A "Beginner's" question about manual settings

[Jones0610]

I've been shooting 35mm since the 1970's and have had a digital camera for ten years. I sort of understand the basics of how a camera operates but this is one of those situations where the more you learn, the less you understand.

I recently purchased a D7000 and after using it for a few months I enrolled in a beginner DSLR class to hopefully learn something. I won't bore you with the details but the instructor doesn't seem all that interested in answering questions or in providing useful information so I thought I'd inquire here.

Most of the time, my D7000 takes great pictures in scene modes. The root of my question/confusion is: I am adjusting the D7000 to manual settings that are VERY close to the choices the D7000 makes in it's various auto modes. Why, then, do the shots in auto mode (on a tripod, shots taken seconds apart) look worse and sometimes a LOT worse in manual than they do in auto?

I'm assuming I must be doing something fundamentally wrong with my camera but I'm not getting any help from the professor other than a shoulder shrug.

There's a lot of detail and samples at:

http://www.theoriginaleasyrider.com/pcc_second.htm

Many thanks in advance!

 

[bgD300]

modes cover a lot more than just iso/aperture/shutterspeed. They also affect the post processing options for sharpening, contrast, saturation, etc.
--
My photo blog: http://birdsnbugs.wordpress.com
My camera club porfolio: http://www.pacameraclub.com/bgrant.htm
RF Stock Portfolio - http://www.dreamstime.com/resp129611
EXIF is embedded in photos WSSA #51 as bg5700

 

[eddyshoots]

I've been shooting 35mm since the 1970's and have had a digital camera for ten years. I sort of understand the basics of how a camera operates but this is one of those situations where the more you learn, the less you understand.

I recently purchased a D7000 and after using it for a few months I enrolled in a beginner DSLR class to hopefully learn something. I won't bore you with the details but the instructor doesn't seem all that interested in answering questions or in providing useful information so I thought I'd inquire here.

Most of the time, my D7000 takes great pictures in scene modes. The root of my question/confusion is: I am adjusting the D7000 to manual settings that are VERY close to the choices the D7000 makes in it's various auto modes. Why, then, do the shots in auto mode (on a tripod, shots taken seconds apart) look worse and sometimes a LOT worse in manual than they do in auto?

I'm assuming I must be doing something fundamentally wrong with my camera but I'm not getting any help from the professor other than a shoulder shrug.

There's a lot of detail and samples at:

http://www.theoriginaleasyrider.com/pcc_second.htm

Many thanks in advance!

Looked at your images and it's the same issue as last time....I think you are missing the focus of your assignments completely. Let's look at your four aperture assignment (2.0, 2.8, 16 and 22) Your instructor has assigned you to play around with differing apertures in order for you to have an "ah ha" moment about depth of field. The shots you are supposed to take at F2.0 through F22 should have greatly differing depths of field with different things in focus. Have a look at the following page: http://www.photocourse.com/itext/DOF/
Play around with the different apertures and see what is in focus.

I was given a similar assignment when I took a photography class a few years ago. I remember taking shots along the length of wrought iron fence. As I opened up my aperture less and less of the fence rails were in focus. As I stopped down my aperture more and more of the fence rails were in focus. Simple exercise with simple results. I think you are going off on too many tangents.

It appears that something is wrong with your student instructor relationship. Either he is a lousy instructor (don't like hearing that he shrugged you off) or you are a problem student (don't want to insult but it's always possible) or you two just don't have the right chemistry for learning (a little bit of both). I think you need to have a discussion with your instructor about what the goal of these assignments really is. Perhaps he's being too cryptic with his assignments.

At least one part of your problem is your insistence of using autoISO as you describe on your webpage. Auto ISO will raise the ISO value on any shot that the camera sees as underexposed....it renders much of what you are trying to learn as moot. In the first assignment you didn't see the differing exposure levels that you were supposed to see and learned nothing from that assignment. In this assignment your auto ISO is most likely raising the ISO value to very high levels for your small aperture shots which in turn introduces noise. On your building shots the F16 shot is at ISO 1600 while your F10 shot is at ISO 400. ISO 1600 will yield noticeably worse shots than ISO 400....I can only assume the F22 shot was at something like ISO3200 (more noise yet again). This extra parameter that you have introduces is making your results kind of useless. Turn auto ISO off during this class, you are not learning the basics of exposure with it on.

