a7r firmware for shutter shock

[osv]

i gave the #1 example:

1: existing on or coming from the outside <extraneous light>

2a : not forming an essential or vital part <extraneousornamentation>b : having no relevance <an extraneous digression>

3: being a number obtained in solving an equation that is not a solution of the equation <extraneous roots>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extraneous

So you agree there is more than one definition.

there is always more than one definition, but my definition was correct because it was based on usage in the sentence.

unfortunately the english language is really weak like that, so it's easy to misunderstand.

What are we talking about? The impact on an image. Do you form an image without a lens? If not, then how is the lens "outside" of the system making the image?

my view is, your argument about focal length affecting vibration intensity is not wrong.

what it does is totally detract from the real issue at hand here.

 

[osv]

relevance means nothing to you?

It means a lot - the two concepts (magnitude and relevance) are related.

correct.

the link you posted indicates that the d800 may have a bigger vibration problem than the a7r does.

Do you understand the units of those graphs?

did you read his conclusion?

beyond that... you've clearly never done any serious imatest work, or you'd know how faulty the test procedure was.

why do i always have to be the one to bring up "shutter shock" in other cameras, when noobs attack the a7r platform.

Some "other" platforms also have a mode to eliminate shutter shock. Some systems have more mass relative to the momentum and have a different balance point so that shutter shock impacts images less. A few are worse than the A7R.

we should be able to agree that medium format was much worse than the a7r is.

but, lacking any sort of measurement/comparison ability, your ongoing claim that the a7r somehow stands alone is nothing more than conjecture.

 

[Erik Magnuson]

Do you understand the units of those graphs?

did you read his conclusion?

Yes. Where does it say the D800/D810 has as much or more of a problem than the A7R as you claimed it does?

beyond that... you've clearly never done any serious imatest work, or you'd know how faulty the test procedure was.

Do I think or care that the absolute MTF numbers are useful? No. Do I think that the relative difference between the values gives an approximation as to the magnitude of the effect? Yes.

But if you think the procedure is invalid, then you really have no basis for your claim the D800 (or D810) is better worse than the A7R -- you can't have it both ways.

we should be able to agree that medium format was much worse than the a7r is.

It was mirror slap that was the big problem; that's why you used the dual cable release on an RB67 to trip the shutter after the mirror was up.

your ongoing claim that the a7r somehow stands alone is nothing more than conjecture.

Exactly where did I make that claim?

I think we now agree that my OP and title is correct: the impact on an image depends on shutter-speed, lens, orientation & support.

 

[philip pj]

It got past many but the D800 suffered a lot of the same kinds of ill-understood and overblown criticisms upon its launch. They sit in the archives, if you want to see that this kind of complaint is not brand-specific.

Experienced photographers have been dealing with all manner of operational matters forever, of course...but today's buyers are rather precious and need perfection. Salvation - should you actually need it - is a close as an ND filter or a different aperture, but that must be just too hard.

The major problem for the a7r is that people are using it for everything from bolt-on TS setups to holiday snaps. And weary pros, tired of hauling Nikon's heavy industry cameras but wanting 50 inch prints, demand Sony fix the 'problem'. It would make a cat laugh, to think long telephotos belong on 465 gram bodies, all sitting atop Rube Goldberg constructions and tripods. I would not use a DSLR for discreet work for the same reason - it is not the appropriate use of such a camera!

I would rather deal with almost invisible shutter shock that leaves me with fabulous images than deal with the performance shock of most other cameras.

 

[osv]

Do you understand the units of those graphs?

did you read his conclusion?

Yes. Where does it say the D800/D810 has as much or more of a problem than the A7R as you claimed it does?

"My interpretation of the curves is that the mirror slap of the D800E induces a lower frequency forcing function than that of the shutter winding operation and first curtain motion of the a7R, when combined with the slightly higher mass of the Nikon, allows the D800E to reach the full resolution potential of the lens at 1/500 second handheld. However, the D800E’s mirror and shutter system delivers a larger shock to the camera body than the shutter system of the a7R, causing the D800E to fare worse at the slower shutter speeds."

