AFS-S issue - Returning my XT5

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

Thanks Bob. For this test the images were shot RAF, brought into LR, compared and exported as JPEGs without any editing.

Are you sure it’s a focus issue?. This is just not how you should be comparing these cameras at all. The default Lightroom import settings are far from optimal with the 26MP sensor and even more suboptimal with 40MP sensor. The two sensors are different and require significantly sharpening settings for an optimal result. If you’re not going to process them properly you not going to be able to compare them properly. You’d be better off comparing SOOC jpgs (NR at -4).

I used the 2s delay for the shutter release. I didn't see a difference with the different IS modes. I'm guessing the old rule of "turn it off on a tripod" still applies? I had the same experience with the 23mm f/2. I checked a few settings on the camera after posting and did see that I was not in single point AF. Because it appears I have a front focus issue I'm going to try shooting again later today. I also turned off the screen touch for focus and the shutter release focus. I'm hoping this is just adapting to a new body as a user and not an actual problem.

Great images of the planes by the way.

Eric's suggestion of initially comparing SOOC's is a good one.  The reason I had asked about  processing is what Eric stated.  The RAWS, especially the 40mp sensor, require sharpening, and as long as your shooting technique accommodates the larger, more tightly packed sensor, they should be ok.  When I first bought my D800e many years ago I was disappointed I wasn't getting the resolution I had seen with others achieve with the new 36mp sensor.  What I came to find out quite quickly is I needed to up my game.  Tripod, shutter delay, etc. brought me to the sharpness and resolution the camera was built for.

If you want to test with RAFS's here is my PP routine which led to the image above and works quite well.  Assuming my shot has not contributed to any motion blur, I first process the RAF with X-Transformer, then import to LR for minor adjustments  with NO SHARPENING applied.  Export (no output sharpening) to JPEG or TIFF (others may differ at this point).  Examine the resultant file with PS and once satisfied (still no sharpening applied) save your file for the next step....use Topaz Sharpen AI.  Topaz analyzes the image and presents initial settings.  These are usually too aggressive so I dial it back.  Once satisfied Topaz exports the file and then you have it.  Higher ISO images with a moderate to high amount of noise is processed with Topaz Denoise first before Sharpen.  Hope that helps.

BobsYourUncle wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

Thanks Bob. For this test the images were shot RAF, brought into LR, compared and exported as JPEGs without any editing.

Are you sure it’s a focus issue?. This is just not how you should be comparing these cameras at all. The default Lightroom import settings are far from optimal with the 26MP sensor and even more suboptimal with 40MP sensor. The two sensors are different and require significantly sharpening settings for an optimal result. If you’re not going to process them properly you not going to be able to compare them properly. You’d be better off comparing SOOC jpgs (NR at -4).

I used the 2s delay for the shutter release. I didn't see a difference with the different IS modes. I'm guessing the old rule of "turn it off on a tripod" still applies? I had the same experience with the 23mm f/2. I checked a few settings on the camera after posting and did see that I was not in single point AF. Because it appears I have a front focus issue I'm going to try shooting again later today. I also turned off the screen touch for focus and the shutter release focus. I'm hoping this is just adapting to a new body as a user and not an actual problem.

Great images of the planes by the way.

Eric's suggestion of initially comparing SOOC's is a good one. The reason I had asked about processing is what Eric stated. The RAWS, especially the 40mp sensor, require sharpening, and as long as your shooting technique accommodates the larger, more tightly packed sensor, they should be ok. When I first bought my D800e many years ago I was disappointed I wasn't getting the resolution I had seen with others achieve with the new 36mp sensor. What I came to find out quite quickly is I needed to up my game. Tripod, shutter delay, etc. brought me to the sharpness and resolution the camera was built for.

