What do you all think of my quoting template?

Started Nov 30, 2022 | Discussions
Will Faulkner
OP Will Faulkner Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Need is a wonderful thing.

Now, I am not saying this is the strategy for everyone, or even for all situations. I am just saying that selling an unlimited license is not a crazy thing to consider.

Thanks Michael.

Thats great information and I appreciate you sharing it here.

A once off licensing fee might be a good balance between no licensing and repeating licensing.

I still feel that I need to feel out if the individual client is even in the position to pay a a license. Again there's a lot of work out there that I don't wont to miss out on just because they wouldn't expect to pay a license.

I recently completed the Karl Taylor on line education, well most of it, Karl's advise was similar to what other pros have said. Only charge licensing to businesses that are national or international entities. Attached here is a document that I use when I'm putting my quotes.

For this particular job that I am talking about in this post I feel I probably should have charged licensing as they are a national wholesale food manufacturer. But again I am trying to get a foot in the door and the customer seems happy so far. I feel much repeat business is imminent and I can always apply licensing to the next shoot I do for them.

ampimagedotcom
ampimagedotcom Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: Need is a wonderful thing.
1

Closing down this account by deleting the information provided before the 10th day of April 2023.

Cheers,
Ashley.
www.ampimage.com

Michael Fryd
Michael Fryd Forum Pro • Posts: 16,393
Re: Need is a wonderful thing.

Will Faulkner wrote:

Now, I am not saying this is the strategy for everyone, or even for all situations. I am just saying that selling an unlimited license is not a crazy thing to consider.

Thanks Michael.

Thats great information and I appreciate you sharing it here.

A once off licensing fee might be a good balance between no licensing and repeating licensing.

...

I assume you mean by "once off" you mean an unlimited perpetual license.

In that case, I see no need to itemize the license.  Just include the license price as part of your overall quote.  Include verbiage in the quote/invoice something like "...includes a non exclusive, perpetual license for use of images."

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rumple
rumple Senior Member • Posts: 2,641
Re: Need is a wonderful thing.
3

Will Faulkner wrote:

A once off licensing fee might be a good balance between no licensing and repeating licensing.

Yes, as commented on by Ashley and Michael.

there's a lot of work out there that I don't wont to miss out on just because they wouldn't expect to pay a license.

Are you missing out on making money, or are you missing out on losing money?

Only charge licensing to businesses that are national or international entities.

If everyone else gets unlimited at some low rate (aka "small business rate"), then the quality and speed of the work - your costs - needs to reflect that.

I feel I probably should have charged licensing as they are a national wholesale food manufacturer.

Yes.

But again I am trying to get a foot in the door and the customer seems happy so far.

As long as you understand that you have just set the rate you're going to work for, for this client, in perpetuity.  They will not likely agree to an uplift as you get busier.

I feel much repeat business is imminent

Yes, the "future business carrot" is much used in negotiation.  Sometimes it's real - but you can't pay your bills now with possible future business.  As the Brits say, 'a bird in hand is worth two in the bush'.

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"THINK" - Watson

Michael Fryd
Michael Fryd Forum Pro • Posts: 16,393
Re: Need is a wonderful thing.
4

Will Faulkner wrote:

...

...But again I am trying to get a foot in the door and the customer seems happy so far. I feel much repeat business is imminent and I can always apply licensing to the next shoot I do for them.

=

While you get your "foot in the door", you are also establishing your rates and terms.

I see many new photographers try to get their foot in the door by working at a deep discount, or for free. The problem is that the customer learns to think of that photographer as the deep discount guy.  If the photographer asks for higher rate, the client goes elsewhere.  After all, if they are going to pay a normal rate, they may as well hire someone who is good enough to command that rate.

.

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ampimagedotcom
ampimagedotcom Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Exclusive or non exclusive.
1

Closing down this account by deleting the information provided before the 10th day of April 2023.

Cheers,
Ashley.
www.ampimage.com

BAK Forum Pro • Posts: 26,191
Why can't you shoot finished pictures?

Does your retouching price mean 1 hour per selected  image at $100 an hour, or whatever fraction of an hour it takes to do the job, based on $100 for a full hour.

i.e. if it take a quarter of an hour to fix your shot, you charge $25.00.

BAK

Will Faulkner
OP Will Faulkner Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Why can't you shoot finished pictures?

I have tried to quote a fixed price.

I spoke verbally with the client and said I estimated that each shot should take 1 hour of retouching.

I charge retouching in 1 hr units.

Will Faulkner
OP Will Faulkner Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Just so you know.

Perhaps I am quoting the wrong way. I am prepared to try new things but I must be careful as this is how I feed my family. A shift in business management may be easier to do when you have a history of clients and licensing fees rolling in but I am not at that level and not ashamed to admit it. Pro photography is my 3rd long term career now

Now here's a video where Scott addresses when to charge licensing. And in other videos I have heard Scott talk about charging a day rate as a line item as well as all expenses like retouching as line items.

He says you need to determine the size of the client to determine if licensing should be applied. But how can we determine that? This decision needs to be removed from the quoting formula I think.

