550D & 650D - same sensor

[inasir1971]

This is just a quick post to let people know what I have found out about the 650D.

I had been searching for a replacement for my aging 550D (over 100,000 clicks on it) to use with my EF-S 17-55 2.8 IS lens.

Anyway, I purchased a 650D (body only) and have been doing some quick comparisons.

I shot some images at ISO 6400 in RAW and processed in Lightroom 4.1, using Topaz Denoise for NR and downsampled to 8MP files (3600 x 2400) - that's enough for an 8 x 12 print at 300 DPI.

Canon have not used a new sensor. It appears to be the same as in the 550D, 600D, and 60D. I have owned and shot extensively with both the 60D and the 7D as well - though not the 600D.

The first thing to note is that if High ISO NR is enabled on the 650D - it seems to affect RAW files as well. Something is being done in camera and if you process RAW you will end up with a worse result by enabling high ISO NR (loss of detail). So if shooting RAW make sure you turn off high ISO NR.

You cannot tell the results of either camera apart.

How are the results at ISO 6400? Remarkably good but it depends on the subject. Dark areas show magenta patches after NR which cannot be dealt with. If the image only contains light areas - these are not visible. We should keep in mind that ISO 6400 really is pushing an APS-C camera so it is actually quite good. I haven't had time and was only checking the limits so to speak, but I would guess that ISO 3200 would not suffer from this issue (there are no intermediate steps).

How does the 650D differ from the 550D?

• AF with the center point is not any more or less accurate than the 550D. With the 17-55 2.8 IS USM, it is extremely fast, but not completely accurate all the time. The lack of AF micro-adjustment will be an issue for faster lenses.
• the big improvement is in the liveview AF which uses the sensor's new built in PDAF to get you into the 'zone' with CDAF fine-tuning it to give you much faster and accurate liveview focus. It is extremely fast. (The CDAF portion is also probably helped by the DIGIC 5)
• there is a new continuous focus option for liveview which is also interesting - though probably more interesting for people doing video.
• everything on the 650D (owing to the new processor) is faster than the other cameras.
• the swivel display is extremely nice and I am sure that some will appreciate the touch screen (which allows you to select the AF area in liveview)

Canon have chosen to not include the in camera RAW converter function which is included on some models like the 60D - though this really isn't something with any practical use as conversion on your computer will give you far better results.

Bottom line.

For me, as I process RAW, the image quality remains the same across the 550D, 600D, 60D, 650D, (I feel that these four are better image quality wise than the 7D). The additional range of ISO's you get on the 650D really aren't intended for normal use (the auto ISO functions max ISO is 6400) and are just more image processing by the DIGIC 5. I don't think they'll give you results that are usable.

The hybrid live-view AF however is ground breaking. Liveview AF has suddenly become much more usable. (for static subjects)

Out of the 550D, 600D, 60D and 650D - the new hybrid AF makes the 650D my choice. I prefer it over the 60D which apart from a slightly higher frame rate/burst has little else going for it over this. (Canon dropped the pro features that the 50D had like AF micro-adjust, N3 terminal etc.)

Hope this is useful.

 

[Ken53]

Thanks for posting your observations and comparisons. Very helpful indeed. Much appreciated.

Ken

 

[EDWARD ARTISTE]

Totally and completely agree. That's why I just bought myself a 550d as my middle road/backup (between a 7d and my super sharp xsi). All the testing and reviews i have read and samples checked, there is no real difference in image quality between these models.

But that 7d- im always disheartened looking at those raw files. So many issues. Strength in the highs, but the overall noisy mushiness almost led me to smash it on the pavement. The 7d's image quality has only impressed me when used with the 70-200 is II, noise issues notwithstanding.

--
'Only the dead have seen the end of war'

 

[ByronP]

Have you noticed any difference in the non center af point?

Bp

 

[inasir1971]

I have done some more shooting, now with max ISO set at 3200.

The AF is actually pretty accurate, more accurate than my earlier post may have suggested (I am aiming at very small targets like the label on my TV).

