20D not better than a 10D???

[avanbeek]

After a year and a half with 2 10Ds I picked up a couple of 20Ds last week and have had some time to use them in a few different settings.

My first impression is that anyone who thinks that they are no different than a 10D has never owned or actually used both.

As an extreme use case I took my 20D with a 70-200IS 2.8 on a walk with some dogs and tried shooting in JPG (which I never usually do) and with AI Servo. 150 frames later with dogs moving at full speed and I had maybe 5 frames out of focus (my fault when taking the focussing square off of the subject). I was shooting at 5fps sometimes up to 20 frames and by the time I would look down at the camera it would already be finished writing (I actually thought it was broken). Finally, almost every shot was also at a perfect brightness level despite shooting dark dogs on white snow and the white balance was near perfect.

As a comparison, with my 10D in the same situation, about 120 of the 150 would be out of focus in the same shooting conditions, the images would all be at least 25% too dark, they would all have a blue cast from the snow, and I couldn't possibly take as many shots.
With all that in mind, do I really care if the shutter is loud?



--
Regards,
A

 

[Diane B]

After a year and a half with 2 10Ds I picked up a couple of 20Ds
last week and have had some time to use them in a few different
settings.

My first impression is that anyone who thinks that they are no
different than a 10D has never owned or actually used both.

but you really have mentioned why some aren't making the upgrade. The things where the 20D really really shines are those things that make no difference to some people because of their style of shooting and are willing to wait for larger differences in the areas where it does make a difference--or at least that's what I'm doing. I have shot with a 20D and know its a terrific camera and like it very much---but not enough for ME to make the jump--I'll wait yet another generation. I just have made the decision to not upgrade each generation unless there is a big difference for my needs--and we all know that doesn't happen generally from just a generation's jump. 18 -24 mos isn't too long for me to wait between, I've decided.

For your purposes---there is a big difference in what I've seen, read and tried myself.

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[avanbeek]

Hi Diane,

So if lower ISO noise, more resolution and all the things that I mentioned aren't enough, what more could you want? It has instant startup time. About the only other things I can think of would be less of a crop factor, better DR and even more resolution (which the huge majority will never need).

After a year and a half with 2 10Ds I picked up a couple of 20Ds
last week and have had some time to use them in a few different
settings.

My first impression is that anyone who thinks that they are no
different than a 10D has never owned or actually used both.

but you really have mentioned why some aren't making the upgrade.
The things where the 20D really really shines are those things that
make no difference to some people because of their style of
shooting and are willing to wait for larger differences in the
areas where it does make a difference--or at least that's what I'm
doing. I have shot with a 20D and know its a terrific camera and
like it very much---but not enough for ME to make the jump--I'll
wait yet another generation. I just have made the decision to not
upgrade each generation unless there is a big difference for my
needs--and we all know that doesn't happen generally from just a
generation's jump. 18 -24 mos isn't too long for me to wait
between, I've decided.

For your purposes---there is a big difference in what I've seen,
read and tried myself.

Diane
--
Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

--
Regards,
A

 

[Diane B]

Hi Diane,

So if lower ISO noise, more resolution and all the things that I
mentioned aren't enough, what more could you want? It has instant
startup time. About the only other things I can think of would be
less of a crop factor, better DR and even more resolution (which
the huge majority will never need).

For me, faster startup means nothing, the lower ISO noise does, but I'm using ISO800 regularly on 10D and can deal with it and don't really need 1600 except in very minor cases (and I do use a tripod often--and always for commercial work). I want/need more resolution since I make quite large prints and would like a smaller crop (but don't expect that in this series for a very long time). All the things that the 20D offers will be gratefully accepted in the next generation by me--but I don't really need them now--and even the somewhat better DR doesn't really make much difference since I always shoot in RAW and can make multiple conversions and blend. ETTLII will be another thing I will like---but get along fine now.

As I said--for my style its not really quite sufficient--and with 3 Canon digital bodies now, I have decided to just resist upgrading for things that don't affect me to a more than minor degree. If I was a sports, wildlife, wedding shooter or PJ--I would be first in line I expect--but I"m not and so its 'horses for courses' as the Brits say. The camera that would really be the one I want for my personal work (not commercial--what I have is terrific for work) is the 1Ds MkII or even the 1Ds, but I"m going to wait another year and make that kind of decision.

