DST on R5: Canon EOS R Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

DST on R5

Started 2 weeks ago | Questions

PDE94301 • Forum Member • Posts: 60

DST on R5

2 weeks ago

I believe the answer is no, but can the R5 automatically switch its onboard clock 1 hour forward in March, and back again in November?

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Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 50mm F1.2L USM Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM Canon RF 85mm F1.2L USM

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Canon EOS R5

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chipman • Regular Member • Posts: 491

Re: DST on R5

In reply to PDE94301 • 2 weeks ago

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART178153

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OP PDE94301 • Forum Member • Posts: 60

Re: DST on R5

In reply to chipman • 2 weeks ago

chipman wrote:

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART178153

Thanks. I think this confirms my suspicion that it won't change automatically, e.g.,

4. Set daylight saving time.

- Set it as necessary.

It's not a big deal, but it's a minor hassle to remember to adjust the camera time every few months, given you've already entered your time zone. Seems like it would be a very easy firmware improvement to make it automatic based on known DST conventions.

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Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 50mm F1.2L USM Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM Canon RF 85mm F1.2L USM

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CameraCarl • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,193

Re: DST on R5

In reply to PDE94301 • 2 weeks ago

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Mark B. • Forum Pro • Posts: 29,742

Re: DST on R5

In reply to PDE94301 • 2 weeks ago

PDE94301 wrote:

I believe the answer is no, but can the R5 automatically switch its onboard clock 1 hour forward in March, and back again in November?

The only way that could happen is if the camera had a continuous cellular or internet connection.

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OP PDE94301 • Forum Member • Posts: 60

Re: DST on R5

In reply to Mark B. • 2 weeks ago

Mark B. wrote:

PDE94301 wrote:

I believe the answer is no, but can the R5 automatically switch its onboard clock 1 hour forward in March, and back again in November?

The only way that could happen is if the camera had a continuous cellular or internet connection.

Not sure I follow why that's the case. If you tell it what city's time zone you're in it should know when to flip the clock. For example, in '23 it would change time in LA time zone on March 12 & Nov 5, in London on Mar 26/Oct 29, in Tokyo it wouldn't change, etc. I think you could simply have a table of selectable cities in the firmware to automate this. If in the future if countries adopt or abandon DST then future firmware updates would capture that. That doesn't seem overly difficult to me.

PDE94301's gear list:PDE94301's gear list

Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 50mm F1.2L USM Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM Canon RF 85mm F1.2L USM

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BobKnDP • Senior Member • Posts: 3,140

Re: DST on R5

In reply to Mark B. • 2 weeks ago

Mark B. wrote:

PDE94301 wrote:

I believe the answer is no, but can the R5 automatically switch its onboard clock 1 hour forward in March, and back again in November?

The only way that could happen is if the camera had a continuous cellular or internet connection.

No.

After the date, time, and location were set, all that would be needed would be the rules for that location.

I have a (low-end) remote weather station. It has no Internet connection, and it receives no time signals. It automatically does DST, using the standard that applies to most of the US. (DST can be turned off, for those places like Arizona that don't switch.)

If the rules change, it won't work correctly. I believe that the last change was in 2007.

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Ali • Senior Member • Posts: 1,969

Re: DST on R5

In reply to PDE94301 • 2 weeks ago

Even if they could do it thru built in tables and without a network connection, I am sure companies don’t want to be in the business of having to release firmware updates for DST adjustments, which do happen pretty often around the world. Especially firmware updates many years after the camera has been released.

One problem with having a built in table that may go stale is that your camera will change the time when you are not expecting it.

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Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX50V Olympus TG-5 Panasonic Lumix DC-ZS80 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5

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koenkooi • Contributing Member • Posts: 920

Re: DST on R5

In reply to Ali • 2 weeks ago

Ali wrote:

Even if they could do it thru built in tables and without a network connection, I am sure companies don’t want to be in the business of having to release firmware updates for DST adjustments, which do happen pretty often around the world. Especially firmware updates many years after the camera has been released.

One problem with having a built in table that may go stale is that your camera will change the time when you are not expecting it.

Exactly this! If you look at https://www.iana.org/time-zones you can see that in 2022 there were at least 7 changes that caused a release of the tzdata files.

