Learning macro, having issues, need advice

I have a macro lens, extension tubes, reverse ring, and Speedlight.

With the macro lens, I get good views in the view finder. But cannot get frame filling images. Using a D800 and Nikon Flash. With the 36MP of the camera, I guess I could crop, but I don't want to do that.

With the extension tubes, I have to get so close to the subject, there is no way I will be able to get close enough to any insect. In addition, the view through the view finder is so dark, it is impossible to focus on anything.

With Reversing ring, I am finding the same issues as the extension tubes, way too close to subject, darkness through the view finder.

Using a speedlight (Nikon SB-700) with all of the above

1. How can I correct these issues?
2. I need some stand off for insects, Yes/No?
3. Need some brightness through the view finder with Extension Tubes and Reverse rings. How can I get there?

I love macro and have even more stuff to do it with than you.

I have bad news.  If you are using a full frame camera the subject would have to be 35 mm to fill the frame at 1:1.  With higher magnification, you have to get closer for full  power.

If you can find a Sigma 150 mm macro or the 180 mm macro lens, it will give you more working distance.  I have the 150 mm macro lens with 2X converter.  That gives me 300 mm at about 30 cm.  That is 2:1 magnification.  That is wonderful but it is manual focus with the 2X converter.

The more magnification you have, the harder it is to find the subject in the view finder and the more any movement will show up.

I am old and have to use a mono pod for many of my shots.  If I am trying for large magnification,  a very sturdy tripod is the only way to go.

I use flash for nearly all my shots.

The butterfly is one centimeter long.

I will not hesitate to crop.  If I give myself a little more room, it gives me much better depth of field and the photo still looks great.

Micael Widell has 269 videos that will help make you a better macro guy.

At the moment I have an MFT 30mm macro lens as well as a 100mm A-mount lens for my Sony APS-C. I also have extension tubes but they are a pain.

To date I have mostly shot watch movements and parts and use an LED ring light.

I don't shoot (m)any bugs.

A longer lens will give you more room to add light as has already been mentioned.

At some point you'll then want to fiddle with focus stacking.

grsnovi wrote:

Micael Widell has 269 videos that will help make you a better macro guy.

I’d also suggest his getting started videos

I’d start with just your macro lens and manual flash to freeze movement,  till you get used to that,

if your after bugs try setting f8 1/100th and 1/4 flash, focus manually by moving the camera in and out to get focus , practise on something small in the house, adjust flash power a accordingly

you can get very close to some bugs

lots of advice in this forum so browse or search

I hated extension tubes when I started, now I use them almost always with the macro lens to get even closer, and a raynox 250 for more magnification… details are addictive

But sometimes it’s better to stay back, stay simple, and get more of the scene in

have fun

Gpruitt54 wrote:

I have a macro lens, extension tubes, reverse ring, and Speedlight.

I take it that this is the manual focus 105mm f/4 and PN-11 tube from your gear list.

That's a big part of your problem. Not what you've got as much as not knowing quite how to use it.

With the macro lens, I get good views in the view finder. But cannot get frame filling images.

Yes. That's a 0.5x macro. Your sensor is 24x36, so your field is (24x36)/0.5 = 48x72 or about 2x3 inches. That's fine for some subjects, for example most butterflies and preying mantises are bigger than that, and a lot of flowers are more than two inches in diameter.

It's not fine for other subjects. Ants tend to be anywhere from 5-15mm, unless you're living in Australia. (In which case, you have to be careful the ants don't carry your camera, you, or even your fried-out combi away).

Using a D800 and Nikon Flash. With the 36MP of the camera, I guess I could crop, but I don't want to do that.

Don't blame you.

With the extension tubes,

Tubes?

The PN-11 is the matching tube for the 105mm f/4: it adds enough length to get you to 1:1. Unfortunately, the 105mm is f/8 at 1:1. That's pretty slow to compose through the finder of a DSLR like the D800. And, as you've already found, it can eat your working distance.

A 2X teleconverter can get you to 1:1 but preserve the longer working distance. It still drops you to an effective f8, but the working distance is what you need. Nikon says this lens can use converters with protruding front elements like the TC-301. I assume it will also work with a TC-20E.

