5 mp CCD wrong? (long)

Hi SFJP,

In the first reply I tried to be nice and have some understanding, but now have to write:

you are a fool, just a fool and nothing more or less.

Just go to you bank, give them 2 USD and asked, no demand you are going to get 1,000,000 bucks as they have to use a SuperCCD.

jacques
 
Eh! Jacques,

Cool down! You're in computer industry like me and you should know that the amount of real nformation is not proportional to the amount of bits that may be used to store it but to the minimal amount of necessary bits that should be used exploiting, which exploiting some pattern regularity in information can be quite lower than expected in many cases. To take an example, If we'd follow your reasoning (?), a 1:8 jpeg compression should give 8 times less information and resolution than an original uncompressed image, which is quite not the case usually. So, what's wrong in supposing that the honeycomb pattern of physical pixels used by Sony superCCD can, in most cases, allow to infer correctly an image with significantly more horiaontal rows of pixels? In fact, the superCCD may be viewed in this perspective as a kind of natural hardware compression device that can store more information on 3 mega physical pixels, because of their geometric arrangement, than others using simply horzontal rows of physical pixels. This can be true or false, but there would be nothing shocking in this. My experience with the Fuji 6900 is that in many cases of pictures this is true to a certain extent, and the pictures extracted from the 3.3 mp superCCD can motr than often (but not always) bear the same amount of details and resolution that those coming from a 4-5 mp, sometimes 6 mp, conventional CCD. Who's the fool?? I guess by your first name you may be French like me, so in this case clear we are two fools!!

Take for instance the picture examples of the blue little boat in dry dock that Phil took with the Fuji 6900, the Nikon D1x and the Kodak DCS 760 with apparently similar light conditions: download them in full 6 mp size, forget from which camera they respectively come and tell me if you can see a great difference between them in term of resolution and overall quality...

Jean-Paul
http://www.pbase.com/sfjp
Hi SFJP,

In the first reply I tried to be nice and have some understanding,
but now have to write:

you are a fool, just a fool and nothing more or less.

Just go to you bank, give them 2 USD and asked, no demand you are
going to get 1,000,000 bucks as they have to use a SuperCCD.

jacques
 
Hi JP,

Sorry O called you a fool, an unesessary flame.

Compressing a list of DATA making use of i.e. redundancy well yes that's possible and used in everydays life. (ZIP ARC etcetera)

Using JPEG compression isn't the same as in JPEG compression a bit or a lot of the avialable information is sacraficed to get a higher level of compression, so we some times will get JPEG artifacts.

What Fuji is doing is the opposite of compressing, they are decompressing, DATA that ain't compressed before, just by interpolation, so 'inventing' DATA which isn'r realy measured. And yes you may asume between to points you can interpolate a third one and you even can use different technicques for it, but it just will be interpolated DATA of which the value can have meaning or no meaning at all. Doing this kind of interpolation inside a camera is a pure waist of memory resources.

The way the pixels on the CCD are placed in a honeycombe pattern or in a rectangular pattern doesn't make any difference as you can do the interpolations in every direction you would like to do it. But it still will be interpolated DATA and not real measured values.

All these manufacturers do have their claimes, claimes we should handlle with care. Sony F505V a 3.3 Mpixel camera with 10x ZOOM, well it ain't a ful lay, but it ain't claims with real value too. The F505V only can use some 2.6Mpixel on the CCD, and it only has a 5X optical zoom. Using 2X digital zoom in the camera is of the same uselessness as what Fuji is doing by expanding, by interpolation of the 2.6Mpixel to 5.2Mpixel.

Both companies just tell 'better' than reality figures and specs about their products.

Did I enjoy using the F505V despite of the Sony disinformation, yes I did, but I didn't liked the camera because Sony tiold me it had the specs as advertised on the box and the stickers.

Do you enjoy your Finepix 5900, well I do hope you do, but do you like it, because you have been misled by Fuji, well I hope that ain't so, but you like it for what you can do with it.

In your case I would use the 6900 in it's real native mode and do all extrapolation afterwards, which gives you almost twice the numebr of photographs on your memeory.

jacques

Sorry for typo's, misspelled words, crazy constructions in the sentences, as English isn't my native language, I just try to use it to comminicate.
--jacques
 
Jackues, i think you are wrong here.

Take for example any normal ccd. Each pixel is a light sensitive device, responding only to amount of light, not to the color. CCD's use filters over each pixel to get color info, but they can't get 3 filters over the same pixel, so color data in all your images is interpolated. The way the interpolation is done, and the physical layout of the filters has a lot to do with final "color resolution" of the output. If one uses GRGB filter pattern you would get one kind of results, but if you use CMY filters (as some proffesional kodaks did IIRC) you will get different output. This is very similar to SuperCCD vs regular CCD.