Diane B
black and white lover, but color is seducing me
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries

 

[Adam2]

After a year and a half with 2 10Ds I picked up a couple of 20Ds
last week and have had some time to use them in a few different
settings.

My first impression is that anyone who thinks that they are no
different than a 10D has never owned or actually used both.

Who sez that?

As an extreme use case I took my 20D with a 70-200IS 2.8 on a walk
with some dogs and tried shooting in JPG (which I never usually do)
and with AI Servo.

I don't consider this an extreme case, though continue with the hyperbole...

150 frames later with dogs moving at full speed
and I had maybe 5 frames out of focus (my fault when taking the
focussing square off of the subject). I was shooting at 5fps
sometimes up to 20 frames and by the time I would look down at the
camera it would already be finished writing (I actually thought it
was broken). Finally, almost every shot was also at a perfect
brightness level despite shooting dark dogs on white snow and the
white balance was near perfect.
As a comparison, with my 10D in the same situation, about 120 of
the 150 would be out of focus in the same shooting conditions, the
images would all be at least 25% too dark, they would all have a
blue cast from the snow, and I couldn't possibly take as many shots.
With all that in mind, do I really care if the shutter is loud?

Then I would suspect that your 10D's are defective. Having used the 10D extensively for indoor/outdoor sports including soccer, swimming, football, etc. I can attest that the focusing is reasonably good. On par with a Mark II? Of course not, but 80% of the shots would not be oof as you indicated - your cameras must be defective. As far as the WB, I'm glad that it has improved, but since I shoot in RAW, that's generally not problematic. With respect to the metering, until recently, neither of my 10D's had any problems including scenes as you described (one of my 10D's recently went on the fritz). The shutter noise is less of a factor for me.

The real question is whether the 20D represents a quantum leap over the 10D or is it merely and improvement. Having used the 20D, I think that it is the later. As such, it is difficult for many of us to rationalize the $700-800/camera outlay for relatively minor improvements. Now, if you're talking about the above improvements along with a full frame sensor and a variety of other features, well then perhaps, I'll agree.

Glad you like your 20D's but I don't think you need to be so antagonistic about it.

 

[Chris B.]

Diane -

Like you, I use my (2) 10Ds for commercial work and some personal work. 90% of the time on tripods at ISO 100 with strobes. I'm getting absolutely stunning 13 x 19s up to as high as 20 x24s. Could I have switched to the 20D? Certainly, but like you, my style of shooting doesn't require the superfast start-up and high frame rate. While I'd certainly love to get the 1D Mk II, I really can't justify the expense and, quite frankly, am getting high quality images from the 10D so I'll wait for the next generation of the 20D which should be along in a year or so.

Chris

 

[Cal Dawson]

two dud 10D's mine has no problem taking pictures of dog at full speed or anything else (70-200 IS) it's possible that canon has finally found a way to make up for the flaws of the user...Yes I have used both startup time and write time is better (doesn't matter to me) focus does not appear to be any better or faster(but I only have my 10D to compare too) I did notice the 20D pictures appear brighter but nothing that a little EC would not take care of...

Enjoy your new toys...to bad you didn't send your 10D's in for calibration and get them working right the first time...

Cal



--
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/

 

[Sis-Q]

be rest assured his assessment of the 10d's is not due to flaws of the user . . .
Cindy

two dud 10D's mine has no problem taking pictures of dog at full
speed or anything else (70-200 IS) it's possible that canon has
finally found a way to make up for the flaws of the user...Yes I
have used both startup time and write time is better (doesn't
matter to me) focus does not appear to be any better or faster(but
I only have my 10D to compare too) I did notice the 20D pictures
appear brighter but nothing that a little EC would not take care
of...

Enjoy your new toys...to bad you didn't send your 10D's in for
calibration and get them working right the first time...

