Dynamic range, how much do you need in your editing?

[BartPhilip]

Hi;

always a debate and for lots a downer if dynamic range is not that great in a new camera.
when I edit my photos I never go beyond 3 stops over or under the exposure. So I don’t understand why a 10 stop dynamic range camera is considered not that good.
what is your DR range when editing your photos to get the best out of an image?

Bart

 

[MJ_Photo38]

Assuming my image is correctly exposed from the get go (which is made easy with mirrorless cameras and "what you see is what you get" viewfinder + live histogram directly in the EVF), I generally don't over-edit my images to the point that I get over +/- 3 stops of adjustments.

I've had the occasional stop shadow push, but those were extremely rare instances. My current editing software of choice is Capture One and when it comes to exposure adjustments, they don't allow more than +/- 4 stops anyway (without taking shadow and highlight sliders in account) and since I've started using C1, I don't think I've ever hit that ceiling.

Most of my editing work is based around colors, not exposure. So really, if you look at it, even a camera like a D700 from 2008 would be able to give me good results that's I'd be happy using. I'm using a Z6 as my main camera at the moment, but I really don't use the full potential of that sensor when it comes to dynamic range (high ISO noise performance is another story)

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Hi;

always a debate and for lots a downer if dynamic range is not that great in a new camera.
when I edit my photos I never go beyond 3 stops over or under the exposure.

You can't over or under-expose when editing. Exposure happens when you press the shutter button. Probably you mean the 'exposure' slider in Lightroom, but it only stimulates a change in exposure.

So I don’t understand why a 10 stop dynamic range camera is considered not that good.

There's a scene dynamic range and there's dynamic range of your camera. The more DR your camera has, the broader range of scenes it can capture. If the DR of the scene is wider, you simply can capture all the tones in one shot.

10 stops was ok maybe 10-15 year ago, now it's a little bit too low for a modern camera.

what is your DR range when editing your photos to get the best out of an image?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly - what do you think the dynamic range is?

 

[BartPhilip]

Why is 10 stops DR not enough if in Lightroom I never go past -3, +3 with the exposure slider?

will a high DR camera show better result doing the same edit (-3,+3)?

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Why is 10 stops DR not enough if in Lightroom I never go past -3, +3 with the exposure slider?

How do you think those numbers are related? Why would 10-stop DR be enough if you never go past -3, +3 stops?

It's not really about Lightroom sliders, it's about the tonal range of the scene that fits (or doesn't fit) into the DR of your sensor/camera.

will a high DR camera show better result doing the same edit (-3,+3)?

Roughly speaking, a higher DR camera will have cleaner shadows, so generally your will be able to lift the shadows more (before they become too noisy), compared to a camera with lower DR and given the exact same scene and exposure (shutter speed and f-number).

--
https://www.instagram.com/quarkcharmed/
https://500px.com/quarkcharmed

 

[Howard V]

Dynamic range is represented by how broad is the range of tonal values in the scene that is represented on the histogram. Exposure is represented by how far to the right or left those values are skewed.

Dynamic range and exposure are two different, though related aspects that are represented on the histogram of a scene - either when shooting or editing.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Dynamic range is represented by how broad is the range of tonal values in the scene that is represented on the histogram.

No it's not how the dynamic range is defined, not even remotely close.

Exposure is represented by how far to the right or left those values are skewed.

No it's not unfortunately.

Dynamic range and exposure are two different, though related aspects that are represented on the histogram of a scene - either when shooting or editing.

The dynamic range is not defined through the histogram.

 

[Mako2011]

Dynamic range is represented by how broad is the range of tonal values in the scene that is represented on the histogram.

No it's not how the dynamic range is defined, not even remotely close.

Actually pretty close as dynamic range (of the image) is expressed by the in camera histogram..to a degree. DR of the actual scene is not represented by the histogram (unless the scene DR is well less than the camera can capture?) ...but the OP is speaking more to post capture...so a bit apples to oranges

Dynamic range and exposure are two different, though related aspects that are represented on the histogram of a scene - either when shooting or editing.

The dynamic range is not defined through the histogram.

But it can be, and often is, represented/expressed by a histogram. One example..The higher the dynamic range your camera body has, the wider your histograms representative range can be. If your camera has a high dynamic range, it means that you have more steps before black becomes white than someone with a lower dynamic range. That said...histogram represents exposure better than it does true pre-capture scene/camera DR in most cases.