• all AF points seem equally accurate (I never used the other AF points on my 550D but my understanding is that the AF points (whether cross or line type) are not more or less accurate but they either will be able to AF or will not - cross type being able to lock onto more targets than the simple line type
• the new AF point selection method is improved - once you have selected choose AF point as before you can select the AF point by (i) rotating the dial; (ii) by pressing the set button to toggle between the center point and all points auto select; and (iii) now use the arrow keys to select whereas previously they would select WB or AF mode etc.

Liveview AF (set to flexi zone single) seems just as quick regardless of area selected.

NB As ISO is increased the pixels become noisy. This does not mean that the final image has to be noisy. Applying NR, downsampling and sharpening before output (which is the default Lightroom workflow) gives very good results right up to and including ISO 3200. The sensor is 18MP, but you only need 8MP for an 8 x 12 print which gives a lot of room to downsample. The sensors in the Rebel series also do not suffer from banding when lifting shadows (unlike some of the higher end models) and this remains true of the 650D which shows no evidence of banding or any pattern noise.

Out of camera JPEGs do not give anywhere near as good output as the camera is capable of shooting raw.

Have you noticed any difference in the non center af point?

Bp

 

[Timbukto]

Yes the improvements exist, but the truth is the t2i was being clearanced at Target (all out unless you live in the boonies) for $350. You have to admit that makes for the far better deal for a starter amateur who wants plenty of money left over for some higher-end lens!

 

[R N]

Thanks for posting.

I guess the bottom line is that the T4i has some very nice improvements (af, touchsreen, burst rate, video af) but does nothing to address sensor improvement as far as image quality goes.

A rumor over at CR a while back was for the 70D to have an all-new 22MP sensor. The 70D will likely kit with the new 18-135 STM, include touchscreen, and have AF at least as good as the t4i. With the new 22 MP sensor it will at least have somewhat better resolution, hopefully improved DR and high-ISO perfromance, and will likely support liveview and video af with PDAF more effectively because the sensor will be designed from the ground up with PDAF support in mind. It will have the usual 60D differentiators such as pentaprism, etc. It would be nice if they brought back micro-adjustment to the xxD level as well.

So imho the 70D -- due out around the end of August -- will likely pick up all the new goodies from the T4i and have the XXD features, and feature (at last!) a new sensor.

Personally, I'm interested in the T4i -- that old 18MP sensor ain't so bad after all -- but I may decide to hold out a bit longer...decisions, decisions...
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[EDWARD ARTISTE]

i wish i found that deal. just picked up a used for 435, and a new one for 550, the current average going rate. bringing the new one back to the shop.

Yes the improvements exist, but the truth is the t2i was being clearanced at Target (all out unless you live in the boonies) for $350. You have to admit that makes for the far better deal for a starter amateur who wants plenty of money left over for some higher-end lens!

--
'Only the dead have seen the end of war'

 

[EDWARD ARTISTE]

the 7d mk II and the 70d are absolutely critical that they be done right. Canon's feature differentiators are in a crazy state right now- mostly their own fault for not pushing things forward for 2 years now. Even with the t3i's features, much less the t4i, the t2i is still a damn good lil body.

Even the 5d MII being 500 more than the d800, is still a bit nuts...not offensive, ,but still nuts.

--
'Only the dead have seen the end of war'

 

[soupnazi81]

Are you able to change the "max iso" for auto iso? I'd like to set it to max out at 3200 instead of 6400 on auto iso.

 

[Flying Fish]

The 70D needs better AF than the T4i. I think the only current APS-C Canon camera with better AF than the T4i is the aging 7D.

(You wrote "and have AF at least as good as the t4i.")

FF

 

[R N]

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[Timbukto]

• the big improvement is in the liveview AF which uses the sensor's new built in PDAF to get you into the 'zone' with CDAF fine-tuning it to give you much faster and accurate liveview focus. It is extremely fast. (The CDAF portion is also probably helped by the DIGIC 5)

How fast? Anyway it'd be cool if you can get a youtube video out with your cameraphone or t2i of the liveview using its hybrid AF on the 17-55 2.8. This is an interesting test as the 17-55 2.8 is top notch in RUSM speed and its non-STM.

Also are you well acquainted with focus speeds on Nikon 1, or recent Oly or Panasonic live-view AF? It's all relative...maybe its blazing fast compared to old Canon CDAF (i.e. t2i), but how is it compared to recent MFT's or mirrorless?