The example that comes to mind is Turkey in 2015, where they moved DST 2 weeks later, with little to no forewarning, for election shenanigans: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34631326

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Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS M Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 85mm F1.8 USM +20 more

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BobKnDP • Senior Member • Posts: 3,140

Re: DST on R5

In reply to koenkooi • 2 weeks ago

koenkooi wrote:

Ali wrote:

Even if they could do it thru built in tables and without a network connection, I am sure companies don’t want to be in the business of having to release firmware updates for DST adjustments, which do happen pretty often around the world. Especially firmware updates many years after the camera has been released.

One problem with having a built in table that may go stale is that your camera will change the time when you are not expecting it.

Exactly this! If you look at https://www.iana.org/time-zones you can see that in 2022 there were at least 7 changes that caused a release of the tzdata files.

The example that comes to mind is Turkey in 2015, where they moved DST 2 weeks later, with little to no forewarning, for election shenanigans: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34631326

I hadn't considered the complexities of the world market.

However: do you change the time settings in your camera when you cross time zones? Do you care if your EXIFs are tagged with the correct local time?

I wonder why the standard isn't set to Zulu time. As long as the camera's clock is set correctly with respect to that, the time tag would be accurate regardless of locale. (If memory serves, Microsoft Windows files are tagged by Zulu time. The time and date displayed in Windows are those of the PC's time zone, though.)

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apersson850 • Senior Member • Posts: 2,076

Re: DST on R5

In reply to BobKnDP • 2 weeks ago

The camera does both. Your images will have the time for the time zone you set as well as UTC.

Garmin is a company that does try to keep up with changing DST specifications. There's a massive amount of firmware updates released for many models just to cover that. So they know all about it.

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koenkooi • Contributing Member • Posts: 920

Re: DST on R5

In reply to BobKnDP • 2 weeks ago

BobKnDP wrote:

koenkooi wrote:

Ali wrote:

Even if they could do it thru built in tables and without a network connection, I am sure companies don’t want to be in the business of having to release firmware updates for DST adjustments, which do happen pretty often around the world. Especially firmware updates many years after the camera has been released.

One problem with having a built in table that may go stale is that your camera will change the time when you are not expecting it.

Exactly this! If you look at https://www.iana.org/time-zones you can see that in 2022 there were at least 7 changes that caused a release of the tzdata files.

The example that comes to mind is Turkey in 2015, where they moved DST 2 weeks later, with little to no forewarning, for election shenanigans: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34631326

I hadn't considered the complexities of the world market.

However: do you change the time settings in your camera when you cross time zones?

Yes, I've gotten pretty good at remembering to do that right before boarding

Do you care if your EXIFs are tagged with the correct local time?

Extremely. But I care more that all cameras agree on which minute it is. Recent Canon cameras like to drift, my M6II does a few minutes per week. My R5 almost always has the GP-E2 mounted when used outdoors, so its clock is reasonably correct.

I wonder why the standard isn't set to Zulu time. As long as the camera's clock is set correctly with respect to that, the time tag would be accurate regardless of locale. (If memory serves, Microsoft Windows files are tagged by Zulu time. The time and date displayed in Windows are those of the PC's time zone, though.)

One of the issues is that the EXIF spec doesn't specify an option for Zulu/GMT nor for timezones. Canon does store the time offsets in a vendor specific section, so you can derive both the local time without adjustments, GMT and the time that is displayed on clocks locally.

Another thing to consider is how your photo organizer (e.g. LR) and viewer (e.g. phone) handle time. In the past I really liked how Google Photos would auto generate an album for your travels, including Indiana Jones style travel maps. The problem was that the generator would look at your current timezone, so if it ran after you got back home, your days would be off, in my case due to the 9 hours between California and The Netherlands. Google understands timezones, use GMT internally but use your current location to set midnight for showing the weekday.

I'd like to see a few changes to how Canon cameras handle time and syncing:

Allow time sync over bluetooth, currently the phone app only allows time sync over wifi. It does allow GPS sync over bluetooth...
Try contacting a time server every time a connection over wifi is made
Fix 'automatic sync' when using the phone app, it still needs a manual sync
Allow camera-to-camera time syncing over bluetooth, especially if one of them has GPS
Allow the app to update the timezone database so we can have automatic adjustment based on both time and position.

