Digital 2x and 4x extender

0lf wrote:

This may or may not help you, but Canon has implemented a digital teleconverter for ages on its powershot range of cameras (old cameras like s90 (2009, digic4) have it).

My G7x2 have it and I see no improvement or downgrade in IQ in comparison to crop in postprocessing. To me, it is just crop plus upscalling. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use it to help with framing, or when you don’t want to process your images.

Hi Olf

Thanks for feeding in. I think it sounds like it's now been implemented in two cameras, one being something quite far up the food chain the R6 II

It's quite plausible it's doing something similar/same.

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

If something sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is. A 4x “digital TC” is only using one sixteenth of the sensor area, so that’s a 1.5MP image. When that is upscaled to 24MP, you’re not going to have “image quality retained”. It’s a trick, pure and simple, more suitable for smartphones than cameras. But then I guess that’s the target demographic.

Maybe it's trying to say this is an improvement over a 4x crop. I think it's that which is the comparison rather than with 4x FL.

Same thing, same issue. 4x crop is the same as 4x “digital teleconverter”. A 24MP R50 sensor with a 4x crop = 1.5 MP image.

The question: is it the same thing. They suggest it isn't the same.

So in camera zoom isn't the same as the equivalent crop after the fact.

So no, not the same.

OK then please explain how it is “not the same”. The R50 has 24MP, no more. If you apply a 4x (which must be squared) you have just 1.5MP to use. If that is then upscaled, it is not using genuine data and there will be artefacts and loss of detail. You can’t change the laws of physics of maths.

I couldn't possibly comment on changing the laws of physics of maths but changing the laws (rules, guide?) Of maths and science is a daily affair.

So what I said is that they (Canon) suggest that taking a 4x crop after the fact isn't the same as what they (Canon) are doing with this digital zoom.

Noone has so far explained how this system operates.

If you take a 4x crop after the fact. The result is A

If I use Canons in camera zoom at a x4 level. The result is B

We display the two images at equal size

The suggestion (Canons) is that A does not equal B

I say again I do not know how this Canon system works, however I would be interested in knowing.

0lf wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

0lf wrote:

This may or may not help you, but Canon has implemented a digital teleconverter for ages on its powershot range of cameras (old cameras like s90 (2009, digic4) have it).

My G7x2 have it and I see no improvement or downgrade in IQ in comparison to crop in postprocessing. To me, it is just crop plus upscalling. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use it to help with framing, or when you don’t want to process your images.

Hi Olf

Thanks for feeding in. I think it sounds like it's now been implemented in two cameras, one being something quite far up the food chain the R6 II

It's quite plausible it's doing something similar/same.

it seems to be implemented in eos R range of cameras since the R6 2, then. The R8 have it, and the r10 does not. As someone has said, all digic X are not created equal, and canon adds features progressively.

Ah okay. I haven't had a Canon with such a feature. Wonder why it's not just a normal feature.

Let's hope Canon knows 🤣

0lf wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

If something sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is. A 4x “digital TC” is only using one sixteenth of the sensor area, so that’s a 1.5MP image. When that is upscaled to 24MP, you’re not going to have “image quality retained”. It’s a trick, pure and simple, more suitable for smartphones than cameras. But then I guess that’s the target demographic.

Maybe it's trying to say this is an improvement over a 4x crop. I think it's that which is the comparison rather than with 4x FL.

Same thing, same issue. 4x crop is the same as 4x “digital teleconverter”. A 24MP R50 sensor with a 4x crop = 1.5 MP image.

The question: is it the same thing. They suggest it isn't the same.

So in camera zoom isn't the same as the equivalent crop after the fact.

So no, not the same.

OK then please explain how it is “not the same”. The R50 has 24MP, no more. If you apply a 4x (which must be squared) you have just 1.5MP to use. If that is then upscaled, it is not using genuine data and there will be artefacts and loss of detail. You can’t change the laws of physics of maths.

I couldn't possibly comment on changing the laws of physics of maths but changing the laws (rules, guide?) Of maths and science is a daily affair.

So what I said is that they (Canon) suggest that taking a 4x crop after the fact isn't the same as what they (Canon) are doing with this digital zoom.

Noone has so far explained how this system operates.

If you take a 4x crop after the fact. The result is A

If I use Canons in camera zoom at a x4 level. The result is B

We display the two images at equal size

The suggestion (Canons) is that A does not equal B

I say again I do not know how this Canon system works, however I would be interested in knowing.

This was not meant to be a test of the feature, so there is variation between the shots, but may be you will find it informative

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4409591

Given the results with the G7x, I would presume the R50 to give excellent results at 2x.

Thanks Olf. I think your post is a little more helpful that the response you got in the past..

It does appear to be a helpful feature.