Also, getting the "native" resolution pic from camera and interpolating it to 6mp would not give you the same result, as the 3mp is downsampled 6mp image inside fuji. The 6mp format is actually native to finepix cameras AFAIK.

One other important thing with SuperCCD is the pixel size. Get a resolution chart shot with canon g2 and with eos1d. By your theory, you should see a resolution difference of 4/4.5, the same as the number of megapixels in each camera, but i bet you would find that the difference is much more than that, probably 4/5, 4/5.5. The reason would be the larger ccd in eos1d. Now, since honeycomb layout allows for bigger pixel sizes, this definitely gives you a resolution advantage.

Check the resolution charts for Fuji S1 and for EOSD30 and other cameras:

Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a

Fuji may be lying to me, but Phil definitely thinks that he sees better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.

Rgrds,
Moshe
Hi JP,

Sorry O called you a fool, an unesessary flame.

Compressing a list of DATA making use of i.e. redundancy well yes
that's possible and used in everydays life. (ZIP ARC etcetera)

Using JPEG compression isn't the same as in JPEG compression a bit
or a lot of the avialable information is sacraficed to get a higher
level of compression, so we some times will get JPEG artifacts.

What Fuji is doing is the opposite of compressing, they are
decompressing, DATA that ain't compressed before, just by
interpolation, so 'inventing' DATA which isn'r realy measured. And
yes you may asume between to points you can interpolate a third one
and you even can use different technicques for it, but it just will
be interpolated DATA of which the value can have meaning or no
meaning at all. Doing this kind of interpolation inside a camera is
a pure waist of memory resources.

The way the pixels on the CCD are placed in a honeycombe pattern or
in a rectangular pattern doesn't make any difference as you can do
the interpolations in every direction you would like to do it. But
it still will be interpolated DATA and not real measured values.

All these manufacturers do have their claimes, claimes we should
handlle with care. Sony F505V a 3.3 Mpixel camera with 10x ZOOM,
well it ain't a ful lay, but it ain't claims with real value too.
The F505V only can use some 2.6Mpixel on the CCD, and it only has a
5X optical zoom. Using 2X digital zoom in the camera is of the same
uselessness as what Fuji is doing by expanding, by interpolation of
the 2.6Mpixel to 5.2Mpixel.

Both companies just tell 'better' than reality figures and specs
about their products.

Did I enjoy using the F505V despite of the Sony disinformation, yes
I did, but I didn't liked the camera because Sony tiold me it had
the specs as advertised on the box and the stickers.

Do you enjoy your Finepix 5900, well I do hope you do, but do you
like it, because you have been misled by Fuji, well I hope that
ain't so, but you like it for what you can do with it.

In your case I would use the 6900 in it's real native mode and do
all extrapolation afterwards, which gives you almost twice the
numebr of photographs on your memeory.

jacques

Sorry for typo's, misspelled words, crazy constructions in the
sentences, as English isn't my native language, I just try to use
it to comminicate.

--
jacques
 
One thing i forgot:

The above is the reason why i agree that 5mp in the same physical size as we have now is wrong.

I am sure that if you cram 16mp in the same size of sensor, you would get only marginal resolution increase. In fact, i am very sure you would not get more than 1600 on phils chart from the same size ccd, even if you put 200 megapixels there, OTOH, if you put 200 megapixels on A4(LETTER) sized sensor, you will get many times the resolution you have today.
 
Adding a couple of cameras to your chart........

Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.

You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
Eric,

I think this is simple while people keep comparing the new 4-5 mp
CCD cameras with the FuJI 3.3 mp superCCD cameras: whatever the
necessary improvements these cameras should have to become fully
satsifying, the image quality of the Fuji cameras, in term of
resolution/color/absenc of noise, remains just the best so far of
the less than 4,000$ cameras! And they go to the forums dedicated
to the manufacturers producing 4-5 mp CCD cameras (Minolta, Sony,
Canon, Nikon, etc), they see all these posts of disappointed
owners, then they go to our beloved Fuji forum, and they see there
all these posts of delighted owners that like so much taking and
showing pictures from their Fuji superCCD cameras (mainly owners of
4900/6900) that they all have public galleries now and that even
some are becoming professional while they were not before.... Do
you agree with my answers?

