Hasselblad X2D: rolling shutter problem with non-HB lenses

[as1mov]

Hi,

before holiday I had a chance to try out a Hasselblad X2D with a Leica Summilux 50mm adapted on it. I really wanted to try this setup, because I am going to use the camera a lot with vintage and non-HB lenses (especially until I have a the full set of HB lenses)

I took some 10 pictures of non-moving objects and almost all of them showed the rolling shutter effect. So I cannot hold the camera steady enough to get picture without rolling-shutter.

So I had basically given up on this camera. However, I have recently discovered that it is possible to reduce the bit depth from 16bit to 14bin and the sensor readout time will be reduced substantially.

From this document https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/ and from a post on this forum by Jim Kasson, I understand the readout time goes from 370 ms to 166ms, which is close to that of the M11(according to the doc), with which I have been shooting for more then a year without having rolling shutter problems (for non-moving or slow-moving objects).

So in conclusion, based on the information I should have no problems using the X2D with adapted lenses in 14bit mode.

Thanks.

Cheers.

 

[Paul2600]

Hand holding the X2D with only ES is tricky as odds are what you are seeing is possibly not rolling shutter but movement from holding the camera during exposure. I would try same exposures with same lenses on a tripod to see if you get the same effects. X2D with no focal shutter does pose a unique challenge for use of non Hasselblad lenses.



Paul

 

[Jared Willson]

Interesting, I have not had problems with apparent distortion from the electronic shutter when shooting stationary targets with adapted lenses. BUT, I did have to retrain myself to wait until the viewfinder blackout is over before moving. Otherwise, I had a tendency to start to drop my hand before the exposure was over.

Nothing wrong with shooting in 14 bit mode, though, if that is the difference for you between visual artifacts and not. As Hasselblad has begun to fill out their lens offerings in the newer 'V' series, I don't find myself shooting adapted lenses very often anymore, so I don't run into this issue.

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

before holiday I had a chance to try out a Hasselblad X2D with a Leica Summilux 50mm adapted on it. I really wanted to try this setup, because I am going to use the camera a lot with vintage and non-HB lenses (especially until I have a the full set of HB lenses)

I took some 10 pictures of non-moving objects and almost all of them showed the rolling shutter effect. So I cannot hold the camera steady enough to get picture without rolling-shutter.

So I had basically given up on this camera. However, I have recently discovered that it is possible to reduce the bit depth from 16bit to 14bin and the sensor readout time will be reduced substantially.

From this document https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/ and from a post on this forum by Jim Kasson, I understand the readout time goes from 370 ms to 166ms, which is close to that of the M11(according to the doc), with which I have been shooting for more then a year without having rolling shutter problems (for non-moving or slow-moving objects).

So in conclusion, based on the information I should have no problems using the X2D with adapted lenses in 14bit mode.

I tend to suspect that most people, evidently including you, have a much easier time holding a camera reasonably steady for 1/6 to 1/3s when looking through an M11's finder than when looking through an EVF that presumably (I haven't used an X2D) blacks out. You may be able to practice and get considerably steadier for the period between when you trip the shutter button and when the exposure finishes, but I think that's probably a skill that requires practice.

That said, I don't see an X2D as a good or even decent tool for "us[ing] ... a lot with vintage and non-HB lenses". The lack of an in-camera mechanical shutter can cause all sorts of difficulties, as you discovered, at least / especially without a stacked sensor that reads out far more quickly. For such use, a Fuji GFX seems like a far better choice. If somehow you can hold off or reverse getting the X2D, it seems to me like it is best avoided unless / until you can get Hasselblad X lenses that cover the large majority of your uses / all of your important uses--at which time it becomes a tool with unique capabilities.

 

[Pd printer]

The X1D/907 50C have a readout speed of little more than 300ms with a frame rate of 2.3/s and the next generation (100C) has a readout speed of around 160ms and 3 fps. The GFX100S II has the same second generation sensor with the same readout speed but claims 7fps with mechanical shutter (would need a readout speed less than 140ms) or 5fps with ES. Why is there such difference?