If you want to test with RAFS's here is my PP routine which led to the image above and works quite well. Assuming my shot has not contributed to any motion blur, I first process the RAF with X-Transformer, then import to LR for minor adjustments with NO SHARPENING applied. Export (no output sharpening) to JPEG or TIFF (others may differ at this point). Examine the resultant file with PS and once satisfied (still no sharpening applied) save your file for the next step....use Topaz Sharpen AI. Topaz analyzes the image and presents initial settings. These are usually too aggressive so I dial it back. Once satisfied Topaz exports the file and then you have it. Higher ISO images with a moderate to high amount of noise is processed with Topaz Denoise first before Sharpen. Hope that helps.

I may have to go back to X transformer. I bought it for my X-T20 RAF images way back when. I've read elsewhere on the forums here that they've had better luck converting the new 40MP images with X transformer first. 
Going to shoot and process a few images this week as it's looking more like user error. First test will be to try and verify if there's an actual focus issue however. If I can rule that out, than it's just a matter of learning how to manage the new 40 MP files for me.

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

Thanks Bob. For this test the images were shot RAF, brought into LR, compared and exported as JPEGs without any editing.

Are you sure it’s a focus issue?. This is just not how you should be comparing these cameras at all. The default Lightroom import settings are far from optimal with the 26MP sensor and even more suboptimal with 40MP sensor. The two sensors are different and require significantly sharpening settings for an optimal result. If you’re not going to process them properly you not going to be able to compare them properly. You’d be better off comparing SOOC jpgs (NR at -4).

I used the 2s delay for the shutter release. I didn't see a difference with the different IS modes. I'm guessing the old rule of "turn it off on a tripod" still applies? I had the same experience with the 23mm f/2. I checked a few settings on the camera after posting and did see that I was not in single point AF. Because it appears I have a front focus issue I'm going to try shooting again later today. I also turned off the screen touch for focus and the shutter release focus. I'm hoping this is just adapting to a new body as a user and not an actual problem.

Great images of the planes by the way.

Eric's suggestion of initially comparing SOOC's is a good one. The reason I had asked about processing is what Eric stated. The RAWS, especially the 40mp sensor, require sharpening, and as long as your shooting technique accommodates the larger, more tightly packed sensor, they should be ok. When I first bought my D800e many years ago I was disappointed I wasn't getting the resolution I had seen with others achieve with the new 36mp sensor. What I came to find out quite quickly is I needed to up my game. Tripod, shutter delay, etc. brought me to the sharpness and resolution the camera was built for.

If you want to test with RAFS's here is my PP routine which led to the image above and works quite well. Assuming my shot has not contributed to any motion blur, I first process the RAF with X-Transformer, then import to LR for minor adjustments with NO SHARPENING applied. Export (no output sharpening) to JPEG or TIFF (others may differ at this point). Examine the resultant file with PS and once satisfied (still no sharpening applied) save your file for the next step....use Topaz Sharpen AI. Topaz analyzes the image and presents initial settings. These are usually too aggressive so I dial it back. Once satisfied Topaz exports the file and then you have it. Higher ISO images with a moderate to high amount of noise is processed with Topaz Denoise first before Sharpen. Hope that helps.

I may have to go back to X transformer. I bought it for my X-T20 RAF images way back when. I've read elsewhere on the forums here that they've had better luck converting the new 40MP images with X transformer first.
Going to shoot and process a few images this week as it's looking more like user error. First test will be to try and verify if there's an actual focus issue however. If I can rule that out, than it's just a matter of learning how to manage the new 40 MP files for me.

I don’t own the T5 but do own the H2.  In addition to managing larger files I would find it more difficult to keep the smaller T5 stable, hand held, when shooting.  Even with the slightly larger H2 I try to have the shortest shutter speed possible for any non-tripod situation. But I am still considering the X-T5 for travel.

BobsYourUncle wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

Thanks Bob. For this test the images were shot RAF, brought into LR, compared and exported as JPEGs without any editing.

Are you sure it’s a focus issue?. This is just not how you should be comparing these cameras at all. The default Lightroom import settings are far from optimal with the 26MP sensor and even more suboptimal with 40MP sensor. The two sensors are different and require significantly sharpening settings for an optimal result. If you’re not going to process them properly you not going to be able to compare them properly. You’d be better off comparing SOOC jpgs (NR at -4).

