Torn between MFT camera options to buy as a beginner for casual photography

Sensenacai wrote:

grsnovi wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

...The issue is that I have no way of trying out the GX85...

Is this really a life or death decision?

If you buy it and you end up hating it you can sell it to MPB.

Yes, you'll lose money.

Is this the last camera you ever expect to purchase?

It's a great little camera that will support all of the great Oly and Panny MFT lenses.

Except I'm not looking to lose money.

And I expect to purchase a camera without having to buy / upgrade to another for years.

Obviously from your responses, the budget is your overriding parameter. Photography with dedicated (non phone) camera gear can be a very expensive hobby and, at the least, will never be cheap. But if not losing money on this hobby is your goal, I might suggest another hobby. You can minimize the loss, but as others have said, that requires buying used and having the patience to seek out sites that cater to photographers (not eBay) and have buy and sell options, or buying from online sources that inventory used gear. MPB, KEH, Roberts Camera, B&H, and Adorama are all respected sources.

However, to lose the least money in this hobby requires that you are willing to forego the kind of hands on shopping afforded by the big box stores. Sooner or later you have to take that leap of faith….or pay a higher price, no free lunch unfortunately.

Another point, the only folks that I know of that bought their first camera and didn’t upgrade or add on for years are those that put the camera gear in the closet and took up fishing as a hobby, instead. Just be forewarned.

Sensenacai wrote:

grsnovi wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

...The issue is that I have no way of trying out the GX85...

Is this really a life or death decision?

If you buy it and you end up hating it you can sell it to MPB.

Yes, you'll lose money.

Is this the last camera you ever expect to purchase?

It's a great little camera that will support all of the great Oly and Panny MFT lenses.

Except I'm not looking to lose money.

And I expect to purchase a camera without having to buy / upgrade to another for years.

If you want to avoid losing much money, buy used from a reputable dealer.

Think of your first ILC as something to discover whether photography excites you enough to put time and money into it.  You will know after no more than three years.  Then you can either sell or trade in for an upgrade.

If you upgrade, you will know much better what you are looking for.

I’ve tried hard to buy used and grey market.  It’s worked for me, but sometimes it made sense to buy new.

If it does excite you, there will be things that make you wish you had bought slightly better gear well within three years.

We are all different, so maybe you won’t follow the paths I’ve mentioned.

Andrew

Sensenacai wrote:

...I expect to purchase a camera without having to buy / upgrade to another for years.

You should probably buy a new camera then and not be wondering about a camera introduced 6+ years ago.

gary0319 wrote:

Obviously from your responses, the budget is your overriding parameter. Photography with dedicated (non phone) camera gear can be a very expensive hobby and, at the least, will never be cheap. But if not losing money on this hobby is your goal, I might suggest another hobby. You can minimize the loss, but as others have said, that requires buying used and having the patience to seek out sites that cater to photographers (not eBay) and have buy and sell options, or buying from online sources that inventory used gear. MPB, KEH, Roberts Camera, B&H, and Adorama are all respected sources.

However, to lose the least money in this hobby requires that you are willing to forego the kind of hands on shopping afforded by the big box stores. Sooner or later you have to take that leap of faith….or pay a higher price, no free lunch unfortunately.

Another point, the only folks that I know of that bought their first camera and didn’t upgrade or add on for years are those that put the camera gear in the closet and took up fishing as a hobby, instead. Just be forewarned.

Those are valid points.

Since it will be my first camera I will be buying, I think I'm likely to purchase a used camera from B&H with a protection plan if I go the used route. They at least show you at the checkout how much customs fees and taxes you're expected to pay and give you the option to pre-pay them.

I often see a GX7, GX85 or E-M10 II either as a body or with their kit lens(es) and basic accessories appear in their used department in good condition for less than or just shy of $400 USD.

Truth be told, the average smart phone camera is so good it’s nearly killed the point and shoot cameras.

The atomic clocks on smart phones have hurt wristwatches, too.