Thanks for your post I appreciate it

Ephemeris wrote:

0lf wrote:

This may or may not help you, but Canon has implemented a digital teleconverter for ages on its powershot range of cameras (old cameras like s90 (2009, digic4) have it).

My G7x2 have it and I see no improvement or downgrade in IQ in comparison to crop in postprocessing. To me, it is just crop plus upscalling. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use it to help with framing, or when you don’t want to process your images.

Hi Olf

Thanks for feeding in. I think it sounds like it's now been implemented in two cameras, one being something quite far up the food chain the R6 II

It's quite plausible it's doing something similar/same.

Given that people are using R6 mk2 now hopefully someone will be willing to do a little test.  Say take a picture and crop and simple upscale and do the same with the digital TC and see what difference is perceptible.

BirdShooter7 wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

0lf wrote:

This may or may not help you, but Canon has implemented a digital teleconverter for ages on its powershot range of cameras (old cameras like s90 (2009, digic4) have it).

My G7x2 have it and I see no improvement or downgrade in IQ in comparison to crop in postprocessing. To me, it is just crop plus upscalling. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use it to help with framing, or when you don’t want to process your images.

Hi Olf

Thanks for feeding in. I think it sounds like it's now been implemented in two cameras, one being something quite far up the food chain the R6 II

It's quite plausible it's doing something similar/same.

Given that people are using R6 mk2 now hopefully someone will be willing to do a little test. Say take a picture and crop and simple upscale and do the same with the digital TC and see what difference is perceptible.

Would seem a good idea. I haven't given too much thought as to why it's on some cameras and not others. Marketing? Design teams? Who knows.

I do use the scaling features in LR, PS and from Topaz but maybe this is a quicker way to get an image to a user, website, social and so forth

Who knows maybe the next camera will have ChatCBT and do something magic 🪄

Some of my bird photos can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gregsbirds/

BirdShooter7 wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

0lf wrote:

This may or may not help you, but Canon has implemented a digital teleconverter for ages on its powershot range of cameras (old cameras like s90 (2009, digic4) have it).

My G7x2 have it and I see no improvement or downgrade in IQ in comparison to crop in postprocessing. To me, it is just crop plus upscalling. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use it to help with framing, or when you don’t want to process your images.

Hi Olf

Thanks for feeding in. I think it sounds like it's now been implemented in two cameras, one being something quite far up the food chain the R6 II

It's quite plausible it's doing something similar/same.

Given that people are using R6 mk2 now hopefully someone will be willing to do a little test. Say take a picture and crop and simple upscale and do the same with the digital TC and see what difference is perceptible.

On a tripod with a static subject, and manual focus, please!  Otherwise, there are too many variables.

John Sheehy wrote:

BirdShooter7 wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

0lf wrote:

This may or may not help you, but Canon has implemented a digital teleconverter for ages on its powershot range of cameras (old cameras like s90 (2009, digic4) have it).

My G7x2 have it and I see no improvement or downgrade in IQ in comparison to crop in postprocessing. To me, it is just crop plus upscalling. Sometimes it is just more convenient to use it to help with framing, or when you don’t want to process your images.

Hi Olf

Thanks for feeding in. I think it sounds like it's now been implemented in two cameras, one being something quite far up the food chain the R6 II

It's quite plausible it's doing something similar/same.

Given that people are using R6 mk2 now hopefully someone will be willing to do a little test. Say take a picture and crop and simple upscale and do the same with the digital TC and see what difference is perceptible.

On a tripod with a static subject, and manual focus, please! Otherwise, there are too many variables.

Agreed

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

If something sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is. A 4x “digital TC” is only using one sixteenth of the sensor area, so that’s a 1.5MP image. When that is upscaled to 24MP, you’re not going to have “image quality retained”. It’s a trick, pure and simple, more suitable for smartphones than cameras. But then I guess that’s the target demographic.

Maybe it's trying to say this is an improvement over a 4x crop. I think it's that which is the comparison rather than with 4x FL.

Same thing, same issue. 4x crop is the same as 4x “digital teleconverter”. A 24MP R50 sensor with a 4x crop = 1.5 MP image.

The question: is it the same thing. They suggest it isn't the same.

So in camera zoom isn't the same as the equivalent crop after the fact.

So no, not the same.

OK then please explain how it is “not the same”. The R50 has 24MP, no more. If you apply a 4x (which must be squared) you have just 1.5MP to use. If that is then upscaled, it is not using genuine data and there will be artefacts and loss of detail. You can’t change the laws of physics of maths.

I couldn't possibly comment on changing the laws of physics of maths but changing the laws (rules, guide?) Of maths and science is a daily affair.

So what I said is that they (Canon) suggest that taking a 4x crop after the fact isn't the same as what they (Canon) are doing with this digital zoom.

Noone has so far explained how this system operates.

