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Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

Started 2 months ago | Questions
StrugglingforLight Regular Member • Posts: 126
Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
1

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
3

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

whereas picture style jpgs will have different histograms

those who shoot jpg usually do so to get straight out of the camera results -- but work with the different picture styles or develop a custom picture style to get the SOOC results they want

some shoot RAW + jpg so that if their SOOC picture style jpg is not to their liking, they can post process the raw to taste.

the problem shooting jpg for some scenes is that you reduce the push/pull capability in post processing because the dynamic range is reduced -- this is why I always shoot RAW and sometimes use RAW + jpg -- you have greater flexibility if you have to post process

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nnowak Veteran Member • Posts: 9,074
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
2

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

Yes, even if shooting RAW only, the chosen Picture Style will affect the histogram.  And of course, it will also effect the rendering of the image displayed on the rear LCD and EVF.  The embedded JPEG that is in the RAW file will be generated using the chosen Picture Style, which will impact how the RAW image looks when reviewing it on your camera.

To take it a step further, white balance settings will also have all of the same impacts as Picture Style settings.

Whether or not any of it matters is up to you.

nnowak Veteran Member • Posts: 9,074
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
4

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

whereas picture style jpgs will have different histograms

No camera can display a RAW histogram.  Even if you are shooting RAW only, the displayed histogram will be affected by the chosen Picture Style as well as the White Balance.

m100
m100 Senior Member • Posts: 2,048
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

In what way ?

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nnowak Veteran Member • Posts: 9,074
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

In what way ?

The answer was right there in the part of my post that you snipped out.

Kameratrollet Senior Member • Posts: 1,099
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

Magic Lantern has a nice feature called Raw based exposure feedback, if you have a camera that supports ML https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12096.0#post_Histogram

m100
m100 Senior Member • Posts: 2,048
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

nnowak wrote:

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

In what way ?

The answer was right there in the part of my post that you snipped out.

Ok.  I was thinking you were saying there is a difference when PP ?

The info is in the raw file but can be changed by PL or Lightroom ?

I found the sharpness setting in picture styles can affect focus peaking.

It could affect auto focus too ?

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
2

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

after taking over a million shots in raw with std picture style shown on the back of my Canon camera screens, which matters not when I'm done post processing raw,

no, it matters not

whereas picture style jpgs will have different histograms

No camera can display a RAW histogram.

that is why I shoot raw, lots of extra push / pull room to adjust histogram in post vs messing with picture styles and just leaving it in std

Even if you are shooting RAW only, the displayed histogram will be affected by the chosen Picture Style as well as the White Balance.

it is over the top to try to figure out what picture style, besides std, gives you the most useful histogram, when you are shooting raw and will post process anyway - says the shooter with over a million processed raw shots

you shoot jpg because your camera and sports application for 90% of your shooting can't keep up with raw in the buffer - and the issue with jpg is it bakes in those jpg presets and reduces the dynamic range so adjustments in post become more difficult - and the user relies too much on the back screen which may not reflect what a well calibrated photo computer monitor was designed to do

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nnowak Veteran Member • Posts: 9,074
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
5

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

after taking over a million shots in raw with std picture style shown on the back of my Canon camera screens, which matters not when I'm done post processing raw,

no, it matters not

Whether or not it matters to you is not the point.  To the OP's original question, yes, changing the picture style will indeed impact the histogram.  Changing white balance also impacts the histogram.  Whether you shoot RAW or JPEG, the impacts on the histogram are the same.

whereas picture style jpgs will have different histograms

No camera can display a RAW histogram.

that is why I shoot raw, lots of extra push / pull room to adjust histogram in post vs messing with picture styles and just leaving it in std

The OP is already shooting RAW only.

