Strange image shake on R7

Circa1200AD wrote:

J.K.T. wrote:

I'm hearing this a bit too frequently. I have to wonder if Canon has made a bit of a design fib with the shutter stock and IBIS. They don't have that much experience with IBIS on cameras with fast rate and the smaller sensor is considerably lighter than FF...

Naturally just is just speculation with no hard facts behind it. It is just the kind of mistake that could be made and would explain these reports.

Sorry for the slow response, apparently I hadn't turned on notifications yet. Yes, I'm using full mechanical shutter to avoid any rolling shutter on higher shutter speed panning shots. This is the first I've heard of shutter shock, guess that's probably an IBIS thing as I never had an issue like this on my old 7D (where I'm coming from). I'll give electronic shutter a shot, hopefully that fixes it.

Thanks!

EFCS should be your default setting (there's a reason why it's the default on the R). As regards e-shutter, remember that rolling shutter only affects certain kinds of shots. I've taken many thousands of shots in e-shutter on my R7 (and M6II) without any distortion at all. In fact, I think my total number of shots affected by rolling shutter distortion is under 10. Panning is one of those situations, if there are vertical lines in the background. If there aren't, you might be OK. Fast-moving subjects can show distortion, but it all depends on the direction of movement and the shape of the subject. It's easy to panic about rolling shutter, because it's the current stick with which to bash cameras (like DR used to be). Once you really understand how it works, you can have a pretty good idea of when you might be affected, and when you won't be. I like to use e-shutter as much as possible, to avoid wear on the mechanical shutter, and for the silence. But EFCS works really well too. There have been some reports of some shutter shock with EFCS in high speed (15fps) bursts. I've never experienced it, but I'm usually shooting 8fps, not 15fps, in EFCS (I just don't need 15fps usually), and I'm pretty much always shooting much faster shutter speeds with fast burst rates. I have a really hard time imagining when I'd want to shoot 15fps at 1/80. If I want that high a burst rate, it's for fast-moving subects, so I also want much faster shutter speeds. I'm sure someone will come up with a scenario for shooting 15fps at 1/80, and then they'll claim that that is also the most common shooting scenario for them, so any camera that suffers shutter shock with EFCS at 15fps 1/80 must be completely useless. That's just the nature of these forum discussions. The other thing to remember about shutter shock is that it seems to be highly lens dependent. Maybe the reason I've never seen it on my R7, even when I've specifically tried to induce it (by shooting full mechanical at 1/60 and 1/80), is that my lenses don't suffer from it.

Alastair Norcross wrote:

Circa1200AD wrote:

J.K.T. wrote:

I'm hearing this a bit too frequently. I have to wonder if Canon has made a bit of a design fib with the shutter stock and IBIS. They don't have that much experience with IBIS on cameras with fast rate and the smaller sensor is considerably lighter than FF...

Naturally just is just speculation with no hard facts behind it. It is just the kind of mistake that could be made and would explain these reports.

Sorry for the slow response, apparently I hadn't turned on notifications yet. Yes, I'm using full mechanical shutter to avoid any rolling shutter on higher shutter speed panning shots. This is the first I've heard of shutter shock, guess that's probably an IBIS thing as I never had an issue like this on my old 7D (where I'm coming from). I'll give electronic shutter a shot, hopefully that fixes it.

Thanks!

EFCS should be your default setting (there's a reason why it's the default on the R). As regards e-shutter, remember that rolling shutter only affects certain kinds of shots. I've taken many thousands of shots in e-shutter on my R7 (and M6II) without any distortion at all. In fact, I think my total number of shots affected by rolling shutter distortion is under 10. Panning is one of those situations, if there are vertical lines in the background. If there aren't, you might be OK. Fast-moving subjects can show distortion, but it all depends on the direction of movement and the shape of the subject. It's easy to panic about rolling shutter, because it's the current stick with which to bash cameras (like DR used to be). Once you really understand how it works, you can have a pretty good idea of when you might be affected, and when you won't be. I like to use e-shutter as much as possible, to avoid wear on the mechanical shutter, and for the silence. But EFCS works really well too. There have been some reports of some shutter shock with EFCS in high speed (15fps) bursts. I've never experienced it, but I'm usually shooting 8fps, not 15fps, in EFCS (I just don't need 15fps usually), and I'm pretty much always shooting much faster shutter speeds with fast burst rates. I have a really hard time imagining when I'd want to shoot 15fps at 1/80. If I want that high a burst rate, it's for fast-moving subects, so I also want much faster shutter speeds. I'm sure someone will come up with a scenario for shooting 15fps at 1/80, and then they'll claim that that is also the most common shooting scenario for them, so any camera that suffers shutter shock with EFCS at 15fps 1/80 must be completely useless. That's just the nature of these forum discussions. The other thing to remember about shutter shock is that it seems to be highly lens dependent. Maybe the reason I've never seen it on my R7, even when I've specifically tried to induce it (by shooting full mechanical at 1/60 and 1/80), is that my lenses don't suffer from it.

Thanks for the insight. I think my first few times shooting with the R7 may have just been in the sweet spot for shutter shock. I had definitely bought into the e-shutter bashing hype and didn't even give it a try, but this thread has caused me to do a little more reading on the EFCS vs electronic vs mechanical. I do shoot at airshows from time to time that might be subject to rolling shutter, but I'll have to experiment with whether my shots actually have any perceptible distortion.

David Yule wrote:

That setting will only affect things where the camera can't detect a lens e.g. one with no electronic interface, which are usually manual focus lenses/adapted lenses.

Yes, you are right. I'm also pointing out this could be an intermittent connection issue which may have the same effect as above.

