R5 weird "stuttering lines" shutter

IMHO that's the effect of alight frequency light - which could well be due to your household type LED lamps as they will flicker with high frequency. Sure you didn't use fully electronic shutter?

Karl Petersson wrote:

I am not sure if I am doing someting wrong or just being stupid.

I did some shoots at a restaurant and did a few people walking past the camera shoots and having them blurry with a slow shutter.
In both these cases it is 800 iso a fstopp 3,2 and the shutter is 1/13 and 1/15

On the 1/15 I get this stuttering lines and the 1/13 i am getting a completly normal blur. A later shoot at 1600 iso, f2,8, 1/40 I am getting the same effect.

I am using electronic 1st curtain and the anti flicker is on.

Can anyone tell me what might be the setting I am doing wrong and what I should do to get "normal"blur rather then this kind of line blur or whatever to call it.

all are done with RF 24-70 2,8

"stuttering" lines 1/15 of a sec

I count 8 stutters during the 1/15 shutter speed which equates to 120 hz strobe of the room lights.

No I am sure it was Elec. 1st-curtain. It might be the led thing since there are tons of Led Edison bulbs in this place.

But should I then go fully mechanical to avoid this flickering?

But I did think the Anti-Flicker shoot enabled should deal with this kind of thing.

TrackDayLT4 wrote:

Karl Petersson wrote:

I am not sure if I am doing someting wrong or just being stupid.

I did some shoots at a restaurant and did a few people walking past the camera shoots and having them blurry with a slow shutter.
In both these cases it is 800 iso a fstopp 3,2 and the shutter is 1/13 and 1/15

On the 1/15 I get this stuttering lines and the 1/13 i am getting a completly normal blur. A later shoot at 1600 iso, f2,8, 1/40 I am getting the same effect.

I am using electronic 1st curtain and the anti flicker is on.

Can anyone tell me what might be the setting I am doing wrong and what I should do to get "normal"blur rather then this kind of line blur or whatever to call it.

all are done with RF 24-70 2,8

"stuttering" lines 1/15 of a sec

I count 8 stutters during the 1/15 shutter speed which equates to 120 hz strobe of the room lights.

That figures; it's twice the US mains frequency, which is what you'd expect from compact fluorescent bulbs or LEDs feed through a simple rectifier. (Is Iceland 50Hz or 60Hz AC?)  There's nothing you can do about that with any shutter setting. The anti-flicker setting just ensures that, in continuous shooting, the shutter opens at the same phase of the brightness cycle, so it won't affect exposures that, like yours, are longer than the mains frequency.

Thanks for the answer, so its basically damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Somedays I miss those old tungstens lights but then I remember the heat.

With anti flicker does it require a particular shooting mode? Does it operate for single shutter or only continuous?

Karl Petersson wrote:

Thanks for the answer, so its basically damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Somedays I miss those old tungstens lights but then I remember the heat.

You need a continuous light source to achieve what you were trying to do. I've just tried with my EOS R in silent shutter (i.e., ES) mode, my hand moving across a ⅛s exposure lit by my domestic room light (a 13W 2700K Philips domestic LED bulb) and that didn't look too bad. That bulb takes ½s or so for its phosphors to stop glowing when it's switched off, which will even out its light output. There were continuous striations parallel to the direction of travel, but these also appeared with EFCS and when using both curtains, and I got similar striations using a halogen bulb torch for lighting, so I don't think they're from the LED bulb.

Sittatunga wrote:

Karl Petersson wrote:

Thanks for the answer, so its basically damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Somedays I miss those old tungstens lights but then I remember the heat.

You need a continuous light source to achieve what you were trying to do. I've just tried with my EOS R in silent shutter (i.e., ES) mode, my hand moving across a ⅛s exposure lit by my domestic room light (a 13W 2700K Philips domestic LED bulb) and that didn't look too bad. That bulb takes ½s or so for its phosphors to stop glowing when it's switched off, which will even out its light output. There were continuous striations parallel to the direction of travel, but these also appeared with EFCS and when using both curtains, and I got similar striations using a halogen bulb torch for lighting, so I don't think they're from the LED bulb.

Is the 0.5s decay what occurs with that typical type of bulb? I recall reading about luminophore as a coating Philips were using but I don't recall the luminous decay time after the current is switched off. Interesting stuff.

I think most of our lamps are dimmable so the driver frequency is much higher.

Would you know if Philips have this in an article or data sheet?