Jean-Paul
Jean-Paul,

Fuji has an excellent image, but to rate is as "best so far of the less than 4,000$ cameras" is just not accurate from any reviewer's perspective, or from any other than one's altered reality. Also, native resolution of the sensor can not be improved on by any interpolation scheme no matter how good or how sophisticated, because accurate detail not captured can never be created by firmware or software. Shots of resolution charts tell the story. Noise issues aside, comparing a 3.3 megapixel sensor with a 5 megapixel sensor no matter how much interpolation is involved just doesn't produce parity. Yes, there are problems with crowding more pixels on smaller sensors. Signal to noise ratios are compromised and chromatic aberrations frequently result. The same difficulty was seen when the 2.11 megapixel sensors became 3.34 megapixel sensors and Fuji has done well with their own technology. But your assumption of best under $4000 just doesn't hold up in the real world.

Lin -- http://204.42.233.244
 
Homer, that's what i was talking about. I never claimed that superCCD 6mp is a true 6mp, but rather that it is more than 3.3 mp,

and it's not getting something of nothing, it's getting more light per pixel, due to honeycomb pattern giving bigger pixels, getting horizontal/vertical resolution from(instead of) diagonal. BTW, d1x does a similar thing but not from diagonal, but rather from horizontal to vertical.

Although at first glance it does not make sense, if you think more about it it does:
My first thought when i saw superCCD, or the d1x trick was:

If i don't have the (for example) vertical resolution, how can i recreate it from horizontal, these are supposed to be two different things?

But thinking about it, when you print your picture on an inkjet, you get a great color resulution by sacrificing luminance resolution, we do it all the time; the printer prints at 2400dpi(canon s800) of luminance resoltion to get the effect of continuous tone. This is probably not very different from that.

And although sony's 707 vertical/horizontal resolution is quite an achievement (i missed it when i looked for an example), my point about bigger pixel size still stands: Fuji S1 is very near the resolution that a 5mp sony can produce, and sony has probably one of the best resolution results pulled from that 5mp sensor, Oly e-20, and minolta D-image7 which use the same sensor, pull resolution which is about equal S1's 3.3 mp:
Olympus e-20
Horiz LPH * 1350 1650
Vert LPH * 1300 1650
Diagonal LPH + 1000 -
Sony DSC-F707
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH + 1000 -
Minolta DiMAGE 7
Horiz LPH * 1300 1450
Vert LPH * 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900

To make things even more complex, S1 minimum iso is 320, and higher iso means lower resolution due to noise. Try shooting the chart with sony 707 at iso 400, and see what i mean. This means, that at equal iso, the question of whether 707 has better resolution than S1 is still an open one.

Rgrds,
Moshe
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
A proof (not very scientific):
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F707/F7LL4003.HTM - iso100
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F707/F7LL1003.HTM - iso400

You may see that on vertical resolution in the middle of chart (yes i know the distance is wrong, so the numbers are relative) on vertical resolution chart in iso100 the extinction starts only at 3.5, while on iso400 the extinction is at 3.

A vetical of 1300 at iso 400 would become (clearly not very scientific, but i don't have 707 and a chart) 1300 * 3 / 3.5 = 1114, lower than s1's 1200.
Although at first glance it does not make sense, if you think more
about it it does:
My first thought when i saw superCCD, or the d1x trick was:

If i don't have the (for example) vertical resolution, how can i
recreate it from horizontal, these are supposed to be two
different things?

But thinking about it, when you print your picture on an inkjet,
you get a great color resulution by sacrificing luminance
resolution, we do it all the time; the printer prints at
2400dpi(canon s800) of luminance resoltion to get the effect of
continuous tone. This is probably not very different from that.

And although sony's 707 vertical/horizontal resolution is quite an
achievement (i missed it when i looked for an example), my point
about bigger pixel size still stands: Fuji S1 is very near the
resolution that a 5mp sony can produce, and sony has probably one
of the best resolution results pulled from that 5mp sensor, Oly
e-20, and minolta D-image7 which use the same sensor, pull
resolution which is about equal S1's 3.3 mp:
Olympus e-20
Horiz LPH * 1350 1650
Vert LPH * 1300 1650
Diagonal LPH + 1000 -
Sony DSC-F707
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH + 1000 -
Minolta DiMAGE 7
Horiz LPH * 1300 1450
Vert LPH * 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900

To make things even more complex, S1 minimum iso is 320, and higher
iso means lower resolution due to noise. Try shooting the chart
with sony 707 at iso 400, and see what i mean. This means, that at
equal iso, the question of whether 707 has better resolution than
S1 is still an open one.

Rgrds,
Moshe
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
appologies, a typo :
should be
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F707/F7LL4003.HTM - iso400
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F707/F7LL1003.HTM - iso100
You may see that on vertical resolution in the middle of chart (yes
i know the distance is wrong, so the numbers are relative) on
vertical resolution chart in iso100 the extinction starts only at
3.5, while on iso400 the extinction is at 3.
A vetical of 1300 at iso 400 would become (clearly not very
scientific, but i don't have 707 and a chart) 1300 * 3 / 3.5 =
1114, lower than s1's 1200.
Although at first glance it does not make sense, if you think more
about it it does:
My first thought when i saw superCCD, or the d1x trick was:

If i don't have the (for example) vertical resolution, how can i
recreate it from horizontal, these are supposed to be two
different things?