I have to get so close to the subject, there is no way I will be able to get close enough to any insect. In addition, the view through the view finder is so dark, it is impossible to focus on anything.

Have you tried using liveview? I believe the D800 has liveview that can also be used in conjunction with electronic first curtain (low vibration) shutter mode. Check into that.

There are inexpensive LED ringlights that can give you enough light to focus. You can still use your flash to provide more light for the actual shot.

With Reversing ring, I am finding the same issues as the extension tubes, way too close to subject, darkness through the view finder.

Yep. Are you trying to reverse the 105 itself? The best way to use the 105 is as a "tube lens" or "rear lens" with a reversed lens.

You have  a 24mm f/2.8 AF-D and a 50mm f/1.8 AF-D. You can get an inexpensive "macro coupling ring" which will let you put the 105mm on the camera, focus it to infinity, then mount the 24mm or 50mm "face to face" with the 105 and focus those lenses to infinity.

The reason you focus both lenses to infinity is that lenses are built to do a pretty good job of taking an object at some far distance from the front of the lens (they're generally optimized for 1 or 2 meters, 3-6 feet) and projecting it onto film or sensors 39mm from the rear element of the lens. So you let the "front lens" or "objective", the 24 or 50 project from the subject at 39mm to infinity, and then the 105 "rear lens", "eyepiece", or "tube lens" converts that infinity image back to a sensor image at 39mm.

The 50mm will let you shoot at exactly 2x. (It's not really 50mm, it's actually very close to 52.5mm) so you can fill the frame with an 18x12mm object. That's enough so a dime will get cut off at the top and bottom of the image. Wide open it's effective f/5.4, almost as bright as the 105mm on its own, no tubes. If you put a Nikon BR-3 ring on the rear of the reversed 24mm or 50mm, you can now mount that LED ring light you bought five paragraphs back.

The 24mm f/2.8 goes to 4.4x, but effective f/15 so you need a ton of light. But you do have that LED ring light to help you compose and focus.

Using a speedlight (Nikon SB-700) with all of the above

1. How can I correct these issues?
2. I need some stand off for insects, Yes/No?

Depends on the insects. Some are fine letting you approach within 10-20mm. Of course, lighting is a problem that close.

Others are much more shy. Many can "track" distance and have a well defined "fear circle". The Nikon 200mm f/4 Micro-Nikkor earned a reputation as "the" butterfly lens because it can shoot a butterfly

1. Need some brightness through the view finder with Extension Tubes and Reverse rings. How can I get there?

Fast (and therefore expensive) lenses, LED ring lights, or Nikon Z cameras.

I have a Zeiss 100mm f/2.0 macro which is f/4 at 1:1, and you already know that's fast enough for you.

I too am very new to macro, so can't offer any advice, but i do own the Nikkor micro 105mm f4 ais {1:2}.

Just in case someone suggests using a Raynox 150 with this specific lens.....i have noticed some quirks with this combo, so some caution is needed.

The Raynox is excellent on my Nikkor 35-70mm ais {1:4}, and my Nikkor 300mm f4.5 ais {giving me 1:1, or a bit more}, but the Raynox does prevent the use of the entire focus throw/range of the Nikkor 105mm f4 focus ring....towards the closest focus.

This thread should hopefully be useful for me too, although i am using M43 bodies, and am mainly interested in macro video.

edit:

just noticed your 105mm is the Ai version, so it may, or may not have the same quirk as the Ais.

Alan_W1 wrote:

I too am very new to macro, so can't offer any advice, but i do own the Nikkor micro 105mm f4 ais {1:2}.

Just in case someone suggests using a Raynox 150 with this specific lens.....i have noticed some quirks with this combo, so some caution is needed.

The Raynox is excellent on my Nikkor 35-70mm ais {1:4}, and my Nikkor 300mm f4.5 ais {giving me 1:1, or a bit more}, but the Raynox does prevent the use of the entire focus throw/range of the Nikkor 105mm f4 focus ring....towards the closest focus end.