The electronic shutter works fine on tripod but handheld I have constant issues, often because I assumed the exposure is done when it was not quite. To really use adapted lenses freehand I think one needs a significant faster sensor readout, i.e. a stacked version or better a global shutter sensor. Sony produced a MF global sensor for industial application and could produce a version for standard photography but I don't want to accept a significant penalty in DR. At least I a recent Hasselblad survey which was sent to me there was the question how important adapted lenses are.

 

[JimKasson]

The X1D/907 50C have a readout speed of little more than 300ms with a frame rate of 2.3/s and the next generation (100C) has a readout speed of around 160ms and 3 fps. The GFX100S II has the same second generation sensor with the same readout speed but claims 7fps with mechanical shutter (would need a readout speed less than 140ms) or 5fps with ES. Why is there such difference?

12 bit precision at high frame rates.

Fujifilm GFX 100 II precision in CH shutter mode - the last word

This is the 21st post in a series of tests of the Fujifilm GFX 100, Mark II. You can find all the posts in this series by going to the Categories pane in the right hand panel and clicking on “GFX 100 II”. I've been asked how sure I am that the Fujifilm GFX 100

blog.kasson.com

The electronic shutter works fine on tripod but handheld I have constant issues, often because I assumed the exposure is done when it was not quite. To really use adapted lenses freehand I think one needs a significant faster sensor readout, i.e. a stacked version or better a global shutter sensor. Sony produced a MF global sensor for industial application and could produce a version for standard photography but I don't want to accept a significant penalty in DR. At least I a recent Hasselblad survey which was sent to me there was the question how important adapted lenses are.

 

[Bags27]

The simple answer is to get a 907x 50 or 100c and put it on the back of a 500 c/m and shoot only Zeiss glass at 1/500 or slower. I've never had a problem with rolling shutter.

Seriously, it's hard to understand how Hasselblad, faced with the challenge of a leaf shutter in the digital age didn't address that aggressively. I also have a lot of Leica and Nikon glass I'd like to use beyond landscape work.

 

[SrMi]

Hi,

before holiday I had a chance to try out a Hasselblad X2D with a Leica Summilux 50mm adapted on it. I really wanted to try this setup, because I am going to use the camera a lot with vintage and non-HB lenses (especially until I have a the full set of HB lenses)

I took some 10 pictures of non-moving objects and almost all of them showed the rolling shutter effect. So I cannot hold the camera steady enough to get picture without rolling-shutter.

So I had basically given up on this camera. However, I have recently discovered that it is possible to reduce the bit depth from 16bit to 14bin and the sensor readout time will be reduced substantially.

From this document https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/ and from a post on this forum by Jim Kasson, I understand the readout time goes from 370 ms to 166ms, which is close to that of the M11(according to the doc), with which I have been shooting for more then a year without having rolling shutter problems (for non-moving or slow-moving objects).

So in conclusion, based on the information I should have no problems using the X2D with adapted lenses in 14bit mode.

Thanks.

Cheers.

 

[left eye]

If someone asked me they wanted to use a lot of non-native lenses on a new MF camera, what MF should they get? - a GFX for sure. You really do need that mechanical shutter in the mix. A X2D I’d steer away from, far from a good choice for non-native lenses.

Non-native glass is what you’ll usually find on my GFX, works like a dream.

 

[Bags27]

If someone asked me they wanted to use a lot of non-native lenses on a new MF camera, what MF should they get? - a GFX for sure. You really do need that mechanical shutter in the mix. A X2D I’d steer away from, far from a good choice for non-native lenses.

Non-native glass is what you’ll usually find on my GFX, works like a dream.

+1

I've bought and sold 2 Fujis and likely will never own another Fuji (I can't tell you how very, very much I hate its user interface, which really interfered with my pleasure in photography), and absolutely love my digital Blad (907x 50c): it's a thing of elegance and beauty, and has the best color science short of the Leica M11 (or no longer produced Leica S 007 or S3 or the original Sigma Merrills).

But I completely agree with you. The leaf shutter makes it far, far less inviting to use non-Blad glass. When I did own a Fuji GFX 50r, my M 50 Summilux worked especially brilliantly on it.