But thinking about it, when you print your picture on an inkjet,
you get a great color resulution by sacrificing luminance
resolution, we do it all the time; the printer prints at
2400dpi(canon s800) of luminance resoltion to get the effect of
continuous tone. This is probably not very different from that.

And although sony's 707 vertical/horizontal resolution is quite an
achievement (i missed it when i looked for an example), my point
about bigger pixel size still stands: Fuji S1 is very near the
resolution that a 5mp sony can produce, and sony has probably one
of the best resolution results pulled from that 5mp sensor, Oly
e-20, and minolta D-image7 which use the same sensor, pull
resolution which is about equal S1's 3.3 mp:
Olympus e-20
Horiz LPH * 1350 1650
Vert LPH * 1300 1650
Diagonal LPH + 1000 -
Sony DSC-F707
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH + 1000 -
Minolta DiMAGE 7
Horiz LPH * 1300 1450
Vert LPH * 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900

To make things even more complex, S1 minimum iso is 320, and higher
iso means lower resolution due to noise. Try shooting the chart
with sony 707 at iso 400, and see what i mean. This means, that at
equal iso, the question of whether 707 has better resolution than
S1 is still an open one.

Rgrds,
Moshe
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
Hi Moshe,

The original poster claimed 5Mpixels camera sucks as Fuji saw the light and it's far better to have an interpolating 3 Mpixel camera using a 'SuperCCD'.

The resolution figures in Phils review, he did deminished once for the F707, as he rated it much higher in his original posting.

I'm not saying th eF707 is th efar better camera, well compared to any other i.e. the Finepix 5900.

It's just about the resolution as th eoriginal poster started his debate.

And ofcourse a 'rea' 5Mpixel camera isn't even a real 5Mpixel camera, as for to be a real 5Mpixel camera it ought to have tree CCD's for each color one. But the Fuji had to have tree CCD's for each color one to even have true 3.3 Mpixel color resolution.

Some one stated by giving th epixels a different shape, you could pack mor eon the same CCD. Well very special thought as you can put as many diamond shaped pixels as square shaped pixels with both the same area on a certain CCD.

You all may feel Fuji is telling the truth and nothing but the truth, but well the physical facts are telling a different story and that's all that count.

Now I'm going to make some decent shots, no I don't know if I'm going to use 2.6 or 5 Mpixels, as in my opinion it ain't a real point of interest.

As it ain't no point of interest what a digital camera costs (well what you have to pay for it), the costs don't have the slightest connection of being it the better or the worst camera.

jacques,

who wants his Kodak Click Clack back and a better eye to see and discover the real beauty of live.

--jacques
 
Jackues, i did not imply that fuji is a better camera, there are many things making a good camera other than resolution. I for one, would take low-res D1H over 5megapixel consumer anytime, if i had the money.

as for your statement that:
Some one stated by giving th epixels a different shape, you could
pack mor eon the same CCD. Well very special thought as you can put
as many diamond shaped pixels as square shaped pixels with both the
same area on a certain CCD.
The answer is no- you can't make square pixels same size as honeycomb shaped pixels, given the same surface and equal number of pixels. The reason for this is that CCDs have to save place for the wiring to the pixels. Octagonal shape uses more of the space while leaving enough space for wiring due to it's shape. Square pixels have to be smaller to let wiring go around them.

Rgrds,
Moshe

P.S., i think you misunderstood SFJP, i think his claim was not that fuji is the answer for all illnesses, but rather that the trend many manufacturers follow in consumer cameras with packing more pixels in the same space is wrong. Here i completely agree with him.
Hi Moshe,

The original poster claimed 5Mpixels camera sucks as Fuji saw the
light and it's far better to have an interpolating 3 Mpixel camera
using a 'SuperCCD'.

The resolution figures in Phils review, he did deminished once for
the F707, as he rated it much higher in his original posting.

I'm not saying th eF707 is th efar better camera, well compared to
any other i.e. the Finepix 5900.

It's just about the resolution as th eoriginal poster started his
debate.

And ofcourse a 'rea' 5Mpixel camera isn't even a real 5Mpixel
camera, as for to be a real 5Mpixel camera it ought to have tree
CCD's for each color one. But the Fuji had to have tree CCD's for
each color one to even have true 3.3 Mpixel color resolution.