I used the 2s delay for the shutter release. I didn't see a difference with the different IS modes. I'm guessing the old rule of "turn it off on a tripod" still applies? I had the same experience with the 23mm f/2. I checked a few settings on the camera after posting and did see that I was not in single point AF. Because it appears I have a front focus issue I'm going to try shooting again later today. I also turned off the screen touch for focus and the shutter release focus. I'm hoping this is just adapting to a new body as a user and not an actual problem.

Great images of the planes by the way.

Eric's suggestion of initially comparing SOOC's is a good one. The reason I had asked about processing is what Eric stated. The RAWS, especially the 40mp sensor, require sharpening, and as long as your shooting technique accommodates the larger, more tightly packed sensor, they should be ok. When I first bought my D800e many years ago I was disappointed I wasn't getting the resolution I had seen with others achieve with the new 36mp sensor. What I came to find out quite quickly is I needed to up my game. Tripod, shutter delay, etc. brought me to the sharpness and resolution the camera was built for.

If you want to test with RAFS's here is my PP routine which led to the image above and works quite well. Assuming my shot has not contributed to any motion blur, I first process the RAF with X-Transformer, then import to LR for minor adjustments with NO SHARPENING applied. Export (no output sharpening) to JPEG or TIFF (others may differ at this point). Examine the resultant file with PS and once satisfied (still no sharpening applied) save your file for the next step....use Topaz Sharpen AI. Topaz analyzes the image and presents initial settings. These are usually too aggressive so I dial it back. Once satisfied Topaz exports the file and then you have it. Higher ISO images with a moderate to high amount of noise is processed with Topaz Denoise first before Sharpen. Hope that helps.

I may have to go back to X transformer. I bought it for my X-T20 RAF images way back when. I've read elsewhere on the forums here that they've had better luck converting the new 40MP images with X transformer first.
Going to shoot and process a few images this week as it's looking more like user error. First test will be to try and verify if there's an actual focus issue however. If I can rule that out, than it's just a matter of learning how to manage the new 40 MP files for me.

I don’t own the T5 but do own the H2. In addition to managing larger files I would find it more difficult to keep the smaller T5 stable, hand held, when shooting. Even with the slightly larger H2 I try to have the shortest shutter speed possible for any non-tripod situation. But I am still considering the X-T5 for travel.

After shooting with the X-T20 for almost six years, this thing feels gigantic. Especially so with an L-bracket attached.

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

Thanks Bob. For this test the images were shot RAF, brought into LR, compared and exported as JPEGs without any editing.

Are you sure it’s a focus issue?. This is just not how you should be comparing these cameras at all. The default Lightroom import settings are far from optimal with the 26MP sensor and even more suboptimal with 40MP sensor. The two sensors are different and require significantly sharpening settings for an optimal result. If you’re not going to process them properly you not going to be able to compare them properly. You’d be better off comparing SOOC jpgs (NR at -4).

I used the 2s delay for the shutter release. I didn't see a difference with the different IS modes. I'm guessing the old rule of "turn it off on a tripod" still applies? I had the same experience with the 23mm f/2. I checked a few settings on the camera after posting and did see that I was not in single point AF. Because it appears I have a front focus issue I'm going to try shooting again later today. I also turned off the screen touch for focus and the shutter release focus. I'm hoping this is just adapting to a new body as a user and not an actual problem.

Great images of the planes by the way.

Eric's suggestion of initially comparing SOOC's is a good one. The reason I had asked about processing is what Eric stated. The RAWS, especially the 40mp sensor, require sharpening, and as long as your shooting technique accommodates the larger, more tightly packed sensor, they should be ok. When I first bought my D800e many years ago I was disappointed I wasn't getting the resolution I had seen with others achieve with the new 36mp sensor. What I came to find out quite quickly is I needed to up my game. Tripod, shutter delay, etc. brought me to the sharpness and resolution the camera was built for.

