Help with choosing a lens.

At present, I use Raynox and achromats on my M4/3 camera and was considering the 40 mm 2'8 Artisans, I realize the working distance will be small but  I do not see that

I need to improve on this kind of shots. thanks for looking.

to be a big worry, Has any user got useful results and is it smooth to focus? Also. how does it perform for general usage? comments appreciated.

Person9 wrote:

First, i really like you photograph! Very interesting lighting, composition and geometry.

Second, I am not familiar with the 40mm Artisans lens (I think you may mean 60mm), but, if i may, I have some comments about the sharpness of your image, or lack thereof:

There's actually two completely independent companies.

TTArtisan makes the 40mm f/2.8 macro: https://www.ttartisan.com/?list_10/129.html

7Artisans makes the 60mm f/2.8 macro: https://7artisans.store/products/60mm-f2-8

Looking at the optical designs, the 40mm appears to be more sophisticated than the 60.

Looking at the mechanical, the 40mm is either a fully unit-focusing (all groups move together) design or a minimally floating-element (some groups move on one helicoid, the rest move on a second helicoid) design, while the 60 is either massively floating element or has a fixed rear group, so it doesn't deliver the working distance you'd expect from a 60.

Side-by-side reviewers tend to give the 40 the prize for image quality.

It looks like there is some motion blur; even the sharpest parts in the center are not sharp, and I don't think that is a lens defect nor the fault of the Raynox, which is a fine optic. Motion blur can come from many sources:

It's a 3-element achromat. When used with a lens with a focal length near its own, the simpler lens dominates the optical quality equation, so with the 125mm Raynox in front of a 43mm Panasonic, the end result is going to look more like the 3 element Raynox than the 10 element Panasonic.

a) For shots like this, a tripod is a necessity.

Or a flash.

b) A remote release or self-timer should be used to avoid camera shake.

c) wind or vibrations through the floor can cause problems.

Since aperture was f/18, I don't think it is a depth-of-field issue, since nowhere is it sharp.

f/18 is a dang small aperture on a uFT camera: equivalent to f/36 on FF. I'd never expect that to look sharp.

In the long run, focus stacking will make a major improvement, giving you "limitless" depth-of-field. The 7Artisans macros lenses are fine, and you could do focus stacking by carefully turning the focus ring in very small increments to make each slice of the stack (waiting between shots for the camera/tripod to settle down).

That would make a mess. It results in anomalous perspective: the entrance pupil moves a greater distance than the shift in the focal plane. Generally, you only get good results by focusing "internal focus" designs.

An alternative would be to use a focusing rail.

"Alternative" being "the only way to really make it work".

For what it's worth, I don't think that today there is a "bad" or "poor" or even a "so-so" macro lens. They generally differ only in features, such as manual or autofocus, image stability or none, automatic or manual aperture control, and maximum magnification.

And working distance, focus breathing, field flatness (still a problem in 2023 with some lenses, believe it or not), and ability to focus stack using the lens's own control without making a focusing rail mandatory.

jonbev wrote:

At present, I use Raynox and achromats on my M4/3 camera and was considering the 40 mm 2'8 Artisans, I realize the working distance will be small but I do not see that

to be a big worry, Has any user got useful results and is it smooth to focus? Also. how does it perform for general usage? comments appreciated.I need to improve on this kind of shots.

Well, if your 42.5 or some other uFT lens you own is in the right magnification range for your work when using the Raynox, you might try opening up your aperture a bit, because f18 is insane on a uFT, locking the camera down on a sturdy tripod, and using a basic focusing rail. Try f5.6. The rail will dramatically improve your ability to manual focus, and it will be a big help using focus stacking.

I can heartily recommend two rails in the $100 range.

• The NiSi NM-180 lists for $129, but frequently goes on sale for around $100, and occasionally for around $80.
• The Haoge FM-160 lists for $70, and I've never seen one on sale.

The NiSi moves 1.25mm/turn of the focus knob, and I've found that a bit too fine at small magnifications like 0.5x, but a major asset at high mag like 5x. The Haoge moves 4mm/turn and I wouldn't try to use it for high mag, but it's great for stuff like what you're doing now (about 0.3x) on up to maybe 2x.