Ephemeris wrote:

With anti flicker does it require a particular shooting mode? Does it operate for single shutter or only continuous?

From the EOS R advanced users guide,

Reducing Flicker
If you shoot an image with a fast shutter speed under a light source such as fluorescent light, the blinking of the light source causes flicker and the image may be vertically unevenly exposed. If continuous shooting is used under these conditions, uneven exposures or colors across the images may result. This feature enables the camera to detect the flickering frequency and take pictures when exposure and colors are less affected by flickering.

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

With anti flicker does it require a particular shooting mode? Does it operate for single shutter or only continuous?

From the EOS R advanced users guide,

Reducing Flicker
If you shoot an image with a fast shutter speed under a light source such as fluorescent light, the blinking of the light source causes flicker and the image may be vertically unevenly exposed. If continuous shooting is used under these conditions, uneven exposures or colors across the images may result. This feature enables the camera to detect the flickering frequency and take pictures when exposure and colors are less affected by flickering.

Hi. Thanks for the information from the manual. The problem is that it's never been so clear to me if it works for single shot, low speed, high speed continuous.

Ephemeris wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Karl Petersson wrote:

Thanks for the answer, so its basically damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Somedays I miss those old tungstens lights but then I remember the heat.

You need a continuous light source to achieve what you were trying to do. I've just tried with my EOS R in silent shutter (i.e., ES) mode, my hand moving across a ⅛s exposure lit by my domestic room light (a 13W 2700K Philips domestic LED bulb) and that didn't look too bad. That bulb takes ½s or so for its phosphors to stop glowing when it's switched off, which will even out its light output. There were continuous striations parallel to the direction of travel, but these also appeared with EFCS and when using both curtains, and I got similar striations using a halogen bulb torch for lighting, so I don't think they're from the LED bulb.

Is the 0.5s decay what occurs with that typical type of bulb? I recall reading about luminophore as a coating Philips were using but I don't recall the luminous decay time after the current is switched off. Interesting stuff.

I think most of our lamps are dimmable so the driver frequency is much higher.

Would you know if Philips have this in an article or data sheet?

This is just my observation, of my own domestic lighting.  I don't think that particular bulb is dimmable, and I certainly wouldn't try that sort of picture under dimmed domestic lighting anyway, that's just asking for trouble.  Use a lower powered bulb or move further away from it.  Preferably use a photographic lighting panel, but that costs money.

Ephemeris wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

With anti flicker does it require a particular shooting mode? Does it operate for single shutter or only continuous?

From the EOS R advanced users guide,

Reducing Flicker
If you shoot an image with a fast shutter speed under a light source such as fluorescent light, the blinking of the light source causes flicker and the image may be vertically unevenly exposed. If continuous shooting is used under these conditions, uneven exposures or colors across the images may result. This feature enables the camera to detect the flickering frequency and take pictures when exposure and colors are less affected by flickering.

Hi. Thanks for the information from the manual. The problem is that it's never been so clear to me if it works for single shot, low speed, high speed continuous.

Yes.

It can only defect 120Hz and 100Hz (2x American and rest of the world AC mains frequencies) and will delay the shutter release until the lighting is as even as possible during the exposure, so you will get uneven timing intervals in continuous, a slight delay in single shot and possibly different colour balances between shots in a sequence.  But at least the brightness will be as consistent as the camera can make it.

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Karl Petersson wrote:

Thanks for the answer, so its basically damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Somedays I miss those old tungstens lights but then I remember the heat.

You need a continuous light source to achieve what you were trying to do. I've just tried with my EOS R in silent shutter (i.e., ES) mode, my hand moving across a ⅛s exposure lit by my domestic room light (a 13W 2700K Philips domestic LED bulb) and that didn't look too bad. That bulb takes ½s or so for its phosphors to stop glowing when it's switched off, which will even out its light output. There were continuous striations parallel to the direction of travel, but these also appeared with EFCS and when using both curtains, and I got similar striations using a halogen bulb torch for lighting, so I don't think they're from the LED bulb.

Is the 0.5s decay what occurs with that typical type of bulb? I recall reading about luminophore as a coating Philips were using but I don't recall the luminous decay time after the current is switched off. Interesting stuff.

I think most of our lamps are dimmable so the driver frequency is much higher.

Would you know if Philips have this in an article or data sheet?

