Mind Blown

Good morning!

Today is day one after I took my newly acquired DP2M out for a photo walk. The biggest disappointment after I looked at the images is why didn't this sensor take off? Holy cow, the detail and color is just stunning! I took my trusty Fuji X100V with me and took each shot twice with the same settings. The FOV was different, but the DP2M made the Fuji images look bad. Until this walk, the X100V walked on water to me. It is still a better all around camera, but when the DP2M is in the right situation, it is sooo much better.

Made me immediately want to find and buy the DP1M and DP3M. I tried doing some sleuthing in Reddit, but it seems like no one there is using the Foveon cameras. I found this forum and have been reading for the past 30 minutes.

What is the future? I know Sigma owns the technology, and their most recent camera had a CFA sensor. Rumors were abound last year of a full-frame Foveon sensor, but with the SD1 MSRP of $10K, any new sensor will likely be out of reach. Are the Merrills the best cameras out there for the "poor man's" Foveon?

I still just amazed. I have an Olympus E-M1mkIII on the way (finally found a used one at a reasonable price) that I bought earlier this weekend and just feel I will be disappointed if I bring them out on the same shot.

Again, this is like the Beta vs VHS battle of the 80's. Beta was the clear winner in all cases, except for recording length, and lost due to licensing issues (Sony being Sony). Is Foveon the same?

I'm so conflicted. Such stunning images, but from an 11 year old camera.

I also owned the Fuji X100V until recently, but the level of detail always seemed just mediocre despite the improved lens in that that latest version. Not a premium camera output. I guess I am spoiled by my dp3 Quattro and can only tolerate the Bayer sensor in my smartphone thanks to its pocketability.

Thanks for all of the insights.  You are right, developing a camera without a distinct profit model was not something I considered.  The creativity and risk that Sigma undertook to create these cameras is respectful, especially given when they were created.

Yesterday, and the images I created, has shown that there is more out there.  Trying to manage the natural GAS instinct, but I have instantly fallen for this "look".  I had been dabbling in film for the last few years, originally with a Rolleiflex and now with some Minolta film bodies (X-370 and X-700).  I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look.  I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors.  In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?  Eyes peeled for DP1M...

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Eyes peeled for DP1M...

Yep, had one for a while ... very good but lens not quite up to my DP2M ...

TommyNeutron wrote:

Good morning!

Today is day one after I took my newly acquired DP2M out for a photo walk. The biggest disappointment after I looked at the images is why didn't this sensor take off? Holy cow, the detail and color is just stunning! I took my trusty Fuji X100V with me and took each shot twice with the same settings. The FOV was different, but the DP2M made the Fuji images look bad. Until this walk, the X100V walked on water to me. It is still a better all around camera, but when the DP2M is in the right situation, it is sooo much better.

Made me immediately want to find and buy the DP1M and DP3M. I tried doing some sleuthing in Reddit, but it seems like no one there is using the Foveon cameras. I found this forum and have been reading for the past 30 minutes.

What is the future? I know Sigma owns the technology, and their most recent camera had a CFA sensor. Rumors were abound last year of a full-frame Foveon sensor, but with the SD1 MSRP of $10K, any new sensor will likely be out of reach. Are the Merrills the best cameras out there for the "poor man's" Foveon?

Forget about the SD1 MRSP of $10K.

The SD1 Merrill launch price was $1900 and in perfect conditions ones can be found for around $900.00 now. It is a very versatile camera that can be used at High, Medium & Low resolutions to suit whatever is required in different circumstances.

I look forward to the launch of the Full Frame X3 sensor being worked on for some time but honestly if it never happens the SD1 Merrill or my sd Quattros are plenty good enough for almost any of my photography.  For the rest I use a Sony A7 II on which I can use all my Sigma SA lenses. A good partnership.

S

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

Yes, I used low res most of the time also with the SD1M.

Never used medium because it is interpolated in SPP, not binned medium-size on-sensor. And that is because the Foveon can not bin fractional amounts.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3040692

Thanks Erik, the original Foveon article is gone.

Hi I have Fuji 24M pixel cameras as well as a DP1M and an SD1.

I find the RAW processor makes a huge difference when it comes to Fuji camera, Capture 1 is the preferred raw processor.  Did you shoot Raw or JPG?  What processor do you use?

Can you post images?

tohereknowswhen wrote:

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

True and very useful but there's still no way to bypass the sharpening/microcontrast boost from SPP for Merrill files.

My personal experience with Merrill low-res in SPP 5.5.3 was that default sharpness was not overly boosted; therefore no need to "bypass" it.

That alone makes the [Quattro] more useful to me. Quattro also supports low-res raws, btw.

Edit: going into monochrome mode does bypass it. But thats quite limiting.

I'm not certain that the Quattro low-res was accomplished by on-chip binning as opposed to the previous SD camera sensors ...

tohereknowswhen wrote:

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

True and very useful but there's still no way to bypass the sharpening/microcontrast boost from SPP for Merrill files.

I think a setting of -2.0 bypasses all the sharpening, At least there are no halos at that setting. If you want, you can save a TIFF file and sharpen it with some other program, or not at all.

Don

That alone makes the quattro more useful to me. Quattro also supports low-res raws btw.

Edit: going into monochrome mode does bypass it. But that's quite limiting.

D Cox wrote:

tohereknowswhen wrote:

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

True and very useful but there's still no way to bypass the sharpening/microcontrast boost from SPP for Merrill files.

I think a setting of -2.0 bypasses all the sharpening,

Sorry, Don, but I find it rather a pity that this lore persists in this Forum.

Firstly, the term "bypass" implies that something is de-activated.

Secondly, I have show here with slant-edge testing by QuickMTF that -2.0 gives less than "neutral" sharpness, i.e. it softens the output.

