Fujifilm xpro 4 expectations

ViMa wrote:

athensGA wrote:

ViMa wrote:

athensGA wrote:

Welcome to the forum. The xpro3 is my favorite camera of all time. Although I have academic interest in what Fuji decides for the 4 there’s probably not much that would move the needle for me personally. You likely know the 3 was somewhat controversial. Not long ago Fuji partnered with a controversial Japanese street photographer and when that went over like a lead balloon Fuji quickly severed the connection. So I think they probably have rabbit ears as a company and will tack back to conventional with the 4. Be advised that the xpro3/4 have been discussed quite a bit here, sometimes contentiously, so I’m also curious to see the forum’s reaction to another xpro3/4 topic. Thanks for putting yourself out there and contributing.

Are you referring to Tatsuo Suzuki?

Yes

I wouldn't exactly call him controversial. More that some Westerners got upset with how he acts and imposed their cultural views on Japanese society, as is their wont.

It was very disappointing to see how Fujifilm dealt with him.

Whether one likes his style or his photos (I find some of them stellar), he is extremely highly regarded by many, clearly including someone at Fujifilm who had made him an Xphotographer and chosen him for the ad.

Well apparently fuji DID find him controversial and there was heated debate about him at the time on this very forum. Like you I appreciate his work, am not bothered by his style, and thought fuji should have supported him.

gdanmitchell wrote:

I used the XPro2 for years and loved the camera. But I recently replaced mine with the XT5....

I've left out a ton of details explaining my thinking here... but I recently wrote up a quick article on it: Moving On: Fujifilm XPro2 to XT5.

I was with you until this:

"The only negative for some users might be the big while FUJIFILM lettering on the front of the camera. (I’ll put some black tape over mine eventually.)"

Please tell me this was a bit of a humor...

I’m not sure why you would think this is humour… Whilst I probably wouldn’t go as far as taping over logos, I do dislike tasteless splashing of manufacturers’ names all over their products (this also applies to labels on the outside of clothing).  I can sympathise with the author but I’m shallow enough to care about the appearance of my kit and don’t want sticky tape residues all over it.

Wolf's Head wrote:

I’m not sure why you would think this is humour… Whilst I probably wouldn’t go as far as taping over logos, I do dislike tasteless splashing of manufacturers’ names all over their products (this also applies to labels on the outside of clothing). I can sympathise with the author but I’m shallow enough to care about the appearance of my kit and don’t want sticky tape residues all over it.

If you use your camera you can't see its front and thus won't be bothered by the white Fujifilm logo!

gdanmitchell wrote:

biza43 wrote:

The big difference between FF and GFX comes from the lenses, as lenses for MF are normally better. Comparably, between APSC and FF, the difference comes from the lenses too...

That''s not quite the case. It isn't that the lenses are better. It is that a larger format has higher system resolution.

To explain, let's look at a theoretical case. Let's imagine a "perfect" lens on which the resolution is the same across the entire field of the lens. Let's say that (to use a familiar shorthand) it can resolve "y lines per millimeter."

If we put that lens on a full frame camera an image may resolve up to 36 times y line pairs across its width.

However, if we put that same exact lens on a miniMF 33x44 sensor camera it can resolve 44 times y line pairs across its width.

The second case — from the larger sensor alone, regardless of lens performance — shows how a larger format has the potential to produce higher system resolution with the same — or even lower! — lens performance.

It so happens that in addition to using a Fujifilm x-trans system I also use a 50MP full frame system for half of my photography. And I sometimes us a highly regarded medium format lens on that system. The resolution performance of that lens is definitely not better than the performance of my roughly equivalent FF lenses.

Make sense?

Not quite. The MF lenses are better, because it is easier to design, say, a f/4 lens for MF compared to a f/1.4 lens for APSC or FF. Off axis performance will be better. Some good reading here:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/format-size-and-image-quality/

Indeed - but I don’t like to be a free advertising hoarding!

Wolf's Head wrote:

Indeed - but I don’t like to be a free advertising hoarding!

Wow, do you look that good when you're out shooting ?   

Regards, P.

gdanmitchell wrote:

iso3400 wrote:

Nobody really talks about 'innovators' anymore. Especially in rangefinder type cameras. But the X-Pro series has always debuted as a classic innovative camera. A digital camera that also has real appeal for traditional photographers.

[snip]...Will Fuji be able to develop this extraordinary style for the X-Pro4? Why not a bold camera with a bit more development to give the series a clear identity?

I want to paraphrase the old cry: "The XPro is dead! Long live the XPro!"

I used the XPro2 for years and loved the camera. But I recently replaced mine with the XT5. I mainly use the system for street and travel photography (and occasionally a few other things) and my attitude toward these cameras has shifted, and I no longer think the XPro design has the value or utility that it had a few years ago.

I've left out a ton of details explaining my thinking here... but I recently wrote up a quick article on it: Moving On: Fujifilm XPro2 to XT5.

I could well end up being wrong, but I think there are some reasons to ask whether there actually will be a XPro4.