 

[inasir1971]

Auto ISO: the auto ISO function is the same as the 550D - it is settable in 1 stop increments to a max of 6400.

STM lenses are designed for video. There the priority is for smooth changes, and you want to avoid the 'hunting' behavior. Stepper motors take commands to turn x steps in either direction - you know exactly how much they will turn. They are not nearly as fast as the better USM lenses by my understanding.

The focusing in normal AF with the 17-55 is almost instantaneous - you half-press the shutter and it's already in focus. When using liveview AF - it gets into the ballpark instantaneously using the hybrid PDAF, it then seems to switch into CDAF focusing where it makes a series of small adjustments (which are audible) just like liveview AF on previous bodies.

The 17-55 2.8 IS USM is imo one of the best general purpose lenses ever made, by anyone. It is a very fast constant f2.8 lens, has a 3 stop IS, and uses very high quality optics. The only thing separating it from an 'L' lens is that it is an EF-S (not full frame EF) lens and it isn't weather sealed. Canon and Nikon to date have not even announced a full frame f2.8 IS standard zoom.

I am comparing the liveview AF speed to other Canons and Nikon DSLR's, compared to which it is very fast. As far as hybrid AF's go the Nikon 1 is probably better since it was designed from the ground up to have a 39 point hybrid AF with tracking etc. but it is also a much smaller sensor and wouldn't be able to hold up in low light. Sony's solution is the translucent mirror which loses you one stop of light.

How fast - it's hard timing this kind of thing but I'm coming up with somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds.

 

[roger55]

Thanks for that explanation. Glad to see that liveview is nearly twice as fast with the t4i as it is with the T3i (3 to 4 seconds). I guess it is conceivable that the STM lenses could be faster to focus in liveview than a USM lens is.

I've asked the question in threads where people had have the 40 mm STM lens about liveview focus speed but have yet to get a reply on that.

But, according to Imaging Resouce, the focus speed on the 18-135 STM will be faster and smoother than that of the 40 mm STM.

 

[inasir1971]

Just to clarify - my liveview focus speed estimate is for the 17-55 2.8 IS USM not the 40mm STM lens.

Roger Ciccala of LensRentals took a look at the 40mm STM. Here is the link to that:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/06/canon-40mm-pancake-how-did-they-do-that

What I was trying to say is I think the STM lenses are designed for smoother and quieter AF for video - the better USM lenses will be much faster for AF.

Thanks for that explanation. Glad to see that liveview is nearly twice as fast with the t4i as it is with the T3i (3 to 4 seconds). I guess it is conceivable that the STM lenses could be faster to focus in liveview than a USM lens is.

I've asked the question in threads where people had have the 40 mm STM lens about liveview focus speed but have yet to get a reply on that.

But, according to Imaging Resouce, the focus speed on the 18-135 STM will be faster and smoother than that of the 40 mm STM.

 

[roger55]

What I was trying to say is I think the STM lenses are designed for smoother and quieter AF for video - the better USM lenses will be much faster for AF.

Certainly for AF with liveview off but I'm thinking STM could be faster than USM when focusing in liveview.

I have not seen where anyone has tested this with the 40mm STM. I will want to see focus times in liveview with that lens as well as when the 18-135 STM comes available.

 

[xlotus]

How could the sensor be the same????

Let me quote Canon press release here:

"The EOS 650D is the first-ever EOS to feature a dual AF system, which ensures exceptional detail in stills and continuous autofocus tracking when shooting movies. At the camera's heart is an 18 megapixel (MP) Hybrid CMOS sensor ..."

Previous Canon DSLRs don't have Hybrid CMOS sensor which is responsible for the dual AF system.

You probably have shot hundred thousands of images but your post title is wrong and it is contradictory to your own other statement I quoted below.

What do people expect when Canon have 18 megapixel sensors on several cameras in term of image quality?

I am sure there is no significant difference in IQ between 7D, 60D, 650D etc which shares the same number of sensor resolution.

What distinguish between these fine cameras are not the IQ due to the 18mpix sensor each uses, but all the bells and whistles each model has.

To me, the useful part of your post is the part where you mentioned how quick the Live View AF on 650D compared to the earlier generation.