--
eddyshoots

 

[Mako2011]

I've been shooting 35mm since the 1970's and have had a digital camera for ten years. I sort of understand the basics of how a camera operates but this is one of those situations where the more you learn, the less you understand.

I recently purchased a D7000 and after using it for a few months I enrolled in a beginner DSLR class to hopefully learn something. I won't bore you with the details but the instructor doesn't seem all that interested in answering questions or in providing useful information so I thought I'd inquire here.

Most of the time, my D7000 takes great pictures in scene modes. The root of my question/confusion is: I am adjusting the D7000 to manual settings that are VERY close to the choices the D7000 makes in it's various auto modes. Why, then, do the shots in auto mode (on a tripod, shots taken seconds apart) look worse and sometimes a LOT worse in manual than they do in auto?

I'm assuming I must be doing something fundamentally wrong with my camera but I'm not getting any help from the professor other than a shoulder shrug.

There's a lot of detail and samples at:

http://www.theoriginaleasyrider.com/pcc_second.htm

Many thanks in advance!

I'm going to make an attempt to answer not because it's correct but by doing so it helps me understand, might also help you...and someone will come along and help us both.
Using just this pic as our example:

" This would have been a much better shot (IMHO) at f5.6 or f8 but the assignment was to shoot at f2.0, f2.8, f16 and f22. There just wasn't enough light to get a decent exposure at those small apertures unless I removed the overhead lamp from the scene."

The problem you're having is the instructor is giving you an assignment without providing a firm basis in what affects exposure and and how shutter speed and aperture affect that (ISO too but another story)

when you say " wasn't enough light to get a decent exposure at those small apertures unless I removed the overhead lamp " what do you mean? it was shot a f2.8 and 1/10".....the same scene could have been shot at f22 and a 4 sec exposure resulting in the same exposure but a different DOF.

In many of your other pics the softness you see is coming from shooting at much smaller an aperture than f8 so diffraction is robing some of the sharpness.

No disrespect but you need to go back to basics and understand the differences between large and small aperture, long and short shutter speeds, and how they interact. Scene modes help do that work for you while more manual selection requires you to decide if you need DOF, sharpness, stop motion, blurred background, etc.

I would recommend you read this ASAP before letting the instructor waste any more of your time.

Exposure: From Snapshots to Great Shots by Jeff Revell

Do not get discouraged....the transition to much better shots is just around the corner and will take just a bit a reading on your part. Good Luck.

 

[j_photo]

Many others can answer specifics better than I. But my advice is, if you enjoy photography and want to improve, be patient. It's not just a matter of a few simple formulas. There is a lot to learn, the skill of applying what you learn, and the development of a good eye. It takes time.

If you stick with it, you should do fine.

 

[Mako2011]

I sent you a private message with additional information that might be helpful.

 

[Jones0610]

Could you elaborate on that statement please?

If scene mode is pressing the lapels and polishing the images and none of that is being done in manual mode, I guess I'm missing the point of why anyone would want to shoot manual in most situations.

Twisting a lot of knobs to get shots that are going to require a lot of post processing versus shooting in scene mode seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. Since pretty much everyone on here is shooting in manual, your statement makes me wonder why that is.

 

[Noreen CT]

I sent you a private message with additional information that might be helpful.

Probably violating all kinds of forum etiquette here, but can you send that explanation to me also? I was struck by the comment in your last post b/c it completely describes me. And add DOF to the basics category.

"No disrespect but you need to go back to basics and understand the differences between large and small aperture, long and short shutter speeds, and how they interact"

I don't know if this link will work, but the explanation provided was fantastic.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=40420264

 

[Mako2011]

I guess I'm missing the point of why anyone would want to shoot manual in most situations.

You shoot in manual mode because you want your subject eyes in focus and everything behind here de-focused....or you want to shoot a an aperture that matches the sweet spot of your lens. It all depends on what you, the man behind the camera, is after.

Twisting a lot of knobs to get shots that are going to require a lot of post processing versus shooting in scene mode seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.

That's why you have a small bit a learning/understanding still ahead and many here are pointing you in a good direction.

Since pretty much everyone on here is shooting in manual, your statement makes me wonder why that is.

Very not true....most are actually using the exposure mode appropriate to the subject or desired affect. I suspect most here might actually be in Aperture Priority most often....just a guess...no facts.

 

[Mako2011]

I sent you a private message with additional information that might be helpful.

Probably violating all kinds of forum etiquette here, but can you send that explanation to me also? I was struck by the comment in your last post b/c it completely describes me. And add DOF to the basics category.