However, this thread should hopefully be useful for me too, although i am using M43 bodies, and am mainly interested in macro video.

edit:

just noticed your 105mm is the Ai version, so it may, or may not have the same quirk as the Ais.

It so happens that I have a Nikkor 105 f4 Ai-s macro lens.  I have yet to try it on the D800.  To answer another comment...  I have no crop sensor cameras, they are all FX cameras.  I plan to use only the D800 going forward.

I too am a learner at macro, I shot this with my Panna G10 , kit 14 42 lens plus raynox250.

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

Gpruitt54 wrote:

I have a macro lens, extension tubes, reverse ring, and Speedlight.

I take it that this is the manual focus 105mm f/4 and PN-11 tube from your gear list.

That's a big part of your problem. Not what you've got as much as not knowing quite how to use it.

With the macro lens, I get good views in the view finder. But cannot get frame filling images.

Yes. That's a 0.5x macro. Your sensor is 24x36, so your field is (24x36)/0.5 = 48x72 or about 2x3 inches. That's fine for some subjects, for example most butterflies and preying mantises are bigger than that, and a lot of flowers are more than two inches in diameter.

It's not fine for other subjects. Ants tend to be anywhere from 5-15mm, unless you're living in Australia. (In which case, you have to be careful the ants don't carry your camera, you, or even your fried-out combi away).

Using a D800 and Nikon Flash. With the 36MP of the camera, I guess I could crop, but I don't want to do that.

Don't blame you.

With the extension tubes,

Tubes?

The PN-11 is the matching tube for the 105mm f/4: it adds enough length to get you to 1:1. Unfortunately, the 105mm is f/8 at 1:1. That's pretty slow to compose through the finder of a DSLR like the D800. And, as you've already found, it can eat your working distance.

A 2X teleconverter can get you to 1:1 but preserve the longer working distance. It still drops you to an effective f8, but the working distance is what you need. Nikon says this lens can use converters with protruding front elements like the TC-301. I assume it will also work with a TC-20E.

I have to get so close to the subject, there is no way I will be able to get close enough to any insect. In addition, the view through the view finder is so dark, it is impossible to focus on anything.

Have you tried using liveview? I believe the D800 has liveview that can also be used in conjunction with electronic first curtain (low vibration) shutter mode. Check into that.

There are inexpensive LED ringlights that can give you enough light to focus. You can still use your flash to provide more light for the actual shot.

With Reversing ring, I am finding the same issues as the extension tubes, way too close to subject, darkness through the view finder.

Yep. Are you trying to reverse the 105 itself? The best way to use the 105 is as a "tube lens" or "rear lens" with a reversed lens.

You have a 24mm f/2.8 AF-D and a 50mm f/1.8 AF-D. You can get an inexpensive "macro coupling ring" which will let you put the 105mm on the camera, focus it to infinity, then mount the 24mm or 50mm "face to face" with the 105 and focus those lenses to infinity.

The reason you focus both lenses to infinity is that lenses are built to do a pretty good job of taking an object at some far distance from the front of the lens (they're generally optimized for 1 or 2 meters, 3-6 feet) and projecting it onto film or sensors 39mm from the rear element of the lens. So you let the "front lens" or "objective", the 24 or 50 project from the subject at 39mm to infinity, and then the 105 "rear lens", "eyepiece", or "tube lens" converts that infinity image back to a sensor image at 39mm.

The 50mm will let you shoot at exactly 2x. (It's not really 50mm, it's actually very close to 52.5mm) so you can fill the frame with an 18x12mm object. That's enough so a dime will get cut off at the top and bottom of the image. Wide open it's effective f/5.4, almost as bright as the 105mm on its own, no tubes. If you put a Nikon BR-3 ring on the rear of the reversed 24mm or 50mm, you can now mount that LED ring light you bought five paragraphs back.

The 24mm f/2.8 goes to 4.4x, but effective f/15 so you need a ton of light. But you do have that LED ring light to help you compose and focus.

Using a speedlight (Nikon SB-700) with all of the above

1. How can I correct these issues?
2. I need some stand off for insects, Yes/No?

Depends on the insects. Some are fine letting you approach within 10-20mm. Of course, lighting is a problem that close.

