The next Foveon camera?

Dear Sigma Foveon sensor fans and connoisseurs.

I often browse the forums here, and on the Canon R forum I come across this picture. So this is not my photo, the creators' names are at the bottom right. But you should definitely take a look at this photo in full size, at 100% view.

When you then see what the future Full Frame Foveon sensor has to contend with ...
The resolution, the dynamic range, the detail in the shadows, the colour reproduction ... Ok, this image has been edited a lot with DxO and Photoshop, and it's also just a jpeg.

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ, the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

The prices for this Canon R5 + a couple of good L lenses are incredibly expensive though, and I will never and cannot afford them.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Jozef

Is it a photography, an image, or is it "PHOTOSHOP" !?!

…

Jozef M wrote:

Dear Sigma Foveon sensor fans and connoisseurs.

I often browse the forums here, and on the Canon R forum I come across this picture. So this is not my photo, the creators' names are at the bottom right. But you should definitely take a look at this photo in full size, at 100% view.

When you then see what the future Full Frame Foveon sensor has to contend with ...
The resolution, the dynamic range, the detail in the shadows, the colour reproduction ... Ok, this image has been edited a lot with DxO and Photoshop, and it's also just a jpeg.

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ, the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

The prices for this Canon R5 + a couple of good L lenses are incredibly expensive though, and I will never and cannot afford them.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Jozef

Jozef,

I think you are expressing your own personal view of things.

You are not CEO Yamaki and I have no doubt that he has a much more positive outlook on future developments of the FF X3 sensor and it remains to be seen if his positivity will bear fruit or not.  One way or the other I doubt that his courage will sink into his shoes.

I think it is very clear that he and his father before him have acted logically, rationally and planfully and with serious responsibility to his employees and will continue to do so into the future FF X3F sensor or not.

It is my opinion that the FF X3F will be launched only if Kazuto Yamaki is satisfied that it can stand up to serious and severe scrutiny.

Time will tell.

S

… Josef: It is an attractive image. Though, it is closer to a processed graphic image than an authentic rendering of the scene. It is a good example of the “candy coated” Bayer images that we have come to expect. It would sell a lot of jigsaw puzzles.

Jozef M wrote:

Dear Sigma Foveon sensor fans and connoisseurs.

I often browse the forums here, and on the Canon R forum I come across this picture. So this is not my photo, the creators' names are at the bottom right. But you should definitely take a look at this photo in full size, at 100% view.

When you then see what the future Full Frame Foveon sensor has to contend with ...
The resolution, the dynamic range, the detail in the shadows, the colour reproduction ... Ok, this image has been edited a lot with DxO and Photoshop, and it's also just a jpeg.

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ, the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

The prices for this Canon R5 + a couple of good L lenses are incredibly expensive though, and I will never and cannot afford them.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Jozef

What do I think?

I think you're just being negative Jozef.

Scottelly wrote:

Jozef M wrote:

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ, the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Jozef

What do I think?

I think you're just being negative Jozef.

I really don't think I am being negative, if one thinks logically and rationally, one cannot conclude otherwise, can one?
I don't think one can expect a FF Foveon sensor camera in the first few years to come.

Of course, I would also like to see it differently.

Jozef

Le Camerique wrote:

The R5 is a nice camera, no doubt. But I would still prefer a new Foveon. Even an old DP2 Merrill if I'm being honest.

The look is different, period.

The overall look and tonality of the Merrill sensor, which you see and like on your monitor, disappears when you print out photos, or use them in print for books and magazines.

That's where the Bayer sensors win with their greater ease of use, dynamic range, and use of higher iso values. No Foveon sensor camera can compete with that.

And 99% of website viewers give a darn about the image quality of pictures on the internet. Sigma is a business, it has to make a profit to survive. I don't think Sigma is going to launch yet another niche camera.
Regret...

Sure the image shown has good detail. High detail is a feature of Foveon, but not the only purpose of it. I loved the colors, tonality and overall look from my old Merrill.

