop or a camera that will do 10 fps at a paltry 1.5X. (I'm assuming no one belives the silly explanations about 1.5X being superior).

So the question is whether you're just really uninformed or trolling.

Given the way you posed the question, which is basically "why are you inconsistent in praising FF in one thread in this camera which is not FF in another", my conclusion was that if you had taken the time to look at the threads then you couldn't have been that uninformed so that it must be the latter.

If it was the former -- and the question was genuine -- my apologies.

Two reasons. One is that it's not FF because Canon can't process
that size of an image, at that bit depth, at 10 fps. Yes FF would
be better than 1.3x. Unfortunately at the moment you have to pick
-- great high ISO images at FF and 4-5 fps -- or great high ISO
images at 1.3X and 10 fps. Then again, don't you think that either
of those options beats lously high ISO images at 2X?

The second reason is that a larger sensor costs more. Putting a FF
sensor in the camera would significantly drive up the price, which
isn't normally warmly received.

Hmmmm......... Now that I think about it, you Nikon guys don't seem
overly bothered by getting ripped off when you pay so much for
those small 1.5X sensors. I don't think I'd be enamored of paying
for five pounds of sugar and getting three.

Why not someone here in the Canon forum? There have been recent
threads touting the merits of FF... Yet Canon's newest "marvel" is
a crop job.. You certainly have to admit this is interesting to say
the least. I would like to see some Canon users comment on this..
Expecially all those that commented in the FF vs Cropped sensor
thread..

Sorry friend. You got that wrong.. I am not trolling. Read my
messages when I am here in the Canon forum. They are not and never
have been of the trolling nature.. Stop throwing around that word
everytime a Nikon used visits Canon..

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[Donald Cooper]

Compared to a 1DIII at the same price? You betcha.

A digital camera is both a camera and a lifetime of film. The Nikon is inferior with regard to crop factor (2X vs. 1.3X) and film quality (three stops). So yes it's overpriced unless you're held hostage by all your Nikon gear.

I used Nikon for many years, more in fact that I've used Canon. But I'm not going to play the knucklehead and pretend Nikon is competitive when they aren't.

At the low end of the dSLR's market the Nikon offering is as good as Canon's. At the high end it's not.

Do you think the current price of $4299 for a D2Xs is a rip off?

 

[rrcphoto]

Hi,

I'm venturing back into digital photography. Being a life long
Nikon guy (1st camera a Nikkormat!) I got a D70 then D200 without
doing much research.

both great cameras...

Of course much of it is based upon arguing brands..on the Nikon
side anyway..

they seem to be quite insecure over there at times.

One of the issues...my only even minor gripe is Canons clear
advantage in high, 800+ iso photography. I don't do much of this
sort of thing and have been able to work around it but to my meager
knowledge the difference seemed to be based upon the FF sensor of
Canon dslr's.

low noise is nice, however, it's the choice that canon gives you that you should also be looking at. depending on your requirements you can switch between bodies and sensor sizes at will. no other company gives you that capability. there's some cases where the 5D excells, and others that the 30D, or if you need raw performance the 1DIII ... or absolute capabiliy to create large prints - 1DsII. Nikon or any other company simply doesn't have that range of choices.

The Mark III will be the 1st Canon I paid attention to upon release
as it's garnered quite a bit of interest.

it's a pretty cool camera. tailored alot for it's market though

But I just discovered it's an APS-H sensor with a 1.3 lens
conversion factor.

Is there to be 2 models, one with FF one APS?

The 1D line is 1.3 (APS-H) sized, and the 1Ds line is FF sized. those are the two pro lines that canon has.

Hmm maybe I'm misinformed...I thought the Mark III will be about
$4700....is that so? That seems like a lot based upon recent
trends...

That camera can do things that no other camera can do. period. but it's also really designed for the work professional photographer.

The funny part is, if you don't know, many Nikon guys are always
threatening to go Canon unless Nikon releases a FF dslr!

FF does have alot of artistic and print based advantages as well as noise advantages...

Oh well...No matter I'm happy with my D200 and guess what i just
remembered my 1st camera was a Canon so I have a soft spot for
Canon and think they're cool!

and likewise with nikon..