If Canon LV AF has improved much that it is closer to or comparable with other MILCs which rely solely on CDAF, then 650D (and Canon upcoming MILC) is definitely a buy for me.

Canon have not used a new sensor. It appears to be the same as in the 550D, 600D, and 60D. I have owned and shot extensively with both the 60D and the 7D as well - though not the 600D.

You cannot tell the results of either camera apart.

How does the 650D differ from the 550D?

• the big improvement is in the liveview AF which uses the sensor's new built in PDAF to get you into the 'zone' with CDAF fine-tuning it to give you much faster and accurate liveview focus. It is extremely fast. (The CDAF portion is also probably helped by the DIGIC 5)

The hybrid live-view AF however is ground breaking. Liveview AF has suddenly become much more usable. (for static subjects)

Out of the 550D, 600D, 60D and 650D - the new hybrid AF makes the 650D my choice. I prefer it over the 60D which apart from a slightly higher frame rate/burst has little else going for it over this. (Canon dropped the pro features that the 50D had like AF micro-adjust, N3 terminal etc.)

 

[AmateurSnaps]

How could the sensor be the same????

Let me quote Canon press release here:

"The EOS 650D is the first-ever EOS to feature a dual AF system, which ensures exceptional detail in stills and continuous autofocus tracking when shooting movies. At the camera's heart is an 18 megapixel (MP) Hybrid CMOS sensor ..."

Previous Canon DSLRs don't have Hybrid CMOS sensor which is responsible for the dual AF system.

It is the same sensor with the 'hybrid' part tacked on. We will hopefully see a new sensor in the 70D (which I personally hope will be an amalgamation of the 60D and the 7D)

 

[inasir1971]

If you would like, it is a modified version of the same sensor - with some pixels serving the role of the PDAF function. The question that a lot of people have is has there been any improvement in the Canon 18MP APS-C sensor.

It made its debut in the EOS 7D in a variant with dual readout channels in 2009, followed by the variant used in the 550D, 60D, and 600D. The 650D just uses another variant of the same sensor now with the modifications to allow for PDAF in live view.

This is an important question because if you are shooting RAW you would have been getting the same output from any of these sensors - you don't see any difference in image quality between a 550D and a 650D.

Let me quote Canon press release here:

"The EOS 650D is the first-ever EOS to feature a dual AF system, which ensures exceptional detail in stills and continuous autofocus tracking when shooting movies. At the camera's heart is an 18 megapixel (MP) Hybrid CMOS sensor ..."

Previous Canon DSLRs don't have Hybrid CMOS sensor which is responsible for the dual AF system.

You probably have shot hundred thousands of images but your post title is wrong and it is contradictory to your own other statement I quoted below.

What do people expect when Canon have 18 megapixel sensors on several cameras in term of image quality?

I am sure there is no significant difference in IQ between 7D, 60D, 650D etc which shares the same number of sensor resolution.

What distinguish between these fine cameras are not the IQ due to the 18mpix sensor each uses, but all the bells and whistles each model has.

To me, the useful part of your post is the part where you mentioned how quick the Live View AF on 650D compared to the earlier generation.

If Canon LV AF has improved much that it is closer to or comparable with other MILCs which rely solely on CDAF, then 650D (and Canon upcoming MILC) is definitely a buy for me.

Canon have not used a new sensor. It appears to be the same as in the 550D, 600D, and 60D. I have owned and shot extensively with both the 60D and the 7D as well - though not the 600D.

You cannot tell the results of either camera apart.

How does the 650D differ from the 550D?

• the big improvement is in the liveview AF which uses the sensor's new built in PDAF to get you into the 'zone' with CDAF fine-tuning it to give you much faster and accurate liveview focus. It is extremely fast. (The CDAF portion is also probably helped by the DIGIC 5)

The hybrid live-view AF however is ground breaking. Liveview AF has suddenly become much more usable. (for static subjects)

Out of the 550D, 600D, 60D and 650D - the new hybrid AF makes the 650D my choice. I prefer it over the 60D which apart from a slightly higher frame rate/burst has little else going for it over this. (Canon dropped the pro features that the 50D had like AF micro-adjust, N3 terminal etc.)