Jozef

Iain G Foulds wrote:

… Josef: It is an attractive image. Though, it is closer to a processed graphic image than an authentic rendering of the scene. It is a good example of the “candy coated” Bayer images that we have come to expect. It would sell a lot of jigsaw puzzles.

Of course, you can use the raw file of this photo to adjust the colours and white balance to match the original colours in nature. This goes without saying, that's not the point.

Jozef

Jozef M wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

Jozef M wrote:

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ, the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Jozef

What do I think?

I think you're just being negative Jozef.

I really don't think I am being negative, if one thinks logically and rationally, one cannot conclude otherwise, can one?
I don't think one can expect a FF Foveon sensor camera in the first few years to come.

Of course, I would also like to see it differently.

Jozef

Well I believe Mr. Yamaki means what he says about the development of the new sensor, and I don't think they would continue working on it if they have no plans to make the FFF. Will it be made and released in 2023? I don't know, but I believe it's possible. Then again, I though SpaceX would get a Starship into orbit in 2022, but obviously that didn't happen.

Jozef M wrote:

Le Camerique wrote:

The R5 is a nice camera, no doubt. But I would still prefer a new Foveon. Even an old DP2 Merrill if I'm being honest.

The look is different, period.

The overall look and tonality of the Merrill sensor, which you see and like on your monitor, disappears when you print out photos, or use them in print for books and magazines.

That's where the Bayer sensors win with their greater ease of use, dynamic range, and use of higher iso values. No Foveon sensor camera can compete with that.

And 99% of website viewers give a darn about the image quality of pictures on the internet. Sigma is a business, it has to make a profit to survive. I don't think Sigma is going to launch yet another niche camera.
Regret...

I think that you are off base here. Niche cameras are what sigma has been making all along. Why would they stop doing that, and go up against the likes of Sony, Canon, and Panasonic? Do you really think Sigma can make a 24 MP, full-frame camera that's better than Panasonic's new S5 II?

Sigma has a good position with their fp line, which is a line of niche cameras, as you surely know. Those little cameras probably sell better than any other cameras they have ever sold before (but maybe not, because they're so much more expensive than the SD Quattro).

I can imagine Sigma making the FFF, and selling them slowly for about $3,000 each . . . for a long time. I can imagine them following that up with an fp T (three-layer), using the same sensor, and selling that camera for about the same price. Then I can imagine they might make a more affordable camera, with an APS-C sensor that has 20 MP per layer (though I bet it will be much more expensive than the SD Quattro). Then, after they do that I can imagine them stepping up the resolution of their full-frame offerings by "quatrifying" the FFF, updating the electronics with a faster processor and a faster memory card slot, doubling the buffer memory, improving the EVF, etc. I think one day the switch to L mount will be a thing of the distant past, and Sigma will still be making three-layer sensors, because that will be one of the niches which will make L mount unique.

BTW, would you agree that Leica makes niche cameras? If so, do you think Leica just doesn't know what they're doing?

Sure the image shown has good detail. High detail is a feature of Foveon, but not the only purpose of it. I loved the colors, tonality and overall look from my old Merrill.

Jozef

Jozef M wrote:

Dear Sigma Foveon sensor fans and connoisseurs.

I often browse the forums here, and on the Canon R forum I come across this picture. So this is not my photo, the creators' names are at the bottom right. But you should definitely take a look at this photo in full size, at 100% view.

When you then see what the future Full Frame Foveon sensor has to contend with ...
The resolution, the dynamic range, the detail in the shadows, the colour reproduction ... Ok, this image has been edited a lot with DxO and Photoshop, and it's also just a jpeg.

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ,

Yet you just discounted the iq of this pic as you acknowledged that it has been greatly edited and is a jpeg.  Why would the ceo ever use this pic to conclude anything about the potential of a full frame foveon sensor?

the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

Is Sigma in such a race?  Is that their mission?  Is their such a thing as absolute iq?

The prices for this Canon R5 + a couple of good L lenses are incredibly expensive though, and I will never and cannot afford them.

Don't sell yourself short.  And don't overlook the used market.  In ten years, this gear will be ancient history.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Sigma makes niche cameras.  It seems to me to be more a labor of love than an effort to maximize profit.  Plus, I don't know how employees will benefit financially from discontinuing a line of cameras.  Their jobs will be discontinued as well.