If you want to test with RAFS's here is my PP routine which led to the image above and works quite well. Assuming my shot has not contributed to any motion blur, I first process the RAF with X-Transformer, then import to LR for minor adjustments with NO SHARPENING applied. Export (no output sharpening) to JPEG or TIFF (others may differ at this point). Examine the resultant file with PS and once satisfied (still no sharpening applied) save your file for the next step....use Topaz Sharpen AI. Topaz analyzes the image and presents initial settings. These are usually too aggressive so I dial it back. Once satisfied Topaz exports the file and then you have it. Higher ISO images with a moderate to high amount of noise is processed with Topaz Denoise first before Sharpen. Hope that helps.

I may have to go back to X transformer. I bought it for my X-T20 RAF images way back when. I've read elsewhere on the forums here that they've had better luck converting the new 40MP images with X transformer first.
Going to shoot and process a few images this week as it's looking more like user error. First test will be to try and verify if there's an actual focus issue however. If I can rule that out, than it's just a matter of learning how to manage the new 40 MP files for me.

I don’t own the T5 but do own the H2. In addition to managing larger files I would find it more difficult to keep the smaller T5 stable, hand held, when shooting. Even with the slightly larger H2 I try to have the shortest shutter speed possible for any non-tripod situation. But I am still considering the X-T5 for travel.

After shooting with the X-T20 for almost six years, this thing feels gigantic. Especially so with an L-bracket attached.

Indeed!  I own an X-T30 and I like taking it along at times because it doesn’t seem like one is carrying anything.

You should be able to verify the exact focus point on a full size JPEG in camera by pressing your focus mechanism (the rear wheel for me - as a bbf user) when reviewing the image and magnifying to the maximum (100%). Shoot wide open with the prime and in two or three focal settings on the zoom. You'll also want to do the test with the 23mm at f/8 to recreate the earlier shooting situations - as possibly the camera might be taking in the AF at wide open before stopping down resulting in focus error; that would be weird, but you want to eliminate the possibility. That will answer the question. Do not try to verify focus in camera with the raw image because you get very little magnification with the raw file thumbnail when reviewing.

My preference is to use the M setting rather than AF-s, but it probably doesn't make a difference. In M, you can magnify to see the focus point before taking the shot.

Your raw processor should have nothing to do with the focus problem, especially so considering the huge difference in apparent focus you're experiencing (front of magazine vs. flashlight switch).

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

I shot another image just now with a couple of changes. I didn't have single point AF selected so I did that. I turned AF + MF off though I wasn't touching the lens during the process before so not sure that changed anything but one more potential source of user error eliminated.

I shot on a tripod again, used the 2 sec delay. I placed the focus point over the word "Panasonic" on the lower right of the radio. Focus is where it's supposed be, no front or back focusing. I think this is a case of me 1) needing to adjust to a new focus system that is far more feature packed than my X-T20 2) learning how to properly compare images of different resolutions and 3) learning how to properly sharpen an image.

There's three images below (cropped to square in LR to save some space here). One JPEG SOOC, one RAF to JPEG with sharpening in LR and one RAF conversion in X-Transformer, then to LR for sharpening and export as JPEG. I think they're fine and I need to leave the zoom alone after all of this. Please let me know what you think.

JPEF SOOC

RAF to JPEG in LR. Only sharpening; amount 55, Radius 1.8, Detail 70, Masking 80

X-Transformer conversion, then to LR for sharpening and export as JPEG. Sharpening; amount 55, Radius 1.8, Detail 70, Masking 80

imnotmarvin wrote:

BobsYourUncle wrote:

A few questions.

RAF or OOC Jpeg? If RAF, what is your workflow?
When testing on the tripod did you do 2 or 10s delay? IS should be off but I you reported you did with and without but the image you posted is with.
As far as resolution goes the 18-55 is not on the "recommended list" but the 23/2 is.
You may want to try f/5.6 though I don't think diffraction is a major issue/

My initial testing was outside, hand held with an X-H2/16-55/2.8 and got the following full res image from RAW, sharpened with Topaz...... No issues here but let's try to see what can be done to determine if there is a problem with your cam.