One example of a histogram giving some DR info...I think one can tell from the histogram if the scene itself, with a given exposure, had a lower or higher DR than the camera captured. How useful...depends. Can affect ones exposure decisions though. Very useful when shooting uni-WB as in that case the histogram is optimized to represent/express the DR of the scene

 

[StrugglingforLight]

Hi;

always a debate and for lots a downer if dynamic range is not that great in a new camera.
when I edit my photos I never go beyond 3 stops over or under the exposure.

You can't over or under-expose when editing. Exposure happens when you press the shutter button. Probably you mean the 'exposure' slider in Lightroom, but it only stimulates a change in exposure.

So I don’t understand why a 10 stop dynamic range camera is considered not that good.

There's a scene dynamic range and there's dynamic range of your camera. The more DR your camera has, the broader range of scenes it can capture. If the DR of the scene is wider, you simply can capture all the tones in one shot.

10 stops was ok maybe 10-15 year ago, now it's a little bit too low for a modern camera.

what is your DR range when editing your photos to get the best out of an image?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly - what do you think the dynamic range is?

Two of the best APS-C cameras on the market have a dynamic range of 10.95 (A6700) and 10.43 (XT5). The OM1 Mark II has 9.69. G9 Mark II 10.54. Those are numbers from Photons to Photos.

That doesn't seem like a massive jump from "10 stops was ok maybe 10-15 years ago, now it's a little bit too low for a modern camera."

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Dynamic range is represented by how broad is the range of tonal values in the scene that is represented on the histogram.

No it's not how the dynamic range is defined, not even remotely close.

Actually pretty close as dynamic range (of the image) is expressed by the in camera histogram..to a degree. DR of the actual scene is not represented by the histogram (unless the scene DR is well less than the camera can capture?) ...but the OP is speaking more to post capture...so a bit apples to oranges

Here's an arbitrary histogram from Lightroom. What's the dynamic range of the image post-capture? Or can we tell the dynamic range of the camera?

But it can be, and often is, represented/expressed by a histogram.

It's expressed by a single number - typically in photography, in stops.

One example..The higher the dynamic range your camera body has, the wider your histograms representative range can be.

Exactly. The histogram frame and its elements will be the same size, but the dynamic range will be different.

One example of a histogram giving some DR info...I think one can tell from the histogram if the scene itself, with a given exposure, had a lower or higher DR than the camera captured.

Phase One afaik shows raw histogram, otherwise the histogram you see does not show if the scene fits the camera's dynamic range. Even with the raw histogram it's problematic.

How useful...depends.

The histogram is a useful tool, but the dynamic range isn't defined through the histogram.



--

Login • Instagram

Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.

www.instagram.com

500px

500px.com

 

[George 68]

Why is 10 stops DR not enough if in Lightroom I never go past -3, +3 with the exposure slider?

will a high DR camera show better result doing the same edit (-3,+3)?

You haven't understood what dynamic range is (maybe I haven't but here goes).

Dynamic range in a camera is the number of stops beween pure black and pure white. The higher the dynamic range of the camera the finer the gradation between those is.

For example, a camera with one stop DR would make images like this.

What dynamic range does in editing is to allow you some leeway with the sliders without making the image look unnatural or blocky. Without decent dynamic range, you couldn't apply your +/- 3 stops in editing without ending up with large areas of pure white or pure black.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Hi;

always a debate and for lots a downer if dynamic range is not that great in a new camera.
when I edit my photos I never go beyond 3 stops over or under the exposure.

You can't over or under-expose when editing. Exposure happens when you press the shutter button. Probably you mean the 'exposure' slider in Lightroom, but it only stimulates a change in exposure.

So I don’t understand why a 10 stop dynamic range camera is considered not that good.

There's a scene dynamic range and there's dynamic range of your camera. The more DR your camera has, the broader range of scenes it can capture. If the DR of the scene is wider, you simply can capture all the tones in one shot.

10 stops was ok maybe 10-15 year ago, now it's a little bit too low for a modern camera.

what is your DR range when editing your photos to get the best out of an image?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly - what do you think the dynamic range is?

Two of the best APS-C cameras on the market have a dynamic range of 10.95 (A6700) and 10.43 (XT5). The OM1 Mark II has 9.69. G9 Mark II 10.54. Those are numbers from Photons to Photos.

That doesn't seem like a massive jump from "10 stops was ok maybe 10-15 years ago, now it's a little bit too low for a modern camera."

You're right - I implied modern full frame cameras.

10 stops for APS-C or more so MFT is good.

 

[Mako2011]

Dynamic range is represented by how broad is the range of tonal values in the scene that is represented on the histogram.

No it's not how the dynamic range is defined, not even remotely close.