But I still carry a pocket watch at my farm, and toss my Oly M5.2 and 12-40 Pro lens in the back of my Rhino.

To learn photography you need a real camera, with a detachable lens, and not a phone that also takes pictures.

Why I like Olympus cameras instead of Panasonic is that Olympus (now OM) has made real cameras all my life of 64 years and nothing else.  Panasonic makes a full frame camera for those that can afford it and MFT cameras for those that can’t.  They also make wonderful microwave ovens.

My 12-40 Pro lens cost somebody a thousand dollars and my OMD-M5.2 cost another thousand, and it’s a pro grade outfit worth every penny of it’s new cost.

I used to recommend an Olympus Pen Lite 1, but the M5.2 is so vastly better it’s an even better bargain.

My M5.2 can do everything anyone could possibly want a camera to do to learn the hobby of photography.

It takes every MFT lens ever made.

With a ten dollar adapter it stabilizes every 35 mm film camera “legacy lens” ever made.

This phone X cost a thousand dollars in 2020 and it’s nearly worthless.  New iPhone 14s have obsoleted it.

The lens on my M5.2 is still worth the $400 it cost and the M5.2 is really nothing more than a lens holder for it.

A new M-5 is $1,200 and hardly any better than an OMD-5.2, just newer.

Save your money for lenses.

Learn photography on an OMD-M5.2

ahaslett wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

grsnovi wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

...The issue is that I have no way of trying out the GX85...

Is this really a life or death decision?

If you buy it and you end up hating it you can sell it to MPB.

Yes, you'll lose money.

Is this the last camera you ever expect to purchase?

It's a great little camera that will support all of the great Oly and Panny MFT lenses.

Except I'm not looking to lose money.

And I expect to purchase a camera without having to buy / upgrade to another for years.

If you want to avoid losing much money, buy used from a reputable dealer.

Think of your first ILC as something to discover whether photography excites you enough to put time and money into it. You will know after no more than three years. Then you can either sell or trade in for an upgrade.

If you upgrade, you will know much better what you are looking for.

I’ve tried hard to buy used and grey market. It’s worked for me, but sometimes it made sense to buy new.

If it does excite you, there will be things that make you wish you had bought slightly better gear well within three years.

We are all different, so maybe you won’t follow the paths I’ve mentioned.

Andrew

Yes, I'm thinking of buying from B&H if I go for a used camera from their used department as they offer multi-year protection plans and show you the calculated customs fees and taxes at the checkout with the option of pre-paying them.

Richard2Go wrote:

I’ve had a GX85 for many years, and recently picked up a like new G95, more out of want than need. The G95 is quite competent and I have absolutely no complaints about the results, but whether it’s laziness or inertia or resistance to change, I think I might prefer the GX85. The GX85 to me just has some kind of secret sauce to it — it doesn’t have any features that are “best in class,” but as an all-around, lightweight tool for almost any situation (at least any situation I face), it’s really hard to beat.

I agree that the GX85 seems like a balanced package for its price, form factor and as a starter camera.

UrbanHobbit wrote:

It sounds like this will be a big transition, going from smartphone to a system camera. Perhaps the best and lowest-risk path involves borrowing a mirrorless camera from a friend, to understand what the experience will be like. Most modern digital cameras have similar enough feature sets and controls, and – dare I say – image quality for you to tell if this is the way forward for you.

If I knew anyone with an ILC / mirrorless camera I could borrow to try out, I would have done that long ago but I don't. Good suggestion though.

Sensenacai wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

grsnovi wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

...The issue is that I have no way of trying out the GX85...

Is this really a life or death decision?

If you buy it and you end up hating it you can sell it to MPB.

Yes, you'll lose money.

Is this the last camera you ever expect to purchase?

It's a great little camera that will support all of the great Oly and Panny MFT lenses.

Except I'm not looking to lose money.

And I expect to purchase a camera without having to buy / upgrade to another for years.

If you want to avoid losing much money, buy used from a reputable dealer.

Think of your first ILC as something to discover