I shot another image just now with a couple of changes. I didn't have single point AF selected so I did that. I turned AF + MF off though I wasn't touching the lens during the process before so not sure that changed anything but one more potential source of user error eliminated.

I shot on a tripod again, used the 2 sec delay. I placed the focus point over the word "Panasonic" on the lower right of the radio. Focus is where it's supposed be, no front or back focusing. I think this is a case of me 1) needing to adjust to a new focus system that is far more feature packed than my X-T20 2) learning how to properly compare images of different resolutions and 3) learning how to properly sharpen an image.

There's three images below (cropped to square in LR to save some space here). One JPEG SOOC, one RAF to JPEG with sharpening in LR and one RAF conversion in X-Transformer, then to LR for sharpening and export as JPEG. I think they're fine and I need to leave the zoom alone after all of this. Please let me know what you think.

JPEF SOOC

RAF to JPEG in LR. Only sharpening; amount 55, Radius 1.8, Detail 70, Masking 80

X-Transformer conversion, then to LR for sharpening and export as JPEG. Sharpening; amount 55, Radius 1.8, Detail 70, Masking 80

Looks as if everything is working.  I would try at faster apertures for a complete test.

The SOOC Jpeg looks better than the others but that may be my eyes or how the website is displaying the image.  You can determine best on your computer.

May I highly recommend Topaz Sharpen AI for your sharpening "tests."  I'm not really sure but you may be able to download a trial copy.  I have not financial ties to the company but find their algorithm or whatever they use as better than Adobe's tools.

At the end of the day you own a very high res camera that needs more feeding and care.  The big ?? factor is whether or not the Fuji lenses you own (and everyone else's) possess the ability to resolve detail to make prime use of the 40mp sensor.  Fuji provided that list but I wish there was a reliable standard short of having to purchase the new 56.  Furthermore, assuming the lens has the resolving capability, is it a good copy, with skew, or other defects?  My older 16-55 is as good as one could expect.  For a zoom it does what I want it to do as can be witnessed in the helicopter pic and right now lives on the H2.

Good luck with the testing and, for the moment, use the OOC Jpegs to test your focus.  That will be faster.  Once the testing is complete, have fun with the best way to sharpen your images.

I successfully exchanged my XT5 for an XH2 and although the two cameras share the same sensor and AF I can confirm that I am not experiencing the AF-S issues with the new XH2.

I consider myself fairly experienced and don’t consider the Problems to be user error.

Cream17 wrote:

I’ve read a fair few threads and and watched videos on the AF acquisition being a problem for the XT-5, however my issue has been on static subjects where I can only describe there being a back focus issue.

I’m a long time Fuji user (XE1, XT1, XT3) so feel I have a good understanding. My comparison with my XT3 has shown a difference in the focus. Where there is a muddy look to the shots and on closer inspection the focus is off.

I’ve used focus priority, tripod and decent shutter speeds…1/500 and I still appear to have had the issue consistently on 50% of image to a varying degree.

strange initially I was thinking it was user error, or one of the settings, but hacking by chance seen a discussion by another user with the same issue, then I acknowledged it was a camera issue.

will look at another body, or maybe an XH2. Would be interesting if this issue has manifested for others.
The million dollar question is whether Fuji has a firmware update in the works. There should at least be some acknowledgment.

Unfortunately this appears to be a major problem with the XT-5 and X-H2 line of cameras. There are numerous videos on youtube documenting the issue. Fuji needs to fix this quickly, some of the workarounds being suggested are nothing more than bandaids for a problem that shouldn't exist especially after Fuji marketed these cameras  claiming greatly improved autofocus!! HUH?  Seems crazy Sony  and Canon can produce cameras at half the cost which have autofocus so good it's an after thought and Fuji cameras you have to worry about everything, lighting, lens, camera settings. Just fix it Fuji!

Off topic, but do I spy Mudeford Spit and the top of Hengistbury Head in those shots?

notchy wrote:

Off topic, but do I spy Mudeford Spit and the top of Hengistbury Head in those shots?

Hahahah yes you do !!!