I didn't even know planfullly is a word. My spellcheck didn't either as it immediately changed it to playful.

I have no skin in this game.  I don't own a Sigma camera and likely will never.  They lost the battle for market domination (more important than IQ supremacy for their bottom line) of the foveon sensor long ago.  It's not like making film cameras in this day and age.  More like making laser discs.

This is no slam at Sigma cameras or their appreciative consumers.  My respect for individual photographers rests on their output, not the equipment they use to produce it. I can even appreciate photos made with Canon cameras (eek!).

I am not big on making predictions about camera company viability. I have no idea what amalgam of factors the CEO is using to make his decisions.  One obstacle is likely practical: the availability of chips.  Sony discontinued certain cameras because that allows them to focus production on the more profitable lines of cameras.  Plus, experimentation often leads to failure.  Sigma may not be successful in moving from idea to actuality. Happens.

Jozef

DMillier wrote:

Jozef M wrote:

Le Camerique wrote:

The R5 is a nice camera, no doubt. But I would still prefer a new Foveon. Even an old DP2 Merrill if I'm being honest.

The look is different, period.

The overall look and tonality of the Merrill sensor, which you see and like on your monitor, disappears when you print out photos, or use them in print for books and magazines.

That's where the Bayer sensors win with their greater ease of use, dynamic range, and use of higher iso values. No Foveon sensor camera can compete with that.

And 99% of website viewers give a darn about the image quality of pictures on the internet. Sigma is a business, it has to make a profit to survive. I don't think Sigma is going to launch yet another niche camera.
Regret...

Sure the image shown has good detail. High detail is a feature of Foveon, but not the only purpose of it. I loved the colors, tonality and overall look from my old Merrill.

Jozef

One should never predict the downfall of a brand, it's not good form and Pentax are still with us.

Foveon FF certainly has a challenge ahead of it, however. The years have passed and Bayer sensors are now extraordinarily high quality. This time around Sigma is not going to be in a position to claim the new sensor is spectacularly more detailed or sharper and it's still going to suffer the intrinsic downsides of noise, limited dynamic range and occasional colour misfires. This means even if Sigma do a good job with the new sensor, it is going to be even more of a niche product than previously. It's going to have to appeal on a "look" alone.

However... we know that people are constantly searching for something different (film come back, HDR, whatever) to give a different slant on their photography, so there is always hope that it will occupy a special niche that will give it a place. The L mount will also mean L mount users can add the camera to their existing outfit rather than have to invest in a complete SA mount system. This should broaden its appeal. But also allow an easier comparison with Bayer systems which could be a plus or a minus.

Interesting times with Foveon, but not one that allows any confident predictions. Wait and see.

This is beautifully phrased, here I totally agree.

Jozef.

Scottelly wrote:

Jozef M wrote:

Le Camerique wrote:

The R5 is a nice camera, no doubt. But I would still prefer a new Foveon. Even an old DP2 Merrill if I'm being honest.

The look is different, period.

The overall look and tonality of the Merrill sensor, which you see and like on your monitor, disappears when you print out photos, or use them in print for books and magazines.

That's where the Bayer sensors win with their greater ease of use, dynamic range, and use of higher iso values. No Foveon sensor camera can compete with that.

And 99% of website viewers give a darn about the image quality of pictures on the internet. Sigma is a business, it has to make a profit to survive. I don't think Sigma is going to launch yet another niche camera.
Regret...

I think that you are off base here. Niche cameras are what sigma has been making all along. Why would they stop doing that, and go up against the likes of Sony, Canon, and Panasonic? Do you really think Sigma can make a 24 MP, full-frame camera that's better than Panasonic's new S5 II?

Sigma has a good position with their fp line, which is a line of niche cameras, as you surely know. Those little cameras probably sell better than any other cameras they have ever sold before (but maybe not, because they're so much more expensive than the SD Quattro).