Both rails have Arcs clamps, but the Haoge is fixed in the sideways "Really Right Stuff" orientation, while the NiSi can be rotated either sideways or longways, the way the tripod collar on my 200mm macro works. Don't worry too much about that at this point in your journey: macro lenses with integrated tripod feet tend to be in the $1,000-2,000 range, not the $100-200 range. I'd look seriously at the Haoge.

Now, if you want to get wild and crazy, what normally use for work like yours is a 105mm f/5.6 EL-Nikkor enlarger lens on an old Nikon PB-4 bellows. That lens is about $50 used,, the bellows is around $150, and the Nikon to uFT adapter about $20. The bellows has an integrated geared focusing rail, along with both front and rear geared movements, and a limited tilt and swing on the front element. With a 105, it goes from 0x mag (infinity focus) to about 1.5x mag. And for another $50 you can add a 50mm f/2.8 EL-Nikkor which covers the range from 1.5x to 4x.

Watch one of Allan Walls's videos on bellows + enlarger lenses to get an idea of what you can do with one.

Thank's for the bundle of info, I bit the bullet and ordered the 60mm, however I am a bit puzzled as to why you say it is not the normal 60 range? I already have a Soligor focussing rail, though probably my ancient eyesight won't do it justice, we shall see.

jonbev wrote:

Thank's for the bundle of info, I bit the bullet and ordered the 60mm, however I am a bit puzzled as to why you say it is not the normal 60 range?

Most modern macro lenses have designs where the focal length of the lens gets shorter as you focus closer. Otherwise, they have to extend very long as they focus. A 60mm "unit focusing" lens that doesn’t change focal length would have to extend 60mm longer to hit 1:1, which makes for a very complex mechanism. But the working distance would be close to 120mm from the front of the lens.

bclaff points out that there's an original and "mark II" version of the 60mm.

The older one focuses to 260mm from the focal plane. It's 100mm long, there's about another 20mm to account for the distance from the lens mount to the focal plane and the front of the lens extends about 30mm, so that eats up 150 of the 260mm, leaving you with about 110mm, which is pretty good, only a little shorter than a 60mm unit focusing lens.

The Mark II only focuses to 175mm. It's about 90mm long (7Artisans doesn’t list the actual length and there's that 20mm inside the camera, so about 110mm total, which means you're about 65mm from the lens front to your subject, nearly the same as the TTArtisan 40mm.

If you want a good idea of the true focal length of a macro lens…

(closest focus distance - capsule length / 4) / 4. You can estimate the capsule length from the optical diagrams: both lenses look to be around 60mm.

Mark I is about 61mm.

Mark II is around 40mm.

I already have a Soligor focussing rail, though probably my ancient eyesight won't do it justice, we shall see.

That's where your camera’s "focus magnifier" and "focus peaking" features come in. Yoir eyes barely matter: your hands are everything.

bclaff wrote:

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

Person9 wrote:

...

Second, I am not familiar with the 40mm Artisans lens (I think you may mean 60mm), ...

There's actually two completely independent companies.

TTArtisan makes the 40mm f/2.8 macro: https://www.ttartisan.com/?list_10/129.html

7Artisans makes the 60mm f/2.8 macro: https://7artisans.store/products/60mm-f2-8

Looking at the optical designs, the 40mm appears to be more sophisticated than the 60.

Looking at the mechanical, the 40mm is either a fully unit-focusing (all groups move together) design or a minimally floating-element (some groups move on one helicoid, the rest move on a second helicoid) design, while the 60 is either massively floating element or has a fixed rear group, so it doesn't deliver the working distance you'd expect from a 60.

...

Aren't there two 7Artisan lenses?

60mm f/2.8 APS-C lens for E/EOS-M/FX/M43
60mm f/2.8 Mark II APS-C lens for E/EOS-M/EOS-R/FX/M43/Z/L

There are indeed. Thank you for that info.

The Mark II design is quite different.

Quite. Total internal focusing, and a massive reduction in working distance.

The Mk I focuses to 260mm, the lens is stated to be 100mm long, probably on the Sony mount version that has another 18mm inside the camera from lens mount to sensor, and that extending part looks to add another 30mm or so, leaving you

260-100-18-30 = 112mm from front of lens to subject, which is really great.

The Mk II only focuses to 175mm, and based on its 49mm filter size, I put the lens at 90mm.

175-90-18 = 67mm.

About half what you get from the Mk I. Ouch!