YOu buy into a system, not a camera body. I personally appreciate the direction of technology which at any point in time can be evident with Canon. There's really no magic as you can see the technology continually being improved - even with no market factors.

Also their pro lens lineup is far ahead of any one elses as far as versatility and choices.

 

[Donald Cooper]

And some can't tell the difference between a genuine question and a troll.

My guess is that I've bought more Nikons in the last year than you have. His question doesn't seem genuine question at all, akin as it is to one of those "last week you said this so why are you saying that this week" even when it should be intuitively obvious that the contexts are completely different.

Go back and read his question and tell me why it's not a troll rather than falling back on the old saw that anyone who identifies a post as a troll must somehow be motivated by blind brand loyalty.

Ignore them Frank. There are some on this forum who automatically
assume that use of the N word makes the poster a troll. It's
worrying really that some are so blinkered that they can't see that
there may be good cameras produced by people other than Canon.
By the way, I have been a Canon user for years.
--
Regards

Keith

 

[JohnnyRX7]

sensors are second rate.. TV's too.. PS3 is also.. shall I
continue. This coming from someone with $$$$$'s in sony stuff too,
so take it for what it's worth.

Why? because you say they are? You think Sony XBR TV's are junk?
What do you know about the PS3?

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

not junk...just second rate. Sony has lost their leadership in many areas...surely you can admit to that....it's no big secret.
Sony sensors are second rate....
XBR TV's.. please.. I kept my panny and pioneer elite

PS3.. ok I know you are going to say people are just learning to program for it, but you have to admit it's a flop so far....yes I own one.
--
Johnny

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

not junk...just second rate. Sony has lost their leadership in many
areas...surely you can admit to that....it's no big secret.
Sony sensors are second rate....
XBR TV's.. please.. I kept my panny and pioneer elite
PS3.. ok I know you are going to say people are just learning to
program for it, but you have to admit it's a flop so far....yes I
own one.
--
Johnny

I'm not gonna argue with you Johnny. If you are gonna make statements based on no facts and just because you say so... we're done..

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[JohnnyRX7]

not junk...just second rate. Sony has lost their leadership in many
areas...surely you can admit to that....it's no big secret.
Sony sensors are second rate....
XBR TV's.. please.. I kept my panny and pioneer elite
PS3.. ok I know you are going to say people are just learning to
program for it, but you have to admit it's a flop so far....yes I
own one.
--
Johnny

I'm not gonna argue with you Johnny. If you are gonna make
statements based on no facts and just because you say so... we're
done..

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

that makes 2 of us... because I too grow tired of you obvious nikon fanboyism... you disquise it a little, but not enough. As to my feeling about sony, I think owning a lot of sony gear..TV's, game systems,cameras, computers, hidef camcorders qualifies me to have my opinion.
--
Johnny

 

[lenny_shp]

Are you sure someone with a Nikon D2Xs or D200

Face it, Canon better at this moment ...
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My gallery: http://www.pbase.com/breitling65/best_of_

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

that makes 2 of us... because I too grow tired of you obvious nikon
fanboyism... you disquise it a little, but not enough. As to my
feeling about sony, I think owning a lot of sony gear..TV's, game
systems,cameras, computers, hidef camcorders qualifies me to have
my opinion.
--
Johnny

There you go again. You know absolutely nothing about me, what I own, what I do, what I buy, what I can afford to buy, what I've owned, what I've shot, who I've worked for, what national credits I have, what TV commercials I've shot, add your own, to make remarks about me being a "fanboy"

Quit while your ahead. We can end this still being friends.. and BTW.. I will be waiting for your apology for calling me a Nikon "fanboy". I've owned over $60,000 worth of photography and SONY video equipment.. Some of my Sony video camera lenses could cost more then your entire photography collection combined..

Calling Sony a company with second rate sensors makes you look very dumb.. And I will apologize for calling you dumb now.. Sony is the front runner when it comes to making sensors.. Their TV video cameras are world standards found in EVERY major TV and cable company in the world.. and you think they can't make a stupid still camera sensor.. P L E A S E....