I bought the 907x because I shoot mainly film with a Blad and really enjoy slapping the 50c on the back of my 500 c/m for kicks. But if I were shooting only digital and already invested in Leica M glass (which I am), I would definitely buy the M11P (which I almost did). To my eye, it has better overall image quality than either the Fuji or Blad and is almost as much fun to use as the Blad.

 

[left eye]

If someone asked me they wanted to use a lot of non-native lenses on a new MF camera, what MF should they get? - a GFX for sure. You really do need that mechanical shutter in the mix. A X2D I’d steer away from, far from a good choice for non-native lenses.

Non-native glass is what you’ll usually find on my GFX, works like a dream.

+1

I've bought and sold 2 Fujis and likely will never own another Fuji (I can't tell you how very, very much I hate its user interface, which really interfered with my pleasure in photography), and absolutely love my digital Blad (907x 50c): it's a thing of elegance and beauty, and has the best color science short of the Leica M11 (or no longer produced Leica S 007 or S3 or the original Sigma Merrills).

But I completely agree with you. The leaf shutter makes it far, far less inviting to use non-Blad glass. When I did own a Fuji GFX 50r, my M 50 Summilux worked especially brilliantly on it.

I bought the 907x because I shoot mainly film with a Blad and really enjoy slapping the 50c on the back of my 500 c/m for kicks. But if I were shooting only digital and already invested in Leica M glass (which I am), I would definitely buy the M11P (which I almost did). To my eye, it has better overall image quality than either the Fuji or Blad and is almost as much fun to use as the Blad.

I totally get you - on the Fuji interface. The haptics of my GFX 50S is pretty good though, but the amount of buttons, accidentally presses and just toy feeling of it is rather off-putting, but it is a very convenient camera... and as I say pairs very well with adapted lenses.

For a better overall experience I use my Pentax 645Z (with Pentax 645 lenses), probably in a similar way to your 'Blad, and I prefer the mirror and OVF, also I find the Pentax files to be more to my liking than the Fuji. But when I want to use non-native glass, it's the Fuji ...i wouldn't go near a X2D (-for sure though with native glass it must be wonderful within it's limits).

 

[yogi4fitness]

If someone asked me they wanted to use a lot of non-native lenses on a new MF camera, what MF should they get? - a GFX for sure. You really do need that mechanical shutter in the mix. A X2D I’d steer away from, far from a good choice for non-native lenses.

Non-native glass is what you’ll usually find on my GFX, works like a dream.

+1

I've bought and sold 2 Fujis and likely will never own another Fuji (I can't tell you how very, very much I hate its user interface, which really interfered with my pleasure in photography), and absolutely love my digital Blad (907x 50c): it's a thing of elegance and beauty, and has the best color science short of the Leica M11 (or no longer produced Leica S 007 or S3 or the original Sigma Merrills).

But I completely agree with you. The leaf shutter makes it far, far less inviting to use non-Blad glass. When I did own a Fuji GFX 50r, my M 50 Summilux worked especially brilliantly on it.

I bought the 907x because I shoot mainly film with a Blad and really enjoy slapping the 50c on the back of my 500 c/m for kicks. But if I were shooting only digital and already invested in Leica M glass (which I am), I would definitely buy the M11P (which I almost did). To my eye, it has better overall image quality than either the Fuji or Blad and is almost as much fun to use as the Blad.

I totally get you - on the Fuji interface.

Wait for the fixed lens Fuji GFX camera with hybrid EVF/OVF and all manual dials. That will take the pleasure of photography to the next level. No one will ever complain about Fuji interface after that .

Ok I'll go back to dreaming.

The haptics of my GFX 50S is pretty good though, but the amount of buttons, accidentally presses and just toy feeling of it is rather off-putting, but it is a very convenient camera... and as I say pairs very well with adapted lenses.