Cal



--
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/

--
Formerly half of 1ofUs or 1ofUs!
The other half of 'Us' is now 'Lensbaby'

 

[DoctorG1]

I too found it far more responsive than my 10d and manage to capture the moment when I want to more often and with far more success. For that reason alone I thought the upgrade worth it. The 20D and my 70-200 2.8 seem to make a very good pair , a much more synergistic pairing then on my 10d

My 10d or lens wasnt broken or miscalibrated either as some here are suggesting could be the case for finding the 20D "better" I still have and use it.
--
Rodney Gold

The nicest thing about smacking your head against the the wall is.......The feeling you get when you stop

 

[Vernon D Rainwater]

two dud 10D's mine has no problem taking pictures of dog at full
speed or anything else (70-200 IS) it's possible that canon has
finally found a way to make up for the flaws of the user...Yes I
have used both startup time and write time is better (doesn't
matter to me) focus does not appear to be any better or faster(but
I only have my 10D to compare too) I did notice the 20D pictures
appear brighter but nothing that a little EC would not take care
of...

Enjoy your new toys...to bad you didn't send your 10D's in for
calibration and get them working right the first time...

Cal



--
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/

I have neither the 10d or the 20 d, however; from what I have observed in the various specifications, detailed reviews, user examples; there are MANY differences between the two models.

Whether a current user (owner) of the 10d considers it useful to change to the 20d is somewhat irrelevant as far as the differences -- instead, that is based on individual situations, needs, and desires.

However, (in my opinion) and I am considering another Digital Camera so that I (hopefully) will be able to keep up with the activities of my Grand Children (and Great Grand Children) that is NOT possible with my present 5mp Consumer Digital which provides excellent images and results but is "SNAIL slow as far as what is referred to as "Shutter Lag".

Even with Pre focus and all the other methods of allowing for the fastest capture of the "spontaneous" and instant moment and expression) I would much prefer a Digital that allows the image to be exposed (THE INSTANT) the shutter is pressed.

Yes, I know the 1D Mark II should be preferred for this described (need and/or desire), however; (at a very substantial cost penalty) as compared to the 20d. The 20d appears to be very responsive (fast) and to have MANY useful features as compared to the 10d -- even though the 10d WAS a great improvement (over those it superseded) at it's announced date.

Also, now regarding the 10d to be considered vs the 20d for what is my current (retirement) Photography interests, (since retirement, I am NO longer confronted with all the Professional requirements) -- so; I am of the opinion that the 20d would (with all the improved features) simply be a FAR BETTER camera than would the 10d for what I want (and/or need).

I am VERY familiar with the 10d and have used the 10d and worked with MANY of the images from an excellent 10d (and 3 of the better Canon Lens) and have seen the things that (in my opinion) would NOT be to my liking. One of which is the seemingly white balance differences that exists. Yes, I know and use RAW but the Characteristics of the Camera has it's differences. The speed of the 20d is exceeding faster. This of course is not necessary for selected uses (such as the special Photo Session with Grandma), however; the image quality, Mp, white balance, etc; is applicable for ALL image exposures.

The 6 vs 8Mp is also useful (even though down-played by some) when making larger Photos and especially when needing to crop the images. Depending on the size of the final Photo size, the problems of usually having to crop is NOT new -- instead, it has existed since the beginning of the first film cameras. I have used all of the formats from the small Minox, 1/2 35mm, 35mm, and through 4 x 5 inch (also a few 5 x 7 and 8 x 10 films) and usually there were ALWAYS the need for cropping --OR-- settle for a NON standard final Photo size.

Sorry for the length but decided to include my thoughts on this rather interesting subject.

--
Vernon...
http://www.pbase.com/vrain

 

[dnjake]

I too found it far more responsive than my 10d and manage to
capture the moment when I want to more often and with far more
success. For that reason alone I thought the upgrade worth it. The
20D and my 70-200 2.8 seem to make a very good pair , a much more
synergistic pairing then on my 10d
My 10d or lens wasnt broken or miscalibrated either as some here
are suggesting could be the case for finding the 20D "better" I
still have and use it.

I don't think that many will argue with the claim that the 20D has an improved AF over the 10D. The question is how much. I don't take many action pictures with my 10D. But most of those that I have taken have been in focus. So I too would think a frequency of 80% out of focus for a running dog in good light would be an indicator of a defective camera.