Some one stated by giving th epixels a different shape, you could
pack mor eon the same CCD. Well very special thought as you can put
as many diamond shaped pixels as square shaped pixels with both the
same area on a certain CCD.

You all may feel Fuji is telling the truth and nothing but the
truth, but well the physical facts are telling a different story
and that's all that count.

Now I'm going to make some decent shots, no I don't know if I'm
going to use 2.6 or 5 Mpixels, as in my opinion it ain't a real
point of interest.

As it ain't no point of interest what a digital camera costs (well
what you have to pay for it), the costs don't have the slightest
connection of being it the better or the worst camera.

jacques,

who wants his Kodak Click Clack back and a better eye to see and
discover the real beauty of live.

--
jacques
 
Go to your basic school and ask for all the money your parents paid.

jacques

--jacques
 
What?

Jacques, what exactly provoked such response. I don't know you, but i assumed i am talking to morally balanced human being. Your responses seem to contradict that assumption.

BTW, my parents did not pay for my basic school. This was a long time ( 20 years) ago, and in a country where basic school was free at the time.
Go to your basic school and ask for all the money your parents paid.

jacques

--
jacques
 
These comments were taken from imaging resources (www.imaging-resources.com) from their tests with resolution chart. They somewhat disagree with Phil's results, placing the Fuji 6900 just on-par with the 707, and far before the other prosumer cameras. The discrepancy with Phil is not a surprise because the objective evaluation of resolution is far from being obvious. I am sometimes in disagreement with Phil's resolution results when looking to the pictures for which he infers these results (idem for results given by imaging resources). Note that I do not say that I "believe" more Imaging resources than Phil, it is just to relativize this kind of measurements.

imaging resources on 6900:

"we found "strong detail" out to at least 1,300 lines. "Extinction" of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,600 lines. Strong detail to 1300 lines is quite good for a camera with a 3 megapixel sensor, and we found that the SuperCCD interpolation did indeed produce additional picture information in the 6 megapixel files that wasn't evident in the 3 megapixel uninterpolated ones."

(NB: here imaging resource insit that 6mp pictures from the 6900 are interpolated ones, which technically is not correct)

imaging resources on Sony 707

"We found "strong detail" out to at least1,200 lines. "Extinction" of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,650 lines. Wow, that's resolution!"

imaging resources on Canon G2

"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,100 lines. "Extinction" of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,300 lines".

imaging resources on D7

"Very strong detail is visible all the way out to 1200 lines though, and "extinction" (an unscientific, but useful measure of resolution) doesn't occur until about 1500 lines. Overall, very impressive."

Olympus 4040

"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,200 lines. "Extinction" of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,500 lines. We also shot at the interpolated 2,816 x 2,112- (3673 k) and 3,200 x 2,400-pixel (4421 k) resolutions, noticing slightly softer details and no real improvement in resolution (At least, in Our Humble Opinion.)"

Sony DSC 85

"Strong detail was clearly visible to 1100 lines though, and "extinction" didn't occur until somewhere around 1500 lines. The image is also razor-sharp all the way out to the corners. Overall an excellent performance!"

Nikon D1x

"We called its vertical resolution as 610 lines per picture height with no artifacts, 1100 lines with "strong detail", and 1230 lines at extinction.

Horizontally, the D1X showed dramatically higher resolution than any camera we've yet tested. (June, 2001) It resolved 750 lines with no artifacts, 1270 lines with "strong detail", and 1600 lines at extinction".
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
You see, that high resolution is the reason why you are singled out with your 6900 in a public park and not allowed to take pictures, you might interpolate some strategic flower that was not there.

:-)

Rgrds,
Moshe
imaging resources on 6900:
"we found "strong detail" out to at least 1,300 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,600 lines. Strong
detail to 1300 lines is quite good for a camera with a 3 megapixel
sensor, and we found that the SuperCCD interpolation did indeed
produce additional picture information in the 6 megapixel files
that wasn't evident in the 3 megapixel uninterpolated ones."

(NB: here imaging resource insit that 6mp pictures from the 6900
are interpolated ones, which technically is not correct)

imaging resources on Sony 707
"We found "strong detail" out to at least1,200 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,650 lines. Wow,
that's resolution!"

imaging resources on Canon G2
"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,100 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,300 lines".

imaging resources on D7
"Very strong detail is visible all the way out to 1200 lines
though, and "extinction" (an unscientific, but useful measure of
resolution) doesn't occur until about 1500 lines. Overall, very
impressive."

Olympus 4040
"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,200 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,500 lines. We
also shot at the interpolated 2,816 x 2,112- (3673 k) and 3,200 x
2,400-pixel (4421 k) resolutions, noticing slightly softer details
and no real improvement in resolution (At least, in Our Humble
Opinion.)"