For a better overall experience I use my Pentax 645Z (with Pentax 645 lenses), probably in a similar way to your 'Blad, and I prefer the mirror and OVF, also I find the Pentax files to be more to my liking than the Fuji. But when I want to use non-native glass, it's the Fuji ...i wouldn't go near a X2D (-for sure though with native glass it must be wonderful within it's limits).

 

[Smogg]

I understand your feelings very well. I have 2 M11 and an X2D. On July 12th I bought a GFX 100S II as a backup camera for rain and places where I wouldn't risk taking a Leica or Hasselblad. But after 3 weeks of active use and a week-long trip to London, I sold the Fuji today. I decided that I would rather risk the main cameras than suffer with the interface, awkward grip and post-processing of Fuji files.

 

[yogi4fitness]

I understand your feelings very well. I have 2 M11 and an X2D. On July 12th I bought a GFX 100S II as a backup camera for rain and places where I wouldn't risk taking a Leica or Hasselblad.

I thought the Leica and Hasselblad are weather sealed. Are they not?

But after 3 weeks of active use and a week-long trip to London, I sold the Fuji today. I decided that I would rather risk the main cameras than suffer with the interface, awkward grip and post-processing of Fuji files.

 

[Smogg]

I thought the Leica and Hasselblad are weather sealed. Are they not?

Unfortunately, Leica M lenses are not protected from bad weather conditions in any way, unlike L lenses for Leica SL. I have not found any information about the level of protection from rain for Hasselblad.

 

[Bags27]

I thought the Leica and Hasselblad are weather sealed. Are they not?

Unfortunately, Leica M lenses are not protected from bad weather conditions in any way, unlike L lenses for Leica SL. I have not found any information about the level of protection from rain for Hasselblad.

Right, though M lenses are pretty robust: the choice of so many action/combat film photographers in days long ago. I've never worried, at least with the occasional shower. Pretty much what I feel comfortable shooting in, M glass seems to be ok with.

HB has been very cagey with its rating. In some cases, it implies protection without giving a rating; in other cases, crickets.

 

[left eye]

I understand your feelings very well. I have 2 M11 and an X2D. On July 12th I bought a GFX 100S II as a backup camera for rain and places where I wouldn't risk taking a Leica or Hasselblad. But after 3 weeks of active use and a week-long trip to London, I sold the Fuji today. I decided that I would rather risk the main cameras than suffer with the interface, awkward grip and post-processing of Fuji files.

Going back to the OP, how do you like your Leica lenses on the X2D?

 

[Smogg]

Going back to the OP, how do you like your Leica lenses on the X2D?

For me, I don't see the point in using Leica lenses on the X2D. On the M11 I use 35APO and 50 APO, rarely 28 summicron, on the X2D 38 and 55, less often 35-75 and 90, very rarely 28. When I need speed and compactness I use the M11, when color is more important I use the X2D. On a sunny day I also prefer the M11, since the dynamic range of any EVF is very limited.

 

[left eye]

Going back to the OP, how do you like your Leica lenses on the X2D?

For me, I don't see the point in using Leica lenses on the X2D.

When the OP gets back to this thread we’ll see what conclusions they’ve drawn, I suspect it’ll be to cease using adapted lenses and bite the bullet and buy native.

On the M11 I use 35APO and 50 APO, rarely 28 summicron, on the X2D 38 and 55, less often 35-75 and 90, very rarely 28. When I need speed and compactness I use the M11, when color is more important I use the X2D. On a sunny day I also prefer the M11, since the dynamic range of any EVF is very limited.

I’m glad you observe that about EVF’s! - and not say they are better in every regard than dinosaur OVF’s!

 

[SrMi]

Going back to the OP, how do you like your Leica lenses on the X2D?

For me, I don't see the point in using Leica lenses on the X2D. On the M11 I use 35APO and 50 APO, rarely 28 summicron, on the X2D 38 and 55, less often 35-75 and 90, very rarely 28. When I need speed and compactness I use the M11, when color is more important I use the X2D. On a sunny day I also prefer the M11, since the dynamic range of any EVF is very limited.

On a high contrast day, sunny or cloudy, I use X2D in M mode and turn off the exposure simulation. Still not as good for framing as an OVF.