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

Face it, Canon better at this moment ...

Better at what? Every aspect of taking a digital photo? I think not and don't think you or anyone else here in Canon land is ready to say to say that either..

Canon has one thing going for them at the moment Low high ISO noise. Where was Canon when the D1 came out? They caught up didn't they? Do you really think Nikon is just gonna fold up and close shop? Or do you think they will release something that levels the playing field again.. Of course they will.. but there is no need to worry about it.. both company's equipment take great photos right now..

The first photo was taken at ISO 450 in "auto iso" mode. The second photo is ISO 100. Both from the dog of a camera called the D2Xs...

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My gallery: http://www.pbase.com/breitling65/best_of_

--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[BroLuke]

Ya know..

If it wasn't for Nikon AND Canon we'd be in a heck of a spot.

Head to head competition like this can only be good for the consumer as they try to leap frog each other.

Sure there are other brands but rarely figure in the scheme of things.

I'm really of the opinion either system will afford you the opportunity to get the shot.

Frankly neither company is going in the direction that will result in the "perfect" camera for my style...well possibly Canon but they miss the mark for my price range.

Pax

Bro.Luke

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

Anyone with even limited expertise should understand why the 1DIII
isn't FF. The reasons are obvious. Just look at Nikon's inability
to produce a camera with even a 1.3X crop or a camera that will do
10 fps at a paltry 1.5X. (I'm assuming no one belives the silly
explanations about 1.5X being superior).

So the question is whether you're just really uninformed or trolling.

Given the way you posed the question, which is basically "why are
you inconsistent in praising FF in one thread in this camera which
is not FF in another", my conclusion was that if you had taken the
time to look at the threads then you couldn't have been that
uninformed so that it must be the latter.

If what your saying about FF and sensor size is true it won't be long before you and guys like you will have to switch to medium format digital. Is that correct? Look Donald. I do not enjoy coming into these forums and arguing about thinks like this. I am not an expert in electronic engineeing nor do I wish to be. Some of the talk around here makes me think everyone in this forum is an expert on camera design.. Have you read some of the arguments? Where do these guys get this stuff from.. They are either way smarter then me or they are full of... well you know..

The Mark III is nice on paper. It has not appeared just yet, doesn't have it's bugs worked out and we still have to see what Nikon develops or has developed. I can assure you Nikon isn't going anywhere. They will produce another fine camera and will keep Canon on their toes.. Until then I may buy a Mark III... Just because I like the latest and greatest.. Know what I mean..

Until I am a Canon and Nikon owner I leave you with this photo of my sweet little Cedar Waxwing named Zena. Not a bad little photo from a "has been", "over priced" camera called a D2Xs.. don't ya think? .. Enjoy. and god bless



--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto

 

[Frank Benvenuto]

Ya know..

If it wasn't for Nikon AND Canon we'd be in a heck of a spot.

Yes of course.. Do you really know what's going on here. The camera companies are taking all our money. Let me tell you why I feel this way. I had a D1X before I got my D2Xs. I had that camera for YEARS. Shot thousands and thousands of images through her. Then for no real reason I wanted to "upgrade".. So out came $5000 and in came the D2Xs.. Know what? Did the end result change all the much.. Not really. Could I see differences, sure I could but were they worth $5000 for.. I have to say no they weren't... Now understand this, what I shoot, which is mostly for the web.. I didn't need the latest and greatest.. So what did I do? I made the camera companies richer.. I suspect that many guys that opt for the latest and greatest are experiencing the same things I am.. The state of the art digital today isn't all the better then the state of the art of yesterday. It's all hype.. or mostly hype.. Now, of course if you need the absolute best AF or low noise high ISO photography you need get that.

So the question I ask is this. How many of us here in Canon and in Nikon forums have these wizz bang cameras and really have not gotten any real benefit from this latest gear other then the pride of ownership? How many of us in our pro work or hobby time could have been perfectly happy with yesterdays digitals.? I think if you are being honest you have to answer like I have..

Below is a photo I took with a 7 year old D1X.. Not so bad... no?



--
Subject and Composition Trumps Any Camera Flaws.
Frank Benvenuto