There actually have been a range of opinions reported about how effective the 20D AF is. There have been several posts from new owners who have been disappointed with the improvement. The lens could easily be a big part of the reason for the difference in the reactions. Apparently a fast lens is needed to take advantage of the new high precision AF capability. So the upgrade may well be more significant for heavy users of this lens.
--
David Jacobson

 

[Clifton Painter]

two dud 10D's mine has no problem taking pictures of dog at full
speed or anything else (70-200 IS) it's possible that canon has
finally found a way to make up for the flaws of the user...Yes I
have used both startup time and write time is better (doesn't
matter to me) focus does not appear to be any better or faster(but
I only have my 10D to compare too) I did notice the 20D pictures
appear brighter but nothing that a little EC would not take care
of...

Enjoy your new toys...to bad you didn't send your 10D's in for
calibration and get them working right the first time...

Cal

I've been shooting a D30 since 2000 (cost $3000.00 back then) and when the 10D came out I decided to upgrade. I bought one, went out with it, shot, came home disgusted with the rediculously slow performance, boxed it up and took it back. I kept on shooting with my D30. Recently I decided that I'd either get a D70 ( I have pro lenses in both brands) or a 20D, but wasn't sure which I would prefer ( I always leaned a bit toward Nikon in film bodies). I figured that I'd go down to a local camera store and try them both to see if that helped with my conundrum. It took only a couple of minutes to get very excited by the 20D. I am now awaiting the arrival of my new 20D.

I love the 20D's feel (better than the 10D, even more solid with a great rubber skin) and the buttons have been improved in my opinion (too many gets cluttered). The joystick is great, the buffer activity light's new position is fantastic (and far too long in the waiting).

All I can say is I'm extrememly excited by the 20D. It's the digital camera I've been waiting for.

My style does require the speed it affords, and my budget appreciates the affordability.

The 10D makes great pictures, but is a snail.

I'm sure many of you could imagine what an upgrade it is to go from the D30 to the 20D.

Now those of you who don't require the speed, and already happily own a 10D, probably feel as I did that I couldn't see upgrading to a d60 or 10d, and that's understandable.

But make no mistake, the 20D is a giant leap forward for some of us, and a significant leap forward for others.

My opinion only. Please do not take offense, because none is intended.

C. Painter

 

[maxwebster]

 

[Vernon D Rainwater]

* http://www.pbase.com/maxwebster/image/38425493/original.jpg*

What is that on the pretty Dog's right front leg ?
--
Vernon...
http://www.pbase.com/vrain

 

[maxwebster]

which we may have removed

thanks for noticing )

 

[Wild-Mike]

Enjoy your new toys...to bad you didn't send your 10D's in for
calibration and get them working right the first time...

Or too bad you didn't send in the 20D (just messing with you).

Regards,
Mike

 

[avanbeek]

Glad you like your 20D's but I don't think you need to be so
antagonistic about it.

If that was antagonistic then I have no idea what wouldn't be. I'm not one to take offense by someone liking a camera more than the one I own so my apologies for not being able to relate to your sensitivity.

--
Regards,
A

 

[Cdn Goose]

I shoot with a 10D and I love it. Its plenty fast for me coming a Minolta Dimage A2. Im not a pro just a enthusiast. In time I will upgrade to a 20D.

I have some good Canon and Sigma glass in my system. I have shot with a 20D, D70, Drebel and Pentax *istDS, all excellent btw, but Im not sure why some people say the 10D is a snail? Yes compared to the 20D but to others its not a snail. All camera have pros and cons. I have never had AF, backfocus or any other QC issues with the 10D and it gives me immense shooting pleasure since I only take one photo at a time. I could have bought a 20D now but I chose to pay $1000 for a 6 month old 10D and spend the rest on my system. This decision seemed like a good one. I have no desire to upgrade the body but in time I will.

Im not sure why the big huff over the improvements or why this dumb 20d vs 10d string was even started. I think its an insecurty issue with measurbators or something.