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Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS M Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 85mm F1.8 USM +20 more

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OP PDE94301 • Forum Member • Posts: 60

Re: DST on R5

In reply to apersson850 • 2 weeks ago

apersson850 wrote:

The camera does both. Your images will have the time for the time zone you set as well as UTC.

I can't seem to find the time zone anywhere in my EXIF data.

I just took some test shots at similar times, where I manually changed the R5's clock to another city (and the clock moved ahead by the correct amount) but my RAW files in Windows (and EXIF data as shown in DPP4) are showing different (rather than the same) times, and there's no time zone info. anywhere as best as I can tell.

PDE94301's gear list:PDE94301's gear list

Canon EOS R5 Canon RF 50mm F1.2L USM Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM Canon RF 85mm F1.2L USM

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Mark B. • Forum Pro • Posts: 29,742

Re: DST on R5

In reply to Ali • 2 weeks ago

Ali wrote:

Even if they could do it thru built in tables and without a network connection, I am sure companies don’t want to be in the business of having to release firmware updates for DST adjustments, which do happen pretty often around the world. Especially firmware updates many years after the camera has been released.

One problem with having a built in table that may go stale is that your camera will change the time when you are not expecting it.

^^^^This. Too many variables; cities & localities seem to be changing their rules about DST frequently. Too much for camera companies to keep the firmware up to date. Far easier to let the user simply set local time and DST on or off.

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Mark B. • Forum Pro • Posts: 29,742

Re: DST on R5

In reply to PDE94301 • 2 weeks ago

PDE94301 wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

PDE94301 wrote:

I believe the answer is no, but can the R5 automatically switch its onboard clock 1 hour forward in March, and back again in November?

The only way that could happen is if the camera had a continuous cellular or internet connection.

Not sure I follow why that's the case. If you tell it what city's time zone you're in it should know when to flip the clock. For example, in '23 it would change time in LA time zone on March 12 & Nov 5, in London on Mar 26/Oct 29, in Tokyo it wouldn't change, etc. I think you could simply have a table of selectable cities in the firmware to automate this. If in the future if countries adopt or abandon DST then future firmware updates would capture that. That doesn't seem overly difficult to me.

Too many variables for camera companies to keep up with.

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Mark B. • Forum Pro • Posts: 29,742

Re: DST on R5

In reply to apersson850 • 2 weeks ago

apersson850 wrote:

The camera does both. Your images will have the time for the time zone you set as well as UTC.

Garmin is a company that does try to keep up with changing DST specifications. There's a massive amount of firmware updates released for many models just to cover that. So they know all about it.

Garmin devices have to be updated frequently enough that they are going to have the correct local time. Camera firmware is only updated when there's an update, and that's not every year and frequency becomes much less often as the camera ages.

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JohnMoyer • Regular Member • Posts: 354

Re: DST on R5

In reply to PDE94301 • 2 weeks ago

PDE94301 wrote:

apersson850 wrote:

The camera does both. Your images will have the time for the time zone you set as well as UTC.

I can't seem to find the time zone anywhere in my EXIF data.

I just took some test shots at similar times, where I manually changed the R5's clock to another city (and the clock moved ahead by the correct amount) but my RAW files in Windows (and EXIF data as shown in DPP4) are showing different (rather than the same) times, and there's no time zone info. anywhere as best as I can tell.

The exif and other metadata contains the time zone offset in multiple locations and contain the time in multiple locations including the time zone city in makernotes.

exiftool -G0:2 -a -"*date*" -"*time*" ../2023Jan17/IMG_2806.CR3

[File:Time] File Modification Date/Time : 2023:01:17 08:45:40-06:00

[File:Time] File Access Date/Time : 2023:01:17 17:44:50-06:00

[File:Time] File Inode Change Date/Time : 2023:01:17 17:44:46-06:00

[EXIF:Time] Modify Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39

[EXIF:Time] Date/Time Original : 2023:01:17 08:45:39

[EXIF:Time] Create Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39

[QuickTime:Time] Create Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39-06:00

[QuickTime:Time] Modify Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39-06:00

[QuickTime:Time] Track Create Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39-06:00

[QuickTime:Time] Track Modify Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39-06:00

[QuickTime:Time] Media Create Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39-06:00

[QuickTime:Time] Media Modify Date : 2023:01:17 08:45:39-06:00