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=5188

beyond that... you've clearly never done any serious imatest work, or you'd know how faulty the test procedure was.

Do I think or care that the absolute MTF numbers are useful? No. Do I think that the relative difference between the values gives an approximation as to the magnitude of the effect? Yes.

if i had to guess, i'd say that's because: 1)you don't know what scientific procedure is, 2)you don't have a clue how imatest works, because you've never used it.

But if you think the procedure is invalid, then you really have no basis for your claim the D800 (or D810) is better worse than the A7R -- you can't have it both ways.

the only claim i made was based on the link you posted, which you obviously never read, per the above.

funny how you want your own link to prove it one way, but not the other... you can't have it both ways.

your ongoing claim that the a7r somehow stands alone is nothing more than conjecture.

Exactly where did I make that claim?

oh, you said something good about the a7r in this thread? where?

do you even own an a7r?

I think we now agree that my OP and title is correct: the impact on an image depends on shutter-speed, lens, orientation & support.

irrelevant to the thread, as i pointed out earlier.

--
dan

 

[Smokymtnhiker]

I never noticed any shutter shock with my A7R. It might have something to do with the 6 pound Manfrotto Bogen tripod I use.

 

[captura]

Fixing shutter shock by firemware is really dependent upon the make& & model of the camera. Sony was unable to fix the problem with early NEXES and finally installed the electronic first curtain shutter in the NEX-F3 model.

Olympus could never fix their problems with shutter shock until the E-M1 model and that actually was done with some kind of firmware compensation.

Thew isdea with the A7r apparently, was to make it a more minimalist kind of camera...a super-performance model, like a race car, missing all kinds of bells & whistles. Sony figured that any photographer worth his salt would know that if the shutter speed is maintained over 1/100 or 1/200 second, SS would never be a problem. Maybe Sony could not imagine that a such a forum as this would ever exist. A Making mountains out of molehills forum.

 

[captura]

Where has the OP gone, and was he being sincere?

The new Nikon D810 has the very same sensor as the Sony A7r. But Nikon have managed to engineer some improvements into the operation of this Sony sensor so shutter shock/ other issues may be improved. My apologies if somebody mentioned this already, as I don't have time to read the whole thread.

My point is that surely Sony will do the same, in a future A7r MKII.

 

[captura]

Where has the OP gone, and was he being sincere?

The new Nikon D810 has the very same sensor as the Sony A7r. But Nikon have managed to engineer some improvements into the operation of this Sony sensor so shutter shock/ other issues may be improved. My apologies if somebody mentioned this already, as I don't have time to read the whole thread.

My point is that surely Sony will do the same, in a future A7r MKII.

Regardless whether the Nikon D810 has the same sensor or not, it is an SLR not a mirrorless camera. And a much larger, heavier device as well. The vibration dynamics of the two cameras could not be more dissimilar as they are driven by the mechanical parts of the camera, not the sensor characteristics.

 

[Barugon]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

 

[nevercat]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

 

[captura]

The new Nikon D810 has the very same sensor as the Sony A7r.

No, the D800/D800E have the same basic sensor as the A7. The D810 has a new revision and they are not interchangeable.

My point is that surely Sony will do the same, in a future A7r MKII.

Yes, but not via a firmware change - it will also require the updated sensor.

 

[Barugon]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

 

[nevercat]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

Indeed, Olympus did the delay thing, no EFC.

 

[Barugon]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

BTW, electronic first curtain is nothing more than powering on each row in sequence, which every sensor does today unless it has circuitry for global shutter. The only issue is the timing. Even the a7 has issues at higher shutter speeds with EFC.

 

[Barugon]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

Indeed, Olympus did the delay thing, no EFC.

They implemented EFC up to 1/320s.