At least there are no halos at that setting.

Yep, and now we know why ...

If you want, you can save a TIFF file and sharpen it with some other program, or not at all.

Don

Hi Tommy, and welcome to the world of Sigma cameras. I'm glad to see you added some equipment to your gear list here, and I hope to see some of your photos posted in your gallery too.

I see you're a Pentax shooter, as well as a Fuji shooter. I too have other brands of cameras. Still, I love the quality of images from the Sigma cameras best. In the future though, I plan to get a Fuji X-H2. Why? Because it looks to be so versatile, and the image quality should be at least close to what I can get from a similar sized Foveon sensor. Also, even though the performance will surely be lacking, when compared to my full-frame Nikon D810, the Fuji should be able to do high-ISO photography much better than a Sigma camera with a Foveon sensor in it, like a Merrill or a Quattro. Add to that the amazing IBIS, excellent articulating tilt screen, and the ability to shoot 8K video in a camera that's priced under $2,000, and to me it's a no-brainer. I mean I'm already a multi-system photographer, right? What's another body and two or three more lenses? It'll give me the ability to do stuff that I just can't do right now.

As far as the future of Sigma cameras goes, I believe we will see Foveon sensors in new Sigma cameras in the future, though it appears that they won't be called Foveon anymore. They won't dominate Sigma's camera offerings either, since Sigma now makes cameras with CFA sensors now too (just like every other camera company). Foveon was never mainstream, and it appears it never will be, but I think it will make sense for Sigma to continue making them in order to differentiate Sigma from other L mount camera companies, and to help differentiate L mount from other mounts (like Nikon's Z mount, Canon's R mount, and Sony's E mount). In fact, I think Panasonic and Leica would be smart to get involved with Foveon sensor development, if Sigma will allow that, and help fund future three-layer sensors, because of how it will help L mount succeed as a mount of variety . . . not just of lenses, but of cameras and technologies too.

Foveon vs CFA is nothing like Betamax vs VHS. Betamax had a huge, industry leader behind it, but Sony made the mistake Apple made many years ago, and refused to make their format an industry standard by licensung the technology cheaply (or for free) to competitors. Instead the bulk of the industry made VHS compatible products, which brought down prices of VHS players, which in turn increased the demand for VHS tapes, making VHS the dominant player. Foveon never had a significant place in the camera market, and was never a big player. It appears it never will . . . unless some new design gives it an edge in the future.

xpatUSA wrote:

D Cox wrote:

tohereknowswhen wrote:

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

True and very useful but there's still no way to bypass the sharpening/microcontrast boost from SPP for Merrill files.

I think a setting of -2.0 bypasses all the sharpening,

Sorry, Don, but I find it rather a pity that this lore persists in this Forum.

Firstly, the term "bypass" implies that something is de-activated.

Secondly, I have show here with slant-edge testing by QuickMTF that -2.0 gives less than "neutral" sharpness, i.e. it softens the output.

Do you know what value on that slider would correspond to "neutral" per MTF, xpat?

-2 looks under-sharpened to me, kinda like default film scan is.

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

D Cox wrote:

tohereknowswhen wrote:

Stillton wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

TommyNeutron wrote:

... I liked film for the discipline and the way the images look. I think that Foveon, for me, may be the digital film equivalent.

I've read on these boards and elsewhere, that the Quattro sensor is good, but different than the Merrill sensors. In your opinion(s), is the SD Quattro the last, best Foveon based camera, or do the Merrill's reign supreme?

Neither one, although I've never used a Quattro but it uses interpolation to produce the final image; and I have no need for anything "bigger" than my 1920x1200px 24" monitor and I don't print.

So it is that I've ended up with just a 3.4MP SD9 after buying and selling a good few Sigma/Foveon cameras - see my gear list.

Dp1, 2, 3 Merrills can downsize RAW as well. It natively supports Raw full, RAW medium, and RAW low resolution.

True and very useful but there's still no way to bypass the sharpening/microcontrast boost from SPP for Merrill files.

I think a setting of -2.0 bypasses all the sharpening,

Sorry, Don, but I find it rather a pity that this lore persists in this Forum.

Firstly, the term "bypass" implies that something is de-activated.

Secondly, I have show here with slant-edge testing by QuickMTF that -2.0 gives less than "neutral" sharpness, i.e. it softens the output.

Do you know what value on that slider would correspond to "neutral" per MTF, xpat?

In spite of that elusive "one size fits all" value, I found that it varies from model to model and on the SD's from lens to lens. On my SD1 with the17-50mm f/2.8 lens, -0.7 was about right for most shots.

-2 looks under-sharpened to me, kinda like default film scan is.

Agreed.

Thanks to all who have replied and welcomed me to the forum!

Yes, I am a multi-system shooter, and one who likes the underdogs. The K-1 is still an amazing camera, now 7 years from when I bought it new. But, it is an anchor/tank and along with the lenses are not suitable for me anymore for long walks. The K-1 will never leave my ownership though. I have the beautiful prime limited trinity and just love that camera. But it is DSLR, heavy and the lenses are big.

I also have the Fuji, because it is great as a family camera. It just takes great pictures, effortlessly. The leaf shutter, built in ND, good ISO performance and a flash that always knows how much light to add make the camera what it is.

Now enter the new kid (for me), the DP2M. I took a chance on a for sale ad, and am really glad I did. Something new for me, even though you all have been making great images with them for years. AND, I have a used E-M1 mkIII on the way. It, along with the DP2M, will be my travel / hobby cameras. When I am making images for me, and not for family.

DP2M, F5.6, 13s, ISO100

DP2M F7.1, 1/800, ISO200.  Pushed pretty hard to recover the detail in the mountain.

Thank you