You’ve posted this article in more concise form several times recently - I’ve disagreed every time. I think you’re far too convinced that everyone’s reasons for buying the X-Pro previously were the same as yours, and that your preference (at this moment) for the XT5 is going to be everyone else’s preference too. Speaking personally, I’ve tried a few XT bodies and not gotten along with any of them, and that’s nothing to do with their EVF’s not being good enough, it’s simply that (a) I prefer the rangefinder shape and build of the X-Pro and (b) I prefer to have the option of an OVF over *any* EVF.

OVF vs EVF is about far more than resolution or refresh rates for me, it’s about being able to see the actual subject rather than a picture of the subject, and also being able to see the view naturally rather than seeing the camera focussing and exposing - an EVF can simply never give you that, not in the XT5 or any camera.

You also keep repeating factual inaccuracies about the X-Pro to bolster your case. You say it was always *the* flagship with the best performance and suggest it’s only now been usurped by the XH2S etc - but that ignores the fact that the X-Pro1 was significantly outperformed by the XT1 for much of its life, and the X-Pro2 was matched and in many ways beaten by the XT2 just a couple of months after its release, and the pricier XH1 even more so. Since the release of the XT1 in 2014 it’s *always* shared “flagship” status with other cameras, and nearly always trailed on performance and features too - most obviously in the AF stakes. You also keep saying that people bought the X-Pro2 out of distrust in EVFs, but it’s a fact that the earlier XT1’s EVF was excellent (I had one) and the XT2 swiftly beat that; I simply don’t believe that in 2016 there was still a significant contingent of buyers who didn’t think EVFs were good enough at what they do, it’s much more that some of us just actively enjoy OVFs and still do. That’s not because EVFs are or were “bad” (they’re very useful) but because they just don’t do the same thing.

Your argument to me seems very much like those who insist that film photography must be over because digital is so superior, nobody will ever want to buy vinyl again, the camera itself must surely be dead now that iPhone’s are so good… all of which ignores the fact that sloppy, messy, imperfect people don’t always follow the same logic and often make decisions based on heart over head. The X-Pro has always been pitched on those terms, and I expect Fuji to continue chasing that market, just as Leica do (another company making products which do not make ANY logical sense when stacked up next to your average MILC, and yet continue to prove very lucrative).

Oh, and as far your prediction goes, you might also want to note these words from senior Fujifilm managers in a recent interview - https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-managers-interview-talking-fujifilm-x-pro4-autofocus-fujifilm-x-t5-sales-5th-generation-gfx-x100v-demand-and-more/

• X-Pro4? Of course we can’t say when, but we haven’t forgotten the X-Pro series
• “However, we only release new products when necessary and useful. We don’t release new bodies just because we can. Especially for the X-Pro which is a very special device. For his successor, it has to make sense and really benefit users. Once these conditions are met, we will be able to launch a new X-Pro device.”

Doesn’t sound to me like they’ve given up on it, or no longer see its value.

Wolf's Head wrote:

I’m not sure why you would think this is humour… Whilst I probably wouldn’t go as far as taping over logos, I do dislike tasteless splashing of manufacturers’ names all over their products (this also applies to labels on the outside of clothing). I can sympathise with the author but I’m shallow enough to care about the appearance of my kit and don’t want sticky tape residues all over it.

Because people who make suggestions about taping over logos generally don't know anything about street photography or thieves.

...Or maybe they have a good sense of humor.

As for your "sticky residue/advertising" concerns, it's your camera and your fashion statement, so go for it.  Because honestly, it makes more sense than pretending a 1" piece of black tape makes you invisible.

sprouty115 wrote:

Wolf's Head wrote:

I’m not sure why you would think this is humour… Whilst I probably wouldn’t go as far as taping over logos, I do dislike tasteless splashing of manufacturers’ names all over their products (this also applies to labels on the outside of clothing). I can sympathise with the author but I’m shallow enough to care about the appearance of my kit and don’t want sticky tape residues all over it.

Because people who make suggestions about taping over logos generally don't know anything about street photography or thieves.

...Or maybe they have a good sense of humor.

As for your "sticky residue/advertising" concerns, it's your camera and your fashion statement, so go for it. Because honestly, it makes more sense than pretending a 1" piece of black tape makes you invisible.

Remember when they called the X-E1 the Sexy One?

Well the X-Pro has been the sexy one in recent years. What makes it sexy?

1. The mystery connected with the absence of a manufacturer's logo

2. The lack of a visible LCD on the back

3. The "film tab"

4. The increasingly rare ability to see your subject directly, through a clear glass window

All of these add to the mystery: What IS THAT camera? Is it film? How does it work? Who made it? Resulting in a quiet smile of satisfaction and a brief caressing of the sexy one.

Once you experience this, you get it.

For others, it remains a mystery. 😉😆

You took it to a weird place, but...

sprouty115 wrote:

You took it to a weird place, but...

Sometimes, we have to have a little over-the-top fun here. But there's a shred of truth underlying my absurd hyperbole

sprouty115 wrote:

gdanmitchell wrote:

I used the XPro2 for years and loved the camera. But I recently replaced mine with the XT5....

I've left out a ton of details explaining my thinking here... but I recently wrote up a quick article on it: Moving On: Fujifilm XPro2 to XT5.

I was with you until this:

"The only negative for some users might be the big while FUJIFILM lettering on the front of the camera. (I’ll put some black tape over mine eventually.)"

Please tell me this was a bit of a humor...

Henri Cartier-Bresson found that often times people would catch a flash of reflection off the chrome top of his Leica which would draw their attention to him.  He solved the problem by putting black electrical tape on the offending area of the camera.  It is not unheard of or even uncommon for street photography.  In his honor Leica removed the big red dot on their first monochrome M - known as the Henri in HCB's honor.  In fact none of the Leica monochrome (M or Q2)  cameras sport the red dot.

I can sure see that the large white lettering on the black body could grab someone's attention.

Most people just want an X1000v with an x  mount

MFiftysomething wrote:

Most people just want an X1000v with an x mount

I haven't heard of the X1000.

And I always find it comical when people invoke "most people" (as if they knew).

MFiftysomething wrote:

Most people just want an X1000v with an x mount

Some people want it to be that small, but it can’t be that small. I suspect the XP4 will the X100V’s rear screen I just hope it’s flush like the X100V instead of sticking out like the XT5. Style-wise, I’m not sure the featureless design of the X100V will work on a larger body, for example I think the X-Pro3’s top plate is less attractive than the X-Pro2.

I haven’t had an X-Pro for a couple of years, but for those who have both do you prefer the viewfinder lever which points up like the X100 or down like the XP?

MFiftysomething wrote:

Most people just want an X1000v with an x mount

It's always amusing to read statements that start with "most people."  I think you're on safe ground here if you simply express your own opinions and explain your rationale.  It's also useful to recognize that your view may well not be shared by many others.

Plus... what exactly is this x1000v you speak of?  Or, were you perhaps referring to this:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1109328-REG/sony_fdr_x1000v_4k_action_cam.html

If so... oops, wrong forum.  

xtm wrote:

Fuji shocks the world and makes the XPro4 full frame. New 35 1.2, 58 f1 and 105 1.2 are released alongside it. The XPro line becomes Fuji's full frame lineup going forward. In anticipation to a very long wait list, Fujifilm is reserving thousands of units for current XPro owners so they will not have to wait in line.

Worst business decision ever.

“We own the APSC segment AND the medium format one, let's kill them trying to compete with Sony and Canon with full frame...”

Yeah, that would be wise.

sniper5 wrote:

gdanmitchell wrote:

iso3400 wrote:

Nobody really talks about 'innovators' anymore. Especially in rangefinder type cameras. But the X-Pro series has always debuted as a classic innovative camera. A digital camera that also has real appeal for traditional photographers.

[snip]...Will Fuji be able to develop this extraordinary style for the X-Pro4? Why not a bold camera with a bit more development to give the series a clear identity?

I want to paraphrase the old cry: "The XPro is dead! Long live the XPro!"

I used the XPro2 for years and loved the camera. But I recently replaced mine with the XT5. I mainly use the system for street and travel photography (and occasionally a few other things) and my attitude toward these cameras has shifted, and I no longer think the XPro design has the value or utility that it had a few years ago.

I've left out a ton of details explaining my thinking here... but I recently wrote up a quick article on it: Moving On: Fujifilm XPro2 to XT5.

I could well end up being wrong, but I think there are some reasons to ask whether there actually will be a XPro4.

I read your article. I understand your perspective and your motivation to exchange your XPro2 with a XT5.

But I think that most XPro buyers and holders in the past and in the future have a totally different motivation why they bought and will buy XPro cameras.

No matter how good a future EVF in a future Xpro will be, I still want to have this old school OVF.

No matter how performant future XT models will be, I want to have a rangefinder style model. And the XE line does not give me the same pleasure, no matter how many MP the EVF has..

If Fuji would stop with the classic EVF/OVF VF in future XPro models or would stop to offer a XPro 4, I would not switch to the XE line, I would stick with my Panasonic Lumix GX9 MFT system and sell my Fuji system.

The XPro was the only reason why I started with Fuji X and why I am still with Fuji X. Taking this away will delete the reason for me to use Fuji X.

The differences between MFT, APS-C and FF are not that big. For my use case not important at all. I have a Nikon Z, Lumix LMount, Fuji X and MFT system. Why should I stick with Fuji, if they do only the same stuff with their bodies like everyone else?

There is no unique selling point anymore with Fuji X without a real XPro.

Fuji lenses become only bigger and heavier. My Sigma LMount FF lenses are often smaller and lighter.

A purely EVF rangefinder style I can also have with MFT. MFT is smaller and lighter. So what's the selling point of an XE line vs.

If Fuji does not make an X-Pro4 why do you need to sell your current Fuji gear?

The GX9 is not so different than an X-E4.