I can imagine Sigma making the FFF, and selling them slowly for about $3,000 each . . . for a long time. I can imagine them following that up with an fp T (three-layer), using the same sensor, and selling that camera for about the same price. Then I can imagine they might make a more affordable camera, with an APS-C sensor that has 20 MP per layer (though I bet it will be much more expensive than the SD Quattro). Then, after they do that I can imagine them stepping up the resolution of their full-frame offerings by "quatrifying" the FFF, updating the electronics with a faster processor and a faster memory card slot, doubling the buffer memory, improving the EVF, etc. I think one day the switch to L mount will be a thing of the distant past, and Sigma will still be making three-layer sensors, because that will be one of the niches which will make L mount unique.

BTW, would you agree that Leica makes niche cameras? If so, do you think Leica just doesn't know what they're doing?

Sure the image shown has good detail. High detail is a feature of Foveon, but not the only purpose of it. I loved the colors, tonality and overall look from my old Merrill.

Jozef

The Leica M cameras can be considered niche cameras, yes, with their dated focusing system, their lack of long prime lenses and zooms, not to mention their exaggerated pricing.

At Leica, they are still banking on their old outdated reputation for quality, and they apparently still laugh their heads off there that rich people still want to buy their stuff. Bling bling. But yes, I don't blame Leica, this is also a business model, I wonder how long they can keep this up. If the CEO wants another new Rolls, let's make another 'special green Safari M' version. Cash cash.

Jozef.

Brev00 wrote:

Jozef M wrote:

Dear Sigma Foveon sensor fans and connoisseurs.

I often browse the forums here, and on the Canon R forum I come across this picture. So this is not my photo, the creators' names are at the bottom right. But you should definitely take a look at this photo in full size, at 100% view.

When you then see what the future Full Frame Foveon sensor has to contend with ...
The resolution, the dynamic range, the detail in the shadows, the colour reproduction ... Ok, this image has been edited a lot with DxO and Photoshop, and it's also just a jpeg.

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ,

Yet you just discounted the iq of this pic as you acknowledged that it has been greatly edited and is a jpeg. Why would the ceo ever use this pic to conclude anything about the potential of a full frame foveon sensor?

the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

Is Sigma in such a race? Is that their mission? Is their such a thing as absolute iq?

The prices for this Canon R5 + a couple of good L lenses are incredibly expensive though, and I will never and cannot afford them.

Don't sell yourself short. And don't overlook the used market. In ten years, this gear will be ancient history.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Sigma makes niche cameras. It seems to me to be more a labor of love than an effort to maximize profit. Plus, I don't know how employees will benefit financially from discontinuing a line of cameras. Their jobs will be discontinued as well.

I didn't even know planfullly is a word. My spellcheck didn't either as it immediately changed it to playful.

I have no skin in this game. I don't own a Sigma camera and likely will never. They lost the battle for market domination (more important than IQ supremacy for their bottom line) of the foveon sensor long ago. It's not like making film cameras in this day and age. More like making laser discs.

This is no slam at Sigma cameras or their appreciative consumers. My respect for individual photographers rests on their output, not the equipment they use to produce it. I can even appreciate photos made with Canon cameras (eek!).

I am not big on making predictions about camera company viability. I have no idea what amalgam of factors the CEO is using to make his decisions. One obstacle is likely practical: the availability of chips. Sony discontinued certain cameras because that allows them to focus production on the more profitable lines of cameras. Plus, experimentation often leads to failure. Sigma may not be successful in moving from idea to actuality. Happens.

Jozef

OH, I see you play in the Nikon team.

Jozef.

Scottelly wrote:

….

BTW, would you agree that Leica makes niche cameras? If so, do you think Leica just doesn't know what they're doing?

Not at all meant to denigrate the cameras, but why do users of systems with very limited appeal so frequently use Leica as a parallel? Leica cameras have broad appeal with a storied name and history, and are intentionally in a niche as an unattainable object of envy. Remember when Sigma tried that in releasing the SD1 at about $10000 before issuing apologies, free lenses to early adopters, rosewood cases, rapid price cuts to about 20% of original, and replacing the model in less than 18 months as SD1M? That is not at all reminiscent of Leica. There is a difference between being resigned to accepting the designation of “niche” as a means of survival, and actively seeking to foster that designation as a distinctive.