Sony DSC 85
"Strong detail was clearly visible to 1100 lines though, and
"extinction" didn't occur until somewhere around 1500 lines. The
image is also razor-sharp all the way out to the corners. Overall
an excellent performance!"

Nikon D1x
"We called its vertical resolution as 610 lines per picture height
with no artifacts, 1100 lines with "strong detail", and 1230 lines
at extinction.
Horizontally, the D1X showed dramatically higher resolution than
any camera we've yet tested. (June, 2001) It resolved 750 lines
with no artifacts, 1270 lines with "strong detail", and 1600 lines
at extinction".
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
LOL!! This one is good!And what you don't know is that from my appartment dominating from 400 meters San Francisco from the east slope of Twin Peaks I can see most parts of SF and with the combination Fuji 6900 + tele converter lens, I can take very detailed spy shots of all the strategic points... No need to go outdoor in a public park..-:)
:-)

Rgrds,
Moshe
imaging resources on 6900:
"we found "strong detail" out to at least 1,300 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,600 lines. Strong
detail to 1300 lines is quite good for a camera with a 3 megapixel
sensor, and we found that the SuperCCD interpolation did indeed
produce additional picture information in the 6 megapixel files
that wasn't evident in the 3 megapixel uninterpolated ones."

(NB: here imaging resource insit that 6mp pictures from the 6900
are interpolated ones, which technically is not correct)

imaging resources on Sony 707
"We found "strong detail" out to at least1,200 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,650 lines. Wow,
that's resolution!"

imaging resources on Canon G2
"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,100 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,300 lines".

imaging resources on D7
"Very strong detail is visible all the way out to 1200 lines
though, and "extinction" (an unscientific, but useful measure of
resolution) doesn't occur until about 1500 lines. Overall, very
impressive."

Olympus 4040
"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,200 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,500 lines. We
also shot at the interpolated 2,816 x 2,112- (3673 k) and 3,200 x
2,400-pixel (4421 k) resolutions, noticing slightly softer details
and no real improvement in resolution (At least, in Our Humble
Opinion.)"

Sony DSC 85
"Strong detail was clearly visible to 1100 lines though, and
"extinction" didn't occur until somewhere around 1500 lines. The
image is also razor-sharp all the way out to the corners. Overall
an excellent performance!"

Nikon D1x
"We called its vertical resolution as 610 lines per picture height
with no artifacts, 1100 lines with "strong detail", and 1230 lines
at extinction.
Horizontally, the D1X showed dramatically higher resolution than
any camera we've yet tested. (June, 2001) It resolved 750 lines
with no artifacts, 1270 lines with "strong detail", and 1600 lines
at extinction".
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
Eh! Jacques,

I did not say the 6900 always provide you with what you could get from a 6 mp CCD. I just said that in the average the 6900 provides pictures that are close to 5 mp CCD cameras in resolution, say around 4.5 mp, sometimes less sometimes more (and yes I have some shots a D1X could not have had more detailed at full 6 mp!).

And what I said is that the superCCD allows to increase resolution, in a variable way according to the nature of the light and the details of the subject, without increasing the noise, which in the contrary is the recurrent problem with the raise of mp count with the small size CCDs.

Otherwise, I agree with you, the artistic or affective value of a picture is much more in the photographer than in the camera and I have a friend who takes incredible good pictures with a Kodack 30$ camera when his Nikon is not available. However, when he can, he prefer to use his Nikon, this allows him to get clean large prints of his pictures, not to enhance their artistic quality of course. If you are a good race driver not respectful of the speed limitations, you can have a lot of fun with a small unexpensive car and beat most average drivers, however you would'nt prefer such a car to a Ferrari, would you?

Jean-Paul
Hi Moshe,

The original poster claimed 5Mpixels camera sucks as Fuji saw the
light and it's far better to have an interpolating 3 Mpixel camera
using a 'SuperCCD'.

The resolution figures in Phils review, he did deminished once for
the F707, as he rated it much higher in his original posting.

I'm not saying th eF707 is th efar better camera, well compared to
any other i.e. the Finepix 5900.

It's just about the resolution as th eoriginal poster started his
debate.

And ofcourse a 'rea' 5Mpixel camera isn't even a real 5Mpixel
camera, as for to be a real 5Mpixel camera it ought to have tree
CCD's for each color one. But the Fuji had to have tree CCD's for
each color one to even have true 3.3 Mpixel color resolution.

Some one stated by giving th epixels a different shape, you could
pack mor eon the same CCD. Well very special thought as you can put
as many diamond shaped pixels as square shaped pixels with both the
same area on a certain CCD.