Even if you are shooting RAW only, the displayed histogram will be affected by the chosen Picture Style as well as the White Balance.

it is over the top to try to figure out what picture style, besides std, gives you the most useful histogram, when you are shooting raw and will post process anyway - says the shooter with over a million processed raw shots

Other people have different needs than you.  Landscape photographers trying to maximize every last bit of dynamic range will often want to be a bit more precise in their exposure.

you shoot jpg because your camera and sports application for 90% of your shooting can't keep up with raw in the buffer - and the issue with jpg is it bakes in those jpg presets and reduces the dynamic range so adjustments in post become more difficult - and the user relies too much on the back screen which may not reflect what a well calibrated photo computer monitor was designed to do

I have no idea what any of that has to do with the OP's original question, but no, that's not what I do.

selected answer This post was selected as the answer by the original poster.
nnowak Veteran Member • Posts: 9,074
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
3

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

In what way ?

The answer was right there in the part of my post that you snipped out.

Ok. I was thinking you were saying there is a difference when PP ?

No.  The OP's question revolves around using the in camera histogram to optimize image exposure at the time of capture.

The info is in the raw file but can be changed by PL or Lightroom ?

Of course.

I found the sharpness setting in picture styles can affect focus peaking.

Yes.  Focus peaking is just being run on the video feed going to the LCD/EVF and requires a demosaiced, processed image.

It could affect auto focus too ?

No, not with phase detect AF, as this is done using direct image sensor data and is independent of any demosaicing.

MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
1

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

after taking over a million shots in raw with std picture style shown on the back of my Canon camera screens, which matters not when I'm done post processing raw,

no, it matters not

Whether or not it matters to you is not the point.

you made your point technically on an answer that does not fully match the question

the op asked a specific question about using neutral picture style that you did not answer the specific question - will using neutral picture style when shooting raw matter?

yes or no

I said no from my perspective - leave it in std picture style and process the raw.  You didn't answer the specific question.

Other people have different needs than you. Landscape photographers trying to maximize every last bit of dynamic range will often want to be a bit more precise in their exposure.

they shoot raw only also, and so what picture style settings do they use?  neutral?

if one can't answer the op's specific question, does using neutral picture style indeed really matter?

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nnowak Veteran Member • Posts: 9,074
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
5

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

after taking over a million shots in raw with std picture style shown on the back of my Canon camera screens, which matters not when I'm done post processing raw,

no, it matters not

Whether or not it matters to you is not the point.

you made your point technically on an answer that does not fully match the question

the op asked a specific question about using neutral picture style that you did not answer the specific question - will using neutral picture style when shooting raw matter?

yes or no

Reread the title of the OP's post. Their primary question was whether or not Picture Styles had any impact on the displayed histogram.

I said no from my perspective - leave it in std picture style and process the raw. You didn't answer the specific question.

I did answer their question. You were the one that went off on a tangent about the merits of shooting RAW over JPEG.

Other people have different needs than you. Landscape photographers trying to maximize every last bit of dynamic range will often want to be a bit more precise in their exposure.

they shoot raw only also, and so what picture style settings do they use? neutral?

Some landscape photographers create a custom, flat picture style specific to their needs.

if one can't answer the op's specific question, does using neutral picture style indeed really matter?

You are misreading the OP's question. When they asked "does it not matter?", that was in reference to their original question of whether or not picture styles impacted the histogram.

MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
3

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

after taking over a million shots in raw with std picture style shown on the back of my Canon camera screens, which matters not when I'm done post processing raw,

no, it matters not

Whether or not it matters to you is not the point.

you made your point technically on an answer that does not fully match the question

the op asked a specific question about using neutral picture style that you did not answer the specific question - will using neutral picture style when shooting raw matter?

yes or no

Reread the title of the OP's post. Their primary question was whether or not Picture Styles had any impact on the displayed histogram.

what about the question on using neutral picture style?

I said no from my perspective - leave it in std picture style and process the raw. You didn't answer the specific question.

I did answer their question. You were the one that went off on a tangent about the merits of shooting RAW over JPEG.

I answered both questions

Other people have different needs than you. Landscape photographers trying to maximize every last bit of dynamic range will often want to be a bit more precise in their exposure.

they shoot raw only also, and so what picture style settings do they use? neutral?