Actually pretty close as dynamic range (of the image) is expressed by the in camera histogram..to a degree. DR of the actual scene is not represented by the histogram (unless the scene DR is well less than the camera can capture?) ...but the OP is speaking more to post capture...so a bit apples to oranges

Here's an arbitrary histogram from Lightroom. What's the dynamic range of the image post-capture? Or can we tell the dynamic range of the camera?

If you know the camera and it's DR at different ISO's, info often available, easy to tell. I use uni-wb from time to time so know the DR represented by the histogram with those bodies. In this case, for example, had it been a 5DmrkIV the histogram shown below represents about 61/2 stops

But it can be, and often is, represented/expressed by a histogram.

It's expressed by a single number

And sometimes represented by the histogram as well...as seen above in your histogram

One example of a histogram giving some DR info...I think one can tell from the histogram if the scene itself, with a given exposure, had a lower or higher DR than the camera captured.

Phase One afaik shows raw histogram,otherwise the histogram you see does not show if the scene fits the camera's dynamic range. Even with the raw histogram it's problematic.

Most certainty can in the case where there is no clipping left or right

How useful...depends. The histogram is a useful tool, but the dynamic range isn't defined through the histogram.

But the DR can and is often represented/expressed by the histogram

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Why is 10 stops DR not enough if in Lightroom I never go past -3, +3 with the exposure slider?

will a high DR camera show better result doing the same edit (-3,+3)?

You haven't understood what dynamic range is (maybe I haven't but here goes).

Dynamic range in a camera is the number of stops beween pure black and pure white.

No, it's not how it's defined. The number of stops between the pure white and pure black is infinity.

The higher the dynamic range of the camera the finer the gradation between those is.

Gradation does not define the dynamic range.

For example, a camera with one stop DR would make images like this.

No, the image would have two types of pixels: with brightness X and brightness 2X (and actually maybe more in between). Visually it'll be very flat, very low contrast.

What dynamic range does in editing is to allow you some leeway with the sliders without making the image look unnatural or blocky. Without decent dynamic range, you couldn't apply your +/- 3 stops in editing without ending up with large areas of pure white or pure black.

Try heavy shadow lifting on an arbitrary high contrast raw image - you won't see pure black. You'll see a lot of noise instead.

--
https://www.instagram.com/quarkcharmed/
https://500px.com/quarkcharmed

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Dynamic range is represented by how broad is the range of tonal values in the scene that is represented on the histogram.

No it's not how the dynamic range is defined, not even remotely close.

Actually pretty close as dynamic range (of the image) is expressed by the in camera histogram..to a degree. DR of the actual scene is not represented by the histogram (unless the scene DR is well less than the camera can capture?) ...but the OP is speaking more to post capture...so a bit apples to oranges

Here's an arbitrary histogram from Lightroom. What's the dynamic range of the image post-capture? Or can we tell the dynamic range of the camera?

If you know the camera and it's DR at different ISO's, info often available, easy to tell.

If you know the DR figures, there's no need in histogram to determine it.

I use uni-wb from time to time so know the DR represented by the histogram with those bodies. In this case, for example, had it been a 5DmrkIV the histogram shown below represents about 61/2 stops

This histogram (any Lightroom histogram) represents a gamma-corrected RGB image, it may actually fit 11 stops. But the issue is, from the histogram we don't see how clean the shadows are. We can tell there are deep shadows but we don't know if they're usable.

UniWB is mostly about highlight clipping, it doesn't show whether the shadows are usable, so it doesn't help determine the dynamic range either.

Phase One afaik shows raw histogram,otherwise the histogram you see does not show if the scene fits the camera's dynamic range. Even with the raw histogram it's problematic.

Most certainty can in the case where there is no clipping left or right

Yes, but it doesn't show the dynamic range in general because it may show clipping where there's no clipping in raw. And when it shows no clipping in the shadows, we don't know if the shadows are usable.

How useful...depends. The histogram is a useful tool, but the dynamic range isn't defined through the histogram.

But the DR can and is often represented/expressed by the histogram

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

--
https://www.instagram.com/quarkcharmed/
https://500px.com/quarkcharmed

 

[Bill Ferris]

I'm a wildlife and bird photographer. Between May 2018 and May 2024, my primary camera was a Nikon D500 which has about 9 stops of dynamic range when working with an exposure compatible with ISO 400. ISO 400 is the dual conversion gain point for the D400.

The Z9 I've been shooting with the last few months has about 10 stops of dynamic range at its dual gain point of ISO 500. Using modern noise reduction tools such as Lightroom Classic's Enhance tool, an exposure compatible with ISO 3200 (7 stops of dynamic range in the Z9) can produce a lovely, detailed image.