You all may feel Fuji is telling the truth and nothing but the
truth, but well the physical facts are telling a different story
and that's all that count.

Now I'm going to make some decent shots, no I don't know if I'm
going to use 2.6 or 5 Mpixels, as in my opinion it ain't a real
point of interest.

As it ain't no point of interest what a digital camera costs (well
what you have to pay for it), the costs don't have the slightest
connection of being it the better or the worst camera.

jacques,

who wants his Kodak Click Clack back and a better eye to see and
discover the real beauty of live.

--
jacques
 
These comments were taken from imaging resources
If your budget is less

than a thousand dollars, and you need maximum resolution and detail, the F707 is the camera to get.
(www.imaging-resources.com) from their tests with resolution chart.
They somewhat disagree with Phil's results, placing the Fuji 6900
just on-par with the 707, and far before the other prosumer
cameras. The discrepancy with Phil is not a surprise because the
objective evaluation of resolution is far from being obvious. I am
sometimes in disagreement with Phil's resolution results when
looking to the pictures for which he infers these results (idem for
results given by imaging resources). Note that I do not say that I
"believe" more Imaging resources than Phil, it is just to
relativize this kind of measurements.

imaging resources on 6900:
"we found "strong detail" out to at least 1,300 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,600 lines. Strong
detail to 1300 lines is quite good for a camera with a 3 megapixel
sensor, and we found that the SuperCCD interpolation did indeed
produce additional picture information in the 6 megapixel files
that wasn't evident in the 3 megapixel uninterpolated ones."

(NB: here imaging resource insit that 6mp pictures from the 6900
are interpolated ones, which technically is not correct)

imaging resources on Sony 707
"We found "strong detail" out to at least1,200 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,650 lines. Wow,
that's resolution!"

imaging resources on Canon G2
"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,100 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,300 lines".

imaging resources on D7
"Very strong detail is visible all the way out to 1200 lines
though, and "extinction" (an unscientific, but useful measure of
resolution) doesn't occur until about 1500 lines. Overall, very
impressive."

Olympus 4040
"We found "strong detail" out to at least 1,200 lines. "Extinction"
of the target patterns didn't occur until about 1,500 lines. We
also shot at the interpolated 2,816 x 2,112- (3673 k) and 3,200 x
2,400-pixel (4421 k) resolutions, noticing slightly softer details
and no real improvement in resolution (At least, in Our Humble
Opinion.)"

Sony DSC 85
"Strong detail was clearly visible to 1100 lines though, and
"extinction" didn't occur until somewhere around 1500 lines. The
image is also razor-sharp all the way out to the corners. Overall
an excellent performance!"

Nikon D1x
"We called its vertical resolution as 610 lines per picture height
with no artifacts, 1100 lines with "strong detail", and 1230 lines
at extinction.
Horizontally, the D1X showed dramatically higher resolution than
any camera we've yet tested. (June, 2001) It resolved 750 lines
with no artifacts, 1270 lines with "strong detail", and 1600 lines
at extinction".
Canon EOS-D30
Horiz LPH 1100 1350
Vert LPH 1150 1300
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Nikon D1
Horiz LPH 1100 1300
Vert LPH 1150 1250
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
FujiFilm Finepix S1 Pro
Horiz LPH 1300 1450
Vert LPH 1200 1400
Diagonal LPH * 1000 n/a
Nikon Coolpix 990
Horiz LPH 900 1300
Vert LPH 900 1400
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Fujifilm FinePix 6900Z
Horiz LPH 1150 1400
Vert LPH 1150 1450
Diagonal LPH 900 n/a
Sony DSC-S85
Horiz LPH 1200 1650
Vert LPH 1150 1650
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a
Sony DSC-F707 Hows this for Res?
Horiz LPH 1450 1800
Vert LPH 1300 1800
Diagonal LPH 1000 n/a

Seems like a 4MP Sony is sligtly better than the 6MP 6900z (or is
it 3.3?......which the resolution seems to suggest)

but Phil definitely thinks that he sees
better resolution from SuperCCD than from regular CCDs with same
resolution, especially in Vertical/Horizontal axis, which is known
to be more important to human eye as far as resolution counts.
Could be, but the lowly 5mp Sony just blows the 6mp Fuji away on
Phil's charts.

There is no question that Fujis algorythms are good. You really can
print a very large print from a Fuji 6MP file. But in terms of true
resolution......uh, uh.
I would say that Fuji has contibuted a bit.
You no longer can say "you can't get something for nothing". Now
you can. But can you get true 6 (or 5 ) MP resolution? Absolutely
not.
But I will note that it is "nearly" as good as the 4MP
Sony........Good job.