Some landscape photographers create a custom, flat picture style specific to their needs.

and this could be the heart of the answer the op is looking for by asking about using neutral

what is the formula for a custom flat

how and why would it help

I haven't read anything about it in two decades

if one can't answer the op's specific question, does using neutral picture style indeed really matter?

You are misreading the OP's question. When they asked "does it not matter?", that was in reference to their original question of whether or not picture styles impacted the histogram.

the op hasn't tagged the thread as questions answered - I would like to learn more about this flat custom picture style

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m100
m100 Senior Member • Posts: 2,048
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
2

nnowak wrote:

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

In what way ?

The answer was right there in the part of my post that you snipped out.

Ok. I was thinking you were saying there is a difference when PP ?

No. The OP's question revolves around using the in camera histogram to optimize image exposure at the time of capture.

The info is in the raw file but can be changed by PL or Lightroom ?

Of course.

I found the sharpness setting in picture styles can affect focus peaking.

Yes. Focus peaking is just being run on the video feed going to the LCD/EVF and requires a demosaiced, processed image.

It could affect auto focus too ?

No, not with phase detect AF, as this is done using direct image sensor data and is independent of any demosaicing.

I am thinking tracking is being run on the video feed going to the LCD/EVF too and the neutral style default has sharpness turned down.

Am not seeing how turning the sharpness down is of any use at all when trying to track or focus  ?

Sure does not help with manual focus ?

When the photo makes it to PL then it really does not matter at all ? 

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
3

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

m100 wrote:

nnowak wrote:

MAC wrote:

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

Thank you.

if you shoot raw, it matters not -- just post-process to taste

It does matter

In what way ?

The answer was right there in the part of my post that you snipped out.

Ok. I was thinking you were saying there is a difference when PP ?

No. The OP's question revolves around using the in camera histogram to optimize image exposure at the time of capture.

The info is in the raw file but can be changed by PL or Lightroom ?

Of course.

I found the sharpness setting in picture styles can affect focus peaking.

Yes. Focus peaking is just being run on the video feed going to the LCD/EVF and requires a demosaiced, processed image.

It could affect auto focus too ?

No, not with phase detect AF, as this is done using direct image sensor data and is independent of any demosaicing.

I am thinking tracking is being run on the video feed going to the LCD/EVF too and the neutral style default has sharpness turned down.

Am not seeing how turning the sharpness down is of any use at all when trying to track or focus ?

Sure does not help with manual focus ?

When the photo makes it to PL then it really does not matter at all ?

good point, and if you chimp on the back screen, you want to see sharpness

and when shooting raw, once it reaches DXO PL, it really doesn't matter -- as I said from the start

so imo, the answer that should have been check marked is that some can refer to some theoretical landscape shooters custom application that they have no experience with, and can't give settings, but in the end, it really doesn't matter, because at most the back screen isn't the reality of what the raw image will end up looking like and you want the back screen image to be sharp enough to chimp as you alluded to and see if you achieved proper focus.

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m100
m100 Senior Member • Posts: 2,048
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

MAC wrote:

and see if you achieved proper focus.

That is the challenge in 2023 !

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
1

m100 wrote:

MAC wrote:

and see if you achieved proper focus.

That is the challenge in 2023 !

ahh, a new year's resolution !

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R2D2 Forum Pro • Posts: 26,528
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?
5

StrugglingforLight wrote:

If so, would it be best to use a neutral style to get the "most accurate" histogram if shooting raw only? Or does it not matter?

It does not matter.

You can use any Picture Style you’d like, and for any reason you would like. That’s why you can change them!

All that matters is that you know HOW that particular Picture Style impacts the rendering of the histogram, how it impacts the camera’s behavior, and what effects it might have on the final image.

A good discussion could be had regarding all three of the above (because the ramifications are important), as long as it’s not “quashed” by any particular member [ahem].

R2

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MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 18,487
Re: Do JPEG Styles alter the histogram?

R2D2 wrote:

A good discussion could be had

R2

yep, could have been a good learning on all things picture style, but the discussion was squashed as you said

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