Others are much more shy. Many can "track" distance and have a well defined "fear circle". The Nikon 200mm f/4 Micro-Nikkor earned a reputation as "the" butterfly lens because it can shoot a butterfly

1. Need some brightness through the view finder with Extension Tubes and Reverse rings. How can I get there?

Fast (and therefore expensive) lenses, LED ring lights, or Nikon Z cameras.

I have a Zeiss 100mm f/2.0 macro which is f/4 at 1:1, and you already know that's fast enough for you.

First, Thanks for all the information. There is lot to unpack here, so I will keep it simple. I am just getting started with macro. So, I will avoid getting to in front of my skies with things like mounting lenses face-to-face. I am not ready for that. I am playing with the prime lens with mounting them with reverse rings, and/or extension tubes. Have not tried these things with the 105 as of yet, but I will. As of right now, I really want to understand how to get some level of stand-off abilities. I see this as the only way to get close to insects and not scare them off. I see no way to even begin focus stacking if the insect will not stay there long enough for me to get the shots required for the stacking process. So, I am holding off on focus stacking for the here and now.

So far, the short and wide lens offer great magnification with a combination of reverse rings and tubes. Great for non-living things, but terrible for living creatures. I have not yet found a way to gain stand-off shooting range with the short and wide lenses, and likely impossible to do so. So, I am concentrating on using the 105mm f/4 Ai-s macro with tubes and see how that goes.

jonbev wrote:

I too am a learner at macro, I shot this with my Panna G10 , kit 14 42 lens plus raynox250.

The Raynox 250 is that lens that goes in front of a standard telephoto lens, right?  Does the Raynox 250 actually work as expected.  This image looks really good.  I am tempted to buy one.  However, many YouTube reviews say there is a noticeable amount of edge softness in the images these things produce.

It seems generally that crop sensor cameras are better for macro. Unfortunately, I just sold my only remaining crop sensor camera (Nikon D2700), and recently picked up another full frame (Nikon D800).  I still have a D2h (Crop Sensor Camera).  But, it has such a low MP count (4.2ish MP) I hesitate to use it for anything at all.

3D Gunner wrote:

All equipment for cameras with smaller sensors is lighter and cheaper. Higher magnification ratios are easier to achieve.

First of all, mirrorless cameras are more useful, because they can provide a normal brightness of the image on the screen regardless of the amount of light reaching the sensor (~), i.e. you can see the subject, frame it and adjust the focus in situations where with optical viewfinders you can't see anything.

Now that I have the DSLR cameras I've wanted for a long time, the next camera I buy (at some point) will be mirrorless.  So, I am figuring this out with what I already own.

Ordered a Raynox 250 device. Will give it a shop with the lenses I already have, and see what the results look like.

Interesting are Nikon 300mm f/4.5 AI-s glass.  big, old-school class, heavy I would imagine.  Cannot say that I know the math associated with lens, shooting distance with various attachments like tubes and/or front objectives.

3D Gunner wrote:

Just for fun, a dead sewer fly on a dry leaf, photographed with the old Nikon 200mm f/4 AI-s lens plus 50mm extension tubes, plus Marumi DHG Achromat Macro 200(+5), APS-C sensor. You can see that the FoV is ~13mm and that the fly measures ~3mm.

Aperture used on lens is f:16, single frame, camera on a two point support system (camera and lens), all on tripod.

Raynox 250 is very good on macro lenses, but working distance will be limited.

The Raynox 250 should arrive tomrrow (Thanks Amazon). Looking forward to experimenting with the Raynox 250 device on various lenses.  I will post some of my  experiments.  I love these kinds of learning experiences!  Thanks for the input.

Samples if images taken using the Raynox 250, a remarkable device.  These images were taken with a Nikon D800 camera.  The lens is a 105mm AI-s f4.0 manual focus with the Raynox 250 attachment.  Flash used is a Nikon SB-700, with a diffuser.

Let me thank you all for your input.  It is too bad that this website is going belly up next month.  Not sure where to go for the resource this site has become.