Homer
 
Buy a Canon G2 and live happy ;-)
Paulo Abreu
It seems the crop of new 5 mp digicams is far from receiving an
unanimous acclamation from its first users according to the posts
in the various forums of dpreview. The Minolta D7, the Sony 707 and
now the Olympus E20 seem to be far from meeting the expectations of
many of the people who bought them. And it seems also the new Nikon
5000 gives some trouble to Nikon who is chasing the sites
displaying preview samples taken with this camera to remove these
samples.

What's wrong? Beyond some drawbacks specific to each model of
camera body, such as D7 autofocus bad performances for instance,
the CCD itself (for now all these cameras share the same 5 mp CCD
produced by Sony) seems to be the main source of troubles: the D7
and E20 are said to have an excessive noise even at their lower ISO
100 or 80 setting, the 707 has artificial "electric colors" and
quite visible artifacts but much less noise. What's in common in
these troubles? in my view, I'd bet it is excessive noise from in
the initial pictures coming from the CCD! Yes, the Sony 707 has
much less noise than the two others, but only because it applies a
strong in-camera processing to remove it after the image is taken,
and this might well be the reason of the artifificial look of the
pictures it produces (artificial lines emphasizing border between
surfaces, artificial looking textures and diificulty to equilibrate
colors).

This kind of problem encountered by the new 5 mp consumer level CCD
was predicted more than one year ago by Fuji. Fuji argued that
2.5/3.3 mp was the maximum that can be reached from consumer level
CCD that have for now a very small surface. To go beyond would be
paid by an excessive amount of noise. And what happens today with
the dissatisfaction encountered by the new 5 mp consumer/prosumer
camera could just prove Fuji was right (while Sony 4 mp CCD seems
to raise a little less criticism, but it is right that 4 mp CCD was
expected to be just a transition and did not raise as much
expectations as did the 5 mp CCD that was presented as the future
stable standard for CCD resoution).

And if Fuji's prediction was right, for consumer level CCD with a
small surface, the superCCD approach promoted by Fuji can well be
the only one reasonable for a while, until CCD with larger area can
be produced at reasonable price (to fit with the less than 1,000$
category).

The Fuji 3.3 mp superCCD that can be found in the Finepix 6800 and
6900, produces natively 6 mp pictures that have a resolution on par
with Sony 5 mp CCD pictures (or at least very close), but Fuji
pictures are rather noise free at ISO 100 and with a very
acceptable level of noise (easily removed on computer, see
http://www.pbase.com/sfjp/neat_image_noise_removal_tests ) at ISO
200 (ISO 400 not so good, though). And the Fuji colors are just
perfect in daylight outdoor pictures. The main defect of the
pictures produced by these Fuji cameras comes from the in-camera
sharpening that creates visible artifacts at full 6 mp resolution:
easy to bypass by using the "soft" sharpening setting instead of
the "normal" one. A secondary defect is due to some difficulty to
masterize the right WB setting for indoor shots, while with some
effort it is possible to find the good solution in most cases (this
might rather be a defect of the current Fuji WB algorithm than of
the superCCD itself). For shots in dark night, the superCCD
exhibits also a significant number of hot pixels for exposures >
1sec., which makes it not very adapted to this kind of use,
although hot pixels can now be easily removed by post-processing
(or in-camera processing with the ad hoc algorithm not available
yet on Fuji cameras).

I think that most comparisons between top mega pixels cameras that
conclude to the triumph of the Sony 5mp CCD over the Fuji 3.3 mp
superCCD just got it wrong in practice. The 3.3 mp superCCD remains
in my opinion the best solution available today for small surface
CCD found in the consumer/prosumer price level and might remain for
long if the ratio price/surface of CCD does not fall significantly
in a short future.

So what? I believe that the Fuji 6800 and 6900 are incredibly
underevaluated by the expert reviewers while they provide, except
for night shots maybe, the best picture quality available today and
may be for a while in the less than 4,000$ camera category (while
the 6800 and 6900 are now sold around 500$ in the US!!). The 6800
and 6900 cameras themselves are not perfect and should be enhanced
in the short future, with a lens that would remain without
distortion in the corners, better night shot ability, a less brutal
in-camera sharpening algorithm, a better autofocus and, please mr.
Fuji, a better EVF on the 6900 successor. But I would be very sad
if for marketing reasons and to comply with the criticismes of the
expert reviewers Fuji would drop its superCCD, to follow the
majority and use instead the Sony noisy 5 mp CCD, except if Fuji
would introduce instead a large surface CCD of its own (or from
Philips?).

Jean-Paul
http://www.pbase.com/sfjp
--Paulo Abreu http://www.pbase.com/psergio/canon_g2
 

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