 

[nevercat]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

Indeed, Olympus did the delay thing, no EFC.

They implemented EFC up to 1/320s.

You're right! I'm wrong! Thanks I learn something new everyday!

 

[SQLGuy]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

Indeed, Olympus did the delay thing, no EFC.

They implemented EFC up to 1/320s.

You're right! I'm wrong! Thanks I learn something new everyday!

That is interesting. The fact that they limited it, though, sounds to me like they maybe were working on EFCS originally for the EM1, but had some problems at higher shutter speeds and decided to skip the feature. Going back and enabling it still says the hardware needs to support it. Apparently the EM1 sensor does support it.

If all my supposition is correct, then the next question is whether the A7R sensor could do EFCS at all.

--

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD); A3000 converted to IR.

 

[captura]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

Olympus did not employ the normally used EFCS in order to solve their shutter shock problem, already occuring in the high-end model E-M1. Instead, they became creative. For years, an owner always had a choice to choose from a choice of delays in their M43 cameras. (I always selected 1/8 sec. in the menu.) Now for the first time some unique methods ere used to eliminate shutter shock right out of the box. With zero time delay required. With a new Firmware Update....

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Firmware Version 1.3 (March 31, 2014)

"With an electronic first curtain, the exposure is started by a purely electronic process (as the name implies). Some manufacturers such as Canon and Sony have used this for several years, as it can be used to entirely eliminate any vibration from the physical shutter action. Olympus's implementation is however subtly different - the physical shutter still closes and opens as usual, but the exposure is slightly delayed to allow any vibrations to die down, and then started electronically. This is also the first time we've seen it added via a firmware update, and specifically to reduce image blurring."

• Dynamic range has been expanded when using the external mic. The sound level adjustment has been changed to adjust to 21 levels in accordance with this.
• A function to turn the Volume Limiter on and off was added. When it is on, it automatically limits the mic input volume if sound input volume exceeds the designated level.
• A 0 second setting has been added to Anti-Shock mode.
• The camera operation when the Frame Rate of live view is [High] have been improved.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/41...e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock

Our sometimes-and very worthwhile contributor Ming Thein had this to say:

http://blog.mingthein.com/2014/04/01/new-olympus-e-m1-firmware/

 

[captura]

It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.

It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.

EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.

Olympus did it.

Olympus did not employ the normally used EFCS in order to solve their shutter shock problem, already occuring in the high-end model E-M1. Instead, they became creative. For years, an owner always had a choice to choose from a choice of delays in their M43 cameras. (I always selected 1/8 sec. in the menu.) Now for the first time some unique methods ere used to eliminate shutter shock right out of the box. With zero time delay required. With a new Firmware Update....

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Firmware Version 1.3 (March 31, 2014)

"With an electronic first curtain, the exposure is started by a purely electronic process (as the name implies). Some manufacturers such as Canon and Sony have used this for several years, as it can be used to entirely eliminate any vibration from the physical shutter action. Olympus's implementation is however subtly different - the physical shutter still closes and opens as usual, but the exposure is slightly delayed to allow any vibrations to die down, and then started electronically. This is also the first time we've seen it added via a firmware update, and specifically to reduce image blurring."

• Dynamic range has been expanded when using the external mic. The sound level adjustment has been changed to adjust to 21 levels in accordance with this.
• A function to turn the Volume Limiter on and off was added. When it is on, it automatically limits the mic input volume if sound input volume exceeds the designated level.
• A 0 second setting has been added to Anti-Shock mode.
• The camera operation when the Frame Rate of live view is [High] have been improved.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/41...e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock

Our sometimes-and very worthwhile contributor Ming Thein had this to say:

http://blog.mingthein.com/2014/04/01/new-olympus-e-m1-firmware/

Anti-shock 0 setting is EFCS up to 1/320s. After that it's normal shutter. They also updated the E-P5 with the same feature.

Do you have a link for that? And what about the E-M10 and the E-M5?