Circa1200AD wrote:

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum but have been shooting with Canon DSLRs for 15+ years. I just got an R7 a month or so ago and have noticed a strange thing with my images: there appears to be noticeable image shake even when the shutter speed should be high enough to avoid shake without IS. And the shake seen in the images isn't the smooth blur you often get with an unsteady hand but rather it's like a double image. Am I doing something wrong with the R7? Is there a setting I've missed or screwed up?

Below are 100% crops from the R7, all handheld at f/5.6 and 1/80th with focal lengths around 22-28mm (except the 100-500mm shots). I've used a variety of lenses (Canon EF-S 15-85mm, Canon EF-S 10-22mm, Canon EF 28mm f/1.8, and Canon RF 100-500mm) with the EF and EF-S lenses using a Canon EF-RF adapter.

F/5.6, 1/80th, ISO 800, 100% crop, 22mm

F/5.6, 1/80th, ISO 800, 100% crop, 22mm

F/5.6, 1/80th, ISO 800, 100% crop, 28mm

F/5.6, 1/80th, ISO 800, 100% crop, 22mm

F/5.6, 1/80th, ISO 800, 100% crop, 100mm

F/5.6, 1/80th, ISO 800, 100% crop, 100mm

The only time I ran into this with my R7 is when I had a UV filter installed and I was using a long telephoto lens on a tripod.

I did some extensive testing today and all the results point to a case of shutter shock.

The variables I looked at were changing the shutter style (mechanical, EFCS, electronic), burst mode (ContH+, ContH, Cont), shutter speed (~1/125th and 1/1000th), lens (EF-S 15-85mm f3.5-5.6 IS @28mm, EF 28mm f1.8, RF 100-500mm f4.5-7.1 IS @100mm), and lens IS (on/off).

When the shutter speed was high (~1/1000) there was minimal blurring, even in ContH+ with the mechanical shutter. Once the shutter speed was lower, however, there were noticeable differences between the shutter styles. The electronic shutter showed no blurring in virtually all the scenarios whereas the mechanical shutter showed some blurring in virtually every scenario.

The EFCS mode had mixed results. In ContH+, the first image was sharp while the remaining images in the burst suffered some shake. In ContH, the first image in the burst was sharp while the remaining images were not as blurry as in ContH+ but not as sharp as the first. In Cont mode, all the images appeared sharp.

If you are interested, I can post 100% crops of representative samples of the pictures in different conditions.

Thanks!

Circa1200AD wrote:

I did some extensive testing today and all the results point to a case of shutter shock.

The variables I looked at were changing the shutter style (mechanical, EFCS, electronic), burst mode (ContH+, ContH, Cont), shutter speed (~1/125th and 1/1000th), lens (EF-S 15-85mm f3.5-5.6 IS @28mm, EF 28mm f1.8, RF 100-500mm f4.5-7.1 IS @100mm), and lens IS (on/off).

When the shutter speed was high (~1/1000) there was minimal blurring, even in ContH+ with the mechanical shutter. Once the shutter speed was lower, however, there were noticeable differences between the shutter styles. The electronic shutter showed no blurring in virtually all the scenarios whereas the mechanical shutter showed some blurring in virtually every scenario.

The EFCS mode had mixed results. In ContH+, the first image was sharp while the remaining images in the burst suffered some shake. In ContH, the first image in the burst was sharp while the remaining images were not as blurry as in ContH+ but not as sharp as the first. In Cont mode, all the images appeared sharp.

If you are interested, I can post 100% crops of representative samples of the pictures in different conditions.

Thanks!

Here's the comparison. Left image is the first in a burst, right image is a representative image from later in the burst. All were handheld.

Circa1200AD wrote:

Circa1200AD wrote:

I did some extensive testing today and all the results point to a case of shutter shock.

The variables I looked at were changing the shutter style (mechanical, EFCS, electronic), burst mode (ContH+, ContH, Cont), shutter speed (~1/125th and 1/1000th), lens (EF-S 15-85mm f3.5-5.6 IS @28mm, EF 28mm f1.8, RF 100-500mm f4.5-7.1 IS @100mm), and lens IS (on/off).

When the shutter speed was high (~1/1000) there was minimal blurring, even in ContH+ with the mechanical shutter. Once the shutter speed was lower, however, there were noticeable differences between the shutter styles. The electronic shutter showed no blurring in virtually all the scenarios whereas the mechanical shutter showed some blurring in virtually every scenario.

The EFCS mode had mixed results. In ContH+, the first image was sharp while the remaining images in the burst suffered some shake. In ContH, the first image in the burst was sharp while the remaining images were not as blurry as in ContH+ but not as sharp as the first. In Cont mode, all the images appeared sharp.

If you are interested, I can post 100% crops of representative samples of the pictures in different conditions.

Thanks!

Here's the comparison. Left image is the first in a burst, right image is a representative image from later in the burst. All were handheld.

Thanks for sharing. This is why I am defaulted to EFCS. What I did notice, additionally, is when panning - the R7 on mechanical shutter is more prone to shake, even when I am using a shutter speed 2-2.5x higher than the focal length at which I am shooting (1/300 - 1/500 at 150mm, for instance). And it's not always - which makes the problem quite "random."

Yup, I had mine changed to EFSC, as it's mentioned that image sensor stabilization only works in this mode (if I am not wrong) and in addition to lens stabilization. Only problem is the auto-leveling will not work with EFSC and the camera will automatically default to mechanical shutter when this is turned on. The auto leveling is great for landscapes, and I use this feature a lot. The  great thing is, it defaults back to EFSC the minute Auto Levling is turned off, which I have a customised button (down arrow on the direction pad) to toggle this on and off.