"No disrespect but you need to go back to basics and understand the differences between large and small aperture, long and short shutter speeds, and how they interact"

I don't know if this link will work, but the explanation provided was fantastic.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=40420264

Graystar does know his stuff and has been very helpful to me also. Regards DOF, I think this link does a very good job explaining it.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm
Basic exposure...this one
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-exposure.htm
Some points might not be perfectly accurate but a good basic explanation.

 

[sshoihet]

For the most part, the only reasons you would want to shoot in manual are flash indoors and at night when you need an exposure greater than 30s. Almost every other situation is better handled with PAS modes, exposure lock and EC.

If i have time, i'll choose the brightest or darkest part of the scene that i want to maintain detail, spot meter that, lock exposure and dial in the appropriate EC. Generally I'm most concerened about blowing out the highlights so I'll meter the brightest point and dial in +2.7.

For outdoors where the scene is rapidly changing eg. children or animals, you're better in PAS modes, matrix metering and dialing in some EC based on your best guess for the scene. I do that when I'm feeling lazy too

If i was shooting only jpgs I'd probably take more time to meter the scene to place middle grey in the right zone. Often when i shoot film i meter off the sky opposite to the sun at about 45 degrees, green grass, grey rocks or weathered wood.

 

[Jones0610]

I didn't post to complain about the class or the instructor. However, I have a college degree and have attended at least 3-4 courses a year for the past 40+ years thereafter so I know the difference between a good instructor and a not so good instructor. As for being a "bad student".... rather insulting since you know nothing about me. It's sort of like claiming that someone is a "bad customer", IMHO.

Since the instructor has declined to clearly state his lesson objectives, I don't know how I can be "missing the focus of my assignments completely". I only guessed that the last exercise was about DoF... when we reviewed our pictures last Friday it seemed that the purpose of the exercise was simply to twist a few knobs and then look at the pictures (4x6 prints) and see what, if anything, changed. As an aside, about 1/3 of the students have Nikons and ALL of them had the very same problem I did with ISO sensitivity being turned on without our knowledge. When I looked at my pictures I didn't understand why the DoF hadn't changed, since I expected that it would. I contacted the instructor about that and got an unresponsive reply. That's when I figured I might do better posting on here... and as a result, I was the ONLY Nikon shooter in the class who knew about the ISO sensitivity feature come class day.

I understand the trade-offs of having ISO sensitivity enabled. But my question was about D0F and focus, not exposure. The exposure for the several dozen shots I took were "ok" and not grainy at all.

The f22 shot was done at ISO 1400. I don't want to insult you either but you seem to want to jump to a lot of unfounded assumptions about me personally, what I'm doing and what I'm getting/not getting out of these assignments. Again, I am not here to slam the class or the instructor (or to be slammed).... I'm just trying to understand why I'm getting unexpected results from a fairly well controlled experiment. e.g. In scene mode, I got really good pictures, as I usually do. Setting the camera to the same shutter/aperture settings that the camera chose, verifying proper exposure and then shooting pictures that come out noticeable lower in quality (focus/D0F) has me scratching my head. It was my assumption going into this thread that I'M the one doing something wrong.

All I really care about right now is getting crisp focus so I don't know how that could be construed as "going off on too many tangents". The daffodil shots, in particular, make no sense to me. The focus and DoF was best (but even then not great) at f5.6 and f8 and got WORSE at the smaller apertures. Opening the aperture gave me the predicable results. The same with the green cone pics. I've read that these lenses have "sweet spots" which I thought might be around f16 on my 35mm 1.8 prime. In manual mode, I seem to get the best pictures at around f8 + - but even then they are not nearly as good as what the camera does in auto scene modes..

 

[Noreen CT]

I sent you a private message with additional information that might be helpful.

Probably violating all kinds of forum etiquette here, but can you send that explanation to me also? I was struck by the comment in your last post b/c it completely describes me. And add DOF to the basics category.

"No disrespect but you need to go back to basics and understand the differences between large and small aperture, long and short shutter speeds, and how they interact"

I don't know if this link will work, but the explanation provided was fantastic.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=40420264

Graystar does know his stuff and has been very helpful to me also. Regards DOF, I think this link does a very good job explaining it.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm
Basic exposure...this one
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-exposure.htm
Some points might not be perfectly accurate but a good basic explanation.