I would hope the 20D is a big improvment over my 10D but its like the car world comparing the new and improved model over the previous model. Big deal !

After a year and a half with 2 10Ds I picked up a couple of 20Ds
last week and have had some time to use them in a few different
settings.

My first impression is that anyone who thinks that they are no
different than a 10D has never owned or actually used both.

As an extreme use case I took my 20D with a 70-200IS 2.8 on a walk
with some dogs and tried shooting in JPG (which I never usually do)
and with AI Servo. 150 frames later with dogs moving at full speed
and I had maybe 5 frames out of focus (my fault when taking the
focussing square off of the subject). I was shooting at 5fps
sometimes up to 20 frames and by the time I would look down at the
camera it would already be finished writing (I actually thought it
was broken). Finally, almost every shot was also at a perfect
brightness level despite shooting dark dogs on white snow and the
white balance was near perfect.
As a comparison, with my 10D in the same situation, about 120 of
the 150 would be out of focus in the same shooting conditions, the
images would all be at least 25% too dark, they would all have a
blue cast from the snow, and I couldn't possibly take as many shots.
With all that in mind, do I really care if the shutter is loud?



--
Regards,
A

 

[avanbeek]

The thread had nothing to do with feeling better about a purchase or anything "stupid" as you termed. It has to do with using the camera as a working professional. There are some major annoyances when using a 10D in a situation like a wedding for example and the 20D thankfully has addressed much of this. I apologize for my enthusiasm and stupid threads and sometime forget that people prefer to hear one side of a story.

These forum never cease to amaze me in what will be offensive to people to the point where you get labelled as an idiot etc...

I have some good Canon and Sigma glass in my system. I have shot
with a 20D, D70, Drebel and Pentax *istDS, all excellent btw, but
Im not sure why some people say the 10D is a snail? Yes compared to
the 20D but to others its not a snail. All camera have pros and
cons. I have never had AF, backfocus or any other QC issues with
the 10D and it gives me immense shooting pleasure since I only take
one photo at a time. I could have bought a 20D now but I chose to
pay $1000 for a 6 month old 10D and spend the rest on my system.
This decision seemed like a good one. I have no desire to upgrade
the body but in time I will.
Im not sure why the big huff over the improvements or why this dumb
20d vs 10d string was even started. I think its an insecurty issue
with measurbators or something.

I would hope the 20D is a big improvment over my 10D but its like
the car world comparing the new and improved model over the
previous model. Big deal !

After a year and a half with 2 10Ds I picked up a couple of 20Ds
last week and have had some time to use them in a few different
settings.

My first impression is that anyone who thinks that they are no
different than a 10D has never owned or actually used both.

As an extreme use case I took my 20D with a 70-200IS 2.8 on a walk
with some dogs and tried shooting in JPG (which I never usually do)
and with AI Servo. 150 frames later with dogs moving at full speed
and I had maybe 5 frames out of focus (my fault when taking the
focussing square off of the subject). I was shooting at 5fps
sometimes up to 20 frames and by the time I would look down at the
camera it would already be finished writing (I actually thought it
was broken). Finally, almost every shot was also at a perfect
brightness level despite shooting dark dogs on white snow and the
white balance was near perfect.
As a comparison, with my 10D in the same situation, about 120 of
the 150 would be out of focus in the same shooting conditions, the
images would all be at least 25% too dark, they would all have a
blue cast from the snow, and I couldn't possibly take as many shots.
With all that in mind, do I really care if the shutter is loud?



--
Regards,
A

--
Regards,
A

 

[Cal Dawson]

the 20D is great and If I had the D30 maybe worth the investment but going from the 10D to the 20D for me anyways not worth it...The 20D (2nd one) was quick to focus about the same as the 10D, much faster startup ( I rarely turn mine off, just got back it was on the whole time). I do admit 5 fps would be great for sports along with the added MP...Maybe I got lucky and got a good 10D... Who knows...

Cal

Enjoy your new toys...to bad you didn't send your 10D's in for
calibration and get them working right the first time...

Or too bad you didn't send in the 20D (just messing with you).

Regards,
Mike

--
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity....

http://funshots.smugmug.com/