Yamaki knows exactly what he is doing as he strives to produce quality lenses, a current line of bodies with a more broad appeal, and hopes of eventually maintaining the Foveon dreams of his father. That aside, we will not know for another 100 years if “Sigma” can achieve the “Leica” aura.

egk4260 wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

….

BTW, would you agree that Leica makes niche cameras? If so, do you think Leica just doesn't know what they're doing?

Not at all meant to denigrate the cameras, but why do users of systems with very limited appeal so frequently use Leica as a parallel? Leica cameras have broad appeal with a storied name and history, and are intentionally in a niche as an unattainable object of envy. Remember when Sigma tried that in releasing the SD1 at about $10000 before issuing apologies, free lenses to early adopters, rosewood cases, rapid price cuts to about 20% of original, and replacing the model in less than 18 months as SD1M? That is not at all reminiscent of Leica. There is a difference between being resigned to accepting the designation of “niche” as a means of survival, and actively seeking to foster that designation as a distinctive.

Yamaki knows exactly what he is doing as he strives to produce quality lenses, a current line of bodies with a more broad appeal, and hopes of eventually maintaining the Foveon dreams of his father. That aside, we will not know for another 100 years if “Sigma” can achieve the “Leica” aura.

Well said!

+1

Jozef M wrote:

Brev00 wrote:

Jozef M wrote:

Dear Sigma Foveon sensor fans and connoisseurs.

I often browse the forums here, and on the Canon R forum I come across this picture. So this is not my photo, the creators' names are at the bottom right. But you should definitely take a look at this photo in full size, at 100% view.

When you then see what the future Full Frame Foveon sensor has to contend with ...
The resolution, the dynamic range, the detail in the shadows, the colour reproduction ... Ok, this image has been edited a lot with DxO and Photoshop, and it's also just a jpeg.

But if I were CEO Yamaki, and I see this IQ,

Yet you just discounted the iq of this pic as you acknowledged that it has been greatly edited and is a jpeg. Why would the ceo ever use this pic to conclude anything about the potential of a full frame foveon sensor?

the courage to start with a FF Foveon camera would sink into my shoes. I would think that the race to absolute IQ is over, and that Sigma has lost it.

Is Sigma in such a race? Is that their mission? Is their such a thing as absolute iq?

The prices for this Canon R5 + a couple of good L lenses are incredibly expensive though, and I will never and cannot afford them.

Don't sell yourself short. And don't overlook the used market. In ten years, this gear will be ancient history.

If the CEO of Sigma acts logically, rationally, planfully and with responsibility for his employees' income, then surely he should not launch the FFF camera?
What do you all think?

Sigma makes niche cameras. It seems to me to be more a labor of love than an effort to maximize profit. Plus, I don't know how employees will benefit financially from discontinuing a line of cameras. Their jobs will be discontinued as well.

I didn't even know planfullly is a word. My spellcheck didn't either as it immediately changed it to playful.

I have no skin in this game. I don't own a Sigma camera and likely will never. They lost the battle for market domination (more important than IQ supremacy for their bottom line) of the foveon sensor long ago. It's not like making film cameras in this day and age. More like making laser discs.

This is no slam at Sigma cameras or their appreciative consumers. My respect for individual photographers rests on their output, not the equipment they use to produce it. I can even appreciate photos made with Canon cameras (eek!).

I am not big on making predictions about camera company viability. I have no idea what amalgam of factors the CEO is using to make his decisions. One obstacle is likely practical: the availability of chips. Sony discontinued certain cameras because that allows them to focus production on the more profitable lines of cameras. Plus, experimentation often leads to failure. Sigma may not be successful in moving from idea to actuality. Happens.

Jozef

OH, I see you play in

on,

the Nikon team.

Nice that you looked at my current gear page!  Unfortunately, DPREview does not include the Google Pixel 6 Pro in their gear selection choices for mobile phones. Been shooting that a great deal more than my Nikons lately. So, I guess I am on the Google team?

Jozef.