Thank you! I really have not needed to use math, other than basic arithmetic, since I finished calculus in high school. (Avoided math in college other than statistics.) This camera business is far too much like math class! Sincere thank you nonetheless. Will try this with a clearer head in the morning. Good night.

 

[Jones0610]

Much appreciated!

So let me ask you this. If I shoot in aperture priority mode and then shoot teh same scene in manual using that shutter speed that the camera selected in A mode, should I get the exact same focus/DoF, etc. (assuming that the lighting and so on doesn't change in between shots)?

If so, that sounds like a worthy experiment for tomorrow.

A lot of the stuff I read on here is waaaaaay over my head, which is why I am taking a beginner's class and have the Julie King book on how to operate this camera. At this point, if I can get aperture settings and shutter speeds to produce consistent, predicable results I'll be happy. At this point I am less worried about exposure since I know what knobs to turn to eventually get it right.

Another contributor to this thread mentioned small apertures causing "softness". Doesn't an increased DoF = better sharpness in the overall frame?

 

[Jones0610]

Appreciate the encouragement.

And that's sort of why I paid a pile of dough to attend a beginner's course. I was under the impression that the assumption would be that the students knew nothing and we'd progress from there. In the 6+ hours of classroom instruction so far, we've watched a 30 minute video on camera setting basics and looked at a PILE of pictures without any explanation. Oh, and we were told to read the user manual for our camera.

I guess I'm a little unclear about DoF versus sharpness. I understand the definitions, but maybe not the application. As examples, for the daylight pictures I posted on my web page, I wanted to have at least one or two shots in every scene that were crisply focused throughout. I expected (apparently incorrectly) that a properly exposed shot at f8 and higher would do that. In fact, during this experiment, the focus (or sharpness) got worse in some of the smallest apertures. I was also surprised to see that the f2 shot of the fire plug was LESS sharp than the shot I took right after it at f2.8.

Again, I am accepting that all of this is because I just don't "get" something. And I don't want to be on here annoying people by asking dopey questions. I'd say that around 2/3 of my fellow students are at least as confused and lost as I am, if not more. In a perfect world, the instructor who is being paid to learn us stuff {sic} would be more helpful but it is what it is. I've spent my life overcoming obstacles and I'm not going to let this guy slow me down.

 

[Jones0610]

I did read those as well as the rest of the papers in his series. Very well written clear and easy for a noob to understand. Should be in the FAQ link list somewhere.

Many thanks!

 

[sshoihet]

1) For at least a few of the scenes I selected, NONE of the manadated aperture settings producted decent pictures.

Good photographs are produced with good light, not evey lighting condition will result in a good photograph... sometimes you need to come back later. Bright light closer to the middle of the day creates harsh shadows and high contrast scenes. Look up the golden hour and blue hour. See http://jekophoto.eu/tools/twilight-calculator-blue-hour-golden-hour/

3) The sky is completely blown in the fire hydrant pictures although the exposure for the intended subjects seems fine. Wondering what I could have done to improve this shot.

If you have a scene that exceeds the dynamic range of your sensor you can either

1. use a graduated neutral density filter
2. shoot RAW, expose for the highlights and bring up the shadows
3. bracket your shots and blend them together in software

4) In the daffodil shots, using a small (f16 and f22) aperture resulted in WORSE overall focus and depth of field. The flowers were less in focus AND the handicapped parking sign in the background was more difficult to read when expanded. This has me scratching my head.

For sensor the size of the one in the D7000, diffraction softening starts to become more noticeable at apertures smaller than f11. The only time I generally shoot at smaller than f11 is at night when i want stars around lights. I expect that your instructor is getting you to use extreme ends of the aperture sizes so you can see how it affects depth of field.

5) Since the objective of this class is to (obstensibly) learn how to take better pictures, I have my camera set to override the specified ISO setting if the requested setting will produce an inferior shot. This does result in adding another variable to the exercise.... but fixing the speed at ISO 400 resulted in quite a few poorly exposed pictures while providing no up side advantage that I could see.

Using a tripod, you should be able to shoot at ISO 400 without any problems and produce excellent results. I would generally shoot at the lowest ISO that was practical, possibly the instructor chose 400 because this was a very common film ISO to use. When i shoot at night, sometimes an exposure greater than 30 seconds is required. I will meter the scene at a high ISO which the camera can give me an exposure for and then calculate what this woudl be at at the lower exposure. I then use the bulb setting with a remote release and time it with a stopwatch.