The key to understanding what amount of dynamic range a photographer needs is the dynamic range of the scenes they work with. I put a lot of time and effort into putting myself and my camera into position to photograph subjects in good light.

"Good" light is light that illuminates my subject without placing the face or other important areas in deep shadow. Noise lives in the shadows. If the lighting is good, there will be shadows - light illuminates, shadows define - but important details won't be lost in those shadows.

An overcast day with softbox quality light illuminating a field is perfection, as far as I'm concerned. While the light level is subdued, shadows are softer, more gradual. An animal in this lighting can be seen and appreciated in all its magnificence.

That's how I shoot. Another photographer may love the drama deep shadows add to a photo. But they may not want those shadows to be empty dark voids. This kind of high dynamic range scene - a scene with a wide range of lightness between black and white - benefits from a camera that's capable of capturing detail in both highlights and shadows in a single exposure. This is what a camera's dynamic range tells us.

There are scenes and lighting condition where a camera having 6 stops of dynamic range will produce a publishable, award-winning photo. In more dramatic lighting and with different photographic goals, the more dynamic range the better. Ten, eleven, twelve stops or more may be what the photographer needs.

Even if a camera doesn't have the dynamic range a photographer desires, there are field techniques that will overcome this. Exposure bracketing and exposure stacking are two approaches. Noise reduction software is another tool that can help a system to punch above its weight class when it comes to the mitigating the negatives of limited dynamic range.

 

[Mako2011]

If you know the camera and it's DR at different ISO's, info often available, easy to tell.

If you know the DR figures, there's no need in histogram to determine it.

We use the histogram to represent the DR, not determine it. And there are many reasons that has practical benefit

I use uni-wb from time to time so know the DR represented by the histogram with those bodies. In this case, for example, had it been a 5DmrkIV the histogram shown below represents about 61/2 stops

But the issue is, from the histogram we don't see how clean the shadows are. We can tell there are deep shadows but we don't know if they're usable.

But the histogram lets us know detail was captured there...so we have a reason to go look and see how usable

UniWB is mostly about highlight clipping, it doesn't show whether the shadows are usable, so it doesn't help determine the dynamic range either.

Not the case? ...yes, used to help set exposure just shy of clipping but also gives good info at the other end as well. Sometimes helps decide if exposure should be set to clip a little to preserve shadow details. Histogram represents/expresses DR ... DR is determined well before the camera leaves the bag

Phase One afaik shows raw histogram,otherwise the histogram you see does not show if the scene fits the camera's dynamic range. Even with the raw histogram it's problematic.

Most certainty can in the case where there is no clipping left or right

Yes, but it doesn't show the dynamic range in general because it may show clipping where there's no clipping in raw.

If you know your camera and it's histogram, can indeed be a very good indication of dynamic range (in general) even when there may be no clipping in the raw file. I find that especially true when photographing roses

 

[Hike Pics]

I have to admit that I have no idea. When the image looks good to me I take it out of the oven.

Most people in the more modern world of DR would say my gear doesn't have enough in the first place.

 

[Mako2011]

I have to admit that I have no idea. When the image looks good to me I take it out of the oven.

A very good approach

Most people in the more modern world of DR would say my gear doesn't have enough in the first place.

They would be wrong...99.9% of the time. But there are very rare cases when they would be right...and the results, when leveraged well (also rare), are often stunning

 

[ishwanu]

when I edit my photos I never go beyond 3 stops over or under the exposure.

If you're saying you never adjust the brightness of any part of any image by more than +/- 3 stops, I think that applies to a large percentage of photographers. However, that's not really the point.

So I don’t understand why a 10 stop dynamic range camera is considered not that good.

Some scenes have very high dynamic range - think a bright day on a beach with the sun in the scene and people under umbrellas and a cave nearby with interesting details inside. Now shoot that scene with a camera that has a dynamic range of 6 stops and another camera with a dynamic range of 12 stops. If your goal is to represent all those tones in that scene as closely as possible by adjusting things in post, the result with the lower dynamic range camera will show more visible noise and/or more blown highlights. The ability to adjust the brightness of areas in your image editor doesn't overcome that fact.

However, if the scenes you want to photograph have much less dynamic range, the difference in the results won't be as pronounced.

A camera with 10 stops of dynamic range is fine for plenty of images, but a camera with 12 or 14 stops would be able to represent a wider range of scenes with less visible noise or blown highlights.

what is your DR range when editing your photos to get the best out of an image?

I don't understand that question.