When to charge a licensing fee.

https://youtu.be/UyOVuw3zCMo

Also Mr Karl Taylors online photography business course recommends charging for labour, + expenses including file deliverywhich I don't think would fly down here

then only applying licensing to companies that are national or international companies. (But aren't all companies national ? ) . Seems to me that there is no universally accepted way of quoting clients across the globe.

amateurphotographer Senior Member • Posts: 1,416
Take into account local norms

Hi Will,

You are getting some good information here from established photographers.

I believe the responses are from established photographers based in the UK and USA/Canada. These countries have a very thorough way of setting out pricing and T&C/writing contracts. Maybe they can also share their experiences in their first couple of years on jobs, what their approach was?

But I think you are based in Australia, so I recommend you find out from other established photographers in Australia how they set out their pricing structure and T&C. Maybe there are pro photographer groups in Australia.

I gave this link before, (I have not read), but just from a Google Search

https://www.easylegaltemplates.com.au/shop/photography-contract/

might be a good starting point, as it was written by an Australian legal team for photographers.

There is a Professional Photographers Association of Queensland and Australian Photographic Society.

For me, in Asia, I tend to keep quotations to the point so the client can easily understand. I am mainly dealing with non-contractual/legal marketing personnel for clients, so it has to be written so they can easily understand it. Yes, some would say x y z about being protected/ risks involved, but this is just the way how it is done. Maybe my clients are more trusting:) Most clients here , just want to know a lump sum.

There's also no harm sending in draft quotation document without your numbers to the client to see if they like your approach.

Best.

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BAK Forum Pro • Posts: 26,191
Re: Why can't you shoot finished pictures?

Why do your pictures need hundreds of dollars worth of fixing? Your retoucher is making more money that you are, with 24 shots.

BAK

Will Faulkner
OP Will Faulkner Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Why can't you shoot finished pictures?

BAK wrote:

Why do your pictures need hundreds of dollars worth of fixing? Your retoucher is making more money that you are, with 24 shots.

BAK

My retoucher is a subcontractor on the other side of the world. I am making money on her hourly work. For this job I expect the total number of retouching hours to be more like 10. Most likely my retoucher will spend much more than 10 hours on it but will only charge me for 10. She has given a fixed price on the job as I requested and the client is happy to pay. Remember there are 28 images to be delivered in this particular job. Each will need cutting out, some composite work, toning work, back and forth with the client half a dozen times and more

Will Faulkner
OP Will Faulkner Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Take into account local norms

Sure. Catering to the market is a major factor in quoting. Cheers.

ampimagedotcom
ampimagedotcom Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: Just so you know.

Will Faulkner wrote:

But aren't all companies national ?

Some of my clients are what I would call "Local" because they would only sell 'their thing' in Ireland , for example, or even just in the north of Ireland - and so they would only need to use my images in that one small part of the world...

.. whereas others I would call "National" because they may want to use my images throughout the UK & Ireland , since that would be their market...

.. and then there would be "International" which could mean they sell across Europe or even throughout the World.

However, just because they sell 'their thing' throughout the world, that doesn't automatically mean that they will want to use my images throughout the World - because they may only want to use my images in their local ads or in their local marketing material, for example... which is very often the case.

Which is why the fee is based on the use of the work, e.g. the Territory of use - rather on the size of the company.

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Cheers,
Ashley.
www.ampimage.com

ampimagedotcom
ampimagedotcom Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: Take into account local norms

amateurphotographer wrote:

Maybe they can also share their experiences in their first couple of years on jobs, what their approach was?

I would have ask people to hire me and pay me for 'my time & expenses to do the work' when I first started, because I started before the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 was passed.

So I know how that works, as well as how licensing works, as a result.

Today, I would pay my assistants for their time & expenses to help me do the work, and then I would charge my clients for a licence to use that work.

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Cheers,
Ashley.
www.ampimage.com

Michael Fryd
Michael Fryd Forum Pro • Posts: 16,393
Re: Take into account local norms

ampimagedotcom wrote:

amateurphotographer wrote:

Maybe they can also share their experiences in their first couple of years on jobs, what their approach was?

I would have ask people to hire me and pay me for 'my time & expenses to do the work' when I first started, because I started before the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 was passed.

So I know how that works, as well as how licensing works, as a result.

Today, I would pay my assistants for their time & expenses to help me do the work, and then I would charge my clients for a licence to use that work.

There are many different market segments.

I may very well be wrong, but I have gotten the impression that you may be doing a lot of high end architectural photography, and your typical clients might be magazines (or owners of high end properties).

I can very well see how a limited use business model can work in that environment.

Do you do a lot of work i other market segments?

.

Consider a situation where someone wants a single large print of a photo of their mansion to hang on the wall in their office.   Would you pay your assistants for their time and expenses, and charge the client only a low licensing fee?  After that all, they only want one copy of the print, so it will have extremely low distribution, and be limited to a very small geographic area.

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ampimagedotcom
ampimagedotcom Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: Take into account local norms
1

Closing down this account by deleting the information provided before the 10th day of April 2023.

Cheers,
Ashley.
www.ampimage.com

Will Faulkner
OP Will Faulkner Forum Member • Posts: 53
Re: Just so you know.
1

Which is why the fee is based on the use of the work, e.g. the Territory of use - rather on the size of the company.

Sure that makes sense.

ampimagedotcom
ampimagedotcom Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: Just so you know.

Closing down this account by deleting the information provided before the 10th day of April 2023.

Cheers,
Ashley.
www.ampimage.com

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