6) Someone needs to explain the following to me: My D7000 takes excellent shots 95% of the time when using automatic scene mode. It takes two seconds to set the camera up and take the shot. In manual mode, it takes a LOT longer to set the camera up and it's pretty much a requirement that you'll need to take at least a half dozen shots at various settings in order to get ONE that's ALMOST as good as the pictures the D7000 takes in auto mode. And except for tricky exposure situations (e.g. snow)

I have yet to take a better picture in manual mode than the D7000 provides in auto. Soooooo..... what am I doing wrong that I am not getting great shots in full manualeven when using settings that are VERY similar to those that the D7000 selected in auto mode?

I expect some lack of understanding is causing this. At the extreme ends of the aperture range that you are shooting at, you will generally not get the "best" pictures. Many lenses are not sharp wide open, and you have quite a thin depth of field. Also, you seem to be equating shallow depth of field with a "bad" picture. At the other extreme end you have a much greater depth of field but you experience more diffracion softening.

Here is a site that tests lenses, you will find charts that show the sharpness of each lens for it's apertures and if it's a zoom, different focal lengths. http://photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests

Here is a depth of field calculator where you can explore how aperture setting affect depth of field http://dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

I've been shooting 35mm since the 1970's and have had a digital camera for ten years. I sort of understand the basics of how a camera operates but this is one of those situations where the more you learn, the less you understand.

I recently purchased a D7000 and after using it for a few months I enrolled in a beginner DSLR class to hopefully learn something. I won't bore you with the details but the instructor doesn't seem all that interested in answering questions or in providing useful information so I thought I'd inquire here.

Most of the time, my D7000 takes great pictures in scene modes. The root of my question/confusion is: I am adjusting the D7000 to manual settings that are VERY close to the choices the D7000 makes in it's various auto modes. Why, then, do the shots in auto mode (on a tripod, shots taken seconds apart) look worse and sometimes a LOT worse in manual than they do in auto?

I'm assuming I must be doing something fundamentally wrong with my camera but I'm not getting any help from the professor other than a shoulder shrug.

There's a lot of detail and samples at:

http://www.theoriginaleasyrider.com/pcc_second.htm

Many thanks in advance!

 

[Mako2011]

I did read those as well as the rest of the papers in his series. Very well written clear and easy for a noob to understand. Should be in the FAQ link list somewhere.

Many thanks!

Did you read the private message I sent you, Frank?

 

[herbymel]

Honestly I don't see that eddyshoots as taking shots at you personally, I just see it as giving examples of things that could be in the realm of possibility...it does seem that you do want to take a lot personally. If you're going to be asking for advice, then be prepared for people to give you a wide range of advice and not be so touchy about it. He never said you were a problem student, just that it was something that was possible, and just possible with this particular teacher.
--
Herby

 

[Mako2011]

Appreciate the encouragement.

And that's sort of why I paid a pile of dough to attend a beginner's course. I was under the impression that the assumption would be that the students knew nothing and we'd progress from there. In the 6+ hours of classroom instruction so far, we've watched a 30 minute video on camera setting basics and looked at a PILE of pictures without any explanation. Oh, and we were told to read the user manual for our camera.

I guess I'm a little unclear about DoF versus sharpness. I understand the definitions, but maybe not the application. As examples, for the daylight pictures I posted on my web page, I wanted to have at least one or two shots in every scene that were crisply focused throughout. I expected (apparently incorrectly) that a properly exposed shot at f8 and higher would do that. In fact, during this experiment, the focus (or sharpness) got worse in some of the smallest apertures.

diffraction limits start to kick in.

I was also surprised to see that the f2 shot of the fire plug was LESS sharp than the shot I took right after it at f2.8.

In that case...your choice of AF-Area mode "auto" seems to be a player and it may be a focus issue. AF-Area mode "auto" looks at the scene and may not decide to focus on what you think it should. In the fire hydrant case it used the C6 point in one and the E2 point in the other. I suggest you stay in AF-Area mode "single" till you get it all worked out.

Again, I am accepting that all of this is because I just don't "get" something. And I don't want to be on here annoying people by asking dopey questions. I'd say that around 2/3 of my fellow students are at least as confused and lost as I am, if not more. In a perfect world, the instructor who is being paid to learn us stuff {sic} would be more helpful but it is what it is. I've spent my life overcoming obstacles and I'm not going to let this guy slow me down.

Don't worry, take your time and work on one concept at a time. Work on one setting at a time....when your sure you fully understand it, move on to the next. The links and book I suggested will help. Good Luck.