If you take a 4x crop after the fact. The result is A

If I use Canons in camera zoom at a x4 level. The result is B

We display the two images at equal size

The suggestion (Canons) is that A does not equal B

I say again I do not know how this Canon system works, however I would be interested in knowing.

Here is a quote direct from the R50 Advanced Manual:

”Shooting magnification can be increased beyond lens magnification by enlarging the center of the image area”

In other words, it is a crop. Whether or not it then applies any upsampling is not stated. It also states:

“Caution- Higher shooting magnification results in lower image quality. Not available when RAW image quality is selected.”

I think that is conclusive. There is no magic. The results may suit some users. 2x (6MP) will be better than 4x (1.5MP).

Conclusive? I'm not sure of that. If it is for you then great but my engineering brain still sits where I started. I don't know what it is doing. I also ask is this useful to some people? I could see it may help to miss some steps out on occasion

Given we have a user kind enough to share some images of another canon system I'm (and others) are hopefully that someone with an r6II will share some imagery.

I'm not sure why you wish this (your thoughts) to be true?

Does this feature interest you?

I do appreciate you posting that element of the manual but I had taken a little time to have a quick scan myself.

Here’s the page:

Here's a sample of 2x digital zoom from 6 years ago -

800mm eq. from a FZ1000 - 1 inch 20 meg sensor.

Like I said above, about the same IQ as your basic cell phone.

chipman wrote:

Here's a sample of 2x digital zoom from 6 years ago -

800mm eq. from a FZ1000 - 1 inch 20 meg sensor.

Like I said above, about the same IQ as your basic cell phone.

Would you have a way to show a comparison to a crop?

I think that's what's needed, plus some constraints such as those John suggested.

0lf wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

0lf wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

drsnoopy wrote:

If something sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is. A 4x “digital TC” is only using one sixteenth of the sensor area, so that’s a 1.5MP image. When that is upscaled to 24MP, you’re not going to have “image quality retained”. It’s a trick, pure and simple, more suitable for smartphones than cameras. But then I guess that’s the target demographic.

Maybe it's trying to say this is an improvement over a 4x crop. I think it's that which is the comparison rather than with 4x FL.

Same thing, same issue. 4x crop is the same as 4x “digital teleconverter”. A 24MP R50 sensor with a 4x crop = 1.5 MP image.

The question: is it the same thing. They suggest it isn't the same.

So in camera zoom isn't the same as the equivalent crop after the fact.

So no, not the same.

OK then please explain how it is “not the same”. The R50 has 24MP, no more. If you apply a 4x (which must be squared) you have just 1.5MP to use. If that is then upscaled, it is not using genuine data and there will be artefacts and loss of detail. You can’t change the laws of physics of maths.

I couldn't possibly comment on changing the laws of physics of maths but changing the laws (rules, guide?) Of maths and science is a daily affair.

So what I said is that they (Canon) suggest that taking a 4x crop after the fact isn't the same as what they (Canon) are doing with this digital zoom.

Noone has so far explained how this system operates.

If you take a 4x crop after the fact. The result is A

If I use Canons in camera zoom at a x4 level. The result is B

We display the two images at equal size

The suggestion (Canons) is that A does not equal B

I say again I do not know how this Canon system works, however I would be interested in knowing.

This was not meant to be a test of the feature, so there is variation between the shots, but may be you will find it informative

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4409591

Given the results with the G7x, I would presume the R50 to give excellent results at 2x.

Thanks Olf. I think your post is a little more helpful that the response you got in the past..

It does appear to be a helpful feature.

Thanks for your post I appreciate it

I just find an old test I made after buying the G7x2

max optical zoom + 2x crop in post

2x digital zoom

Thanks Olf.

Looks like the digital zoom has some noise, almost the type you get from creating a JPEG. What do you think?

chipman wrote:

Here's a sample of 2x digital zoom from 6 years ago -

800mm eq. from a FZ1000 - 1 inch 20 meg sensor.

Like I said above, about the same IQ as your basic cell phone.

Thanks for this but I thought we were discussing whatever version of the feature is in these latest R cameras and if it’s something more than a simple upscale.

BirdShooter7 wrote:

chipman wrote:

Here's a sample of 2x digital zoom from 6 years ago -

800mm eq. from a FZ1000 - 1 inch 20 meg sensor.

Like I said above, about the same IQ as your basic cell phone.

Thanks for this but I thought we were discussing whatever version of the feature is in these latest R cameras and if it’s something more than a simple upscale.

We are. That is more or less the question.

I had thought whilst on my daily rounds if an OEM could use something at the level of Gigapixel AI becuase they now have a multi core AI engine within the ASIC it could be quite a selling point.

If course plenty will disagree with me (which is just fine) but more musing the possibility.

We are leveraging a new system from nVidia Drive Hyperon using a SoC called Atlan. Maybe Canon have something as advanced (this does use quite a bit of juice).

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Some of my bird photos can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gregsbirds/