This is just my observation, of my own domestic lighting. I don't think that particular bulb is dimmable, and I certainly wouldn't try that sort of picture under dimmed domestic lighting anyway, that's just asking for trouble. Use a lower powered bulb or move further away from it. Preferably use a photographic lighting panel, but that costs money.

I understand. The point of mentioning dimmable LED lamps, which are what we have throughout is that they are not driven at a multiple of the mains frequency. So banding is likely to not occur in the first instance. The bulbs can be used with a standard on/off light switch. May be worth a try?

It's not going to cost you anything to try.   Let us all know how you get on, please.

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

With anti flicker does it require a particular shooting mode? Does it operate for single shutter or only continuous?

From the EOS R advanced users guide,

Reducing Flicker
If you shoot an image with a fast shutter speed under a light source such as fluorescent light, the blinking of the light source causes flicker and the image may be vertically unevenly exposed. If continuous shooting is used under these conditions, uneven exposures or colors across the images may result. This feature enables the camera to detect the flickering frequency and take pictures when exposure and colors are less affected by flickering.

Hi. Thanks for the information from the manual. The problem is that it's never been so clear to me if it works for single shot, low speed, high speed continuous.

Yes.

It can only defect 120Hz and 100Hz (2x American and rest of the world AC mains frequencies) and will delay the shutter release until the lighting is as even as possible during the exposure, so you will get uneven timing intervals in continuous, a slight delay in single shot and possibly different colour balances between shots in a sequence. But at least the brightness will be as consistent as the camera can make it.

Ah thank you for the explanation that makes a lot more sense.

Ephemeris wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

Sittatunga wrote:

Ephemeris wrote:

With anti flicker does it require a particular shooting mode? Does it operate for single shutter or only continuous?

From the EOS R advanced users guide,

Reducing Flicker
If you shoot an image with a fast shutter speed under a light source such as fluorescent light, the blinking of the light source causes flicker and the image may be vertically unevenly exposed. If continuous shooting is used under these conditions, uneven exposures or colors across the images may result. This feature enables the camera to detect the flickering frequency and take pictures when exposure and colors are less affected by flickering.

Hi. Thanks for the information from the manual. The problem is that it's never been so clear to me if it works for single shot, low speed, high speed continuous.

Yes.

It can only defect 120Hz and 100Hz (2x American and rest of the world AC mains frequencies) and will delay the shutter release until the lighting is as even as possible during the exposure, so you will get uneven timing intervals in continuous, a slight delay in single shot and possibly different colour balances between shots in a sequence. But at least the brightness will be as consistent as the camera can make it.

Ah thank you for the explanation that makes a lot more sense.

I was looking for some information in the optical decay time of white household LED lamps and came across this.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/ssl/articles/flicker-review-temporal-light-modulation-stimulus-responses-and-measures&ved=2ahUKEwiw-PXagbL9AhVEm1wKHcPZBe8QFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0j9o96c4vrvkcuTCAVAJ8o

It seems you have a few misunderstandings of what happens with LED when they are dimmed. When dimmed the LED electronics shorten the pulses that the LED is driven. It no longer flickers with the mains frequency but rather a much higher frequency. You are using a slow shutter speed, that encompasses several full flicker cycles - so the anti flicker solution of the camera does nothing for you (it is a solution for shutter speeds faster than the flicker pulse length).  The problem you see is due to subject movement during the exposure, you get  the subject lit in different positions as the light goes through several pulses.

charlyw64 wrote:

It seems you have a few misunderstandings of what happens with LED when they are dimmed. When dimmed the LED electronics shorten the pulses that the LED is driven. It no longer flickers with the mains frequency but rather a much higher frequency. You are using a slow shutter speed, that encompasses several full flicker cycles - so the anti flicker solution of the camera does nothing for you (it is a solution for shutter speeds faster than the flicker pulse length). The problem you see is due to subject movement during the exposure, you get the subject lit in different positions as the light goes through several pulses.

Who is this replying to sorry Charlyw?

My personal point (if it is relavant) is that at least some mains LED lamps capable of being dimmed are not driven at a mains multiple frequency when on an effective 100% duty.

If we monitor the current to the LED or LED array we will see this looks continuous unless we start to look at much shorter time windows.

If we look at some none dimmable we can see at the duty cycle we call ON, that the current is modulated with a frequency related to that of the mains current.

What then occurs optically is different due to the luminophore.

Quite a few articles on the effects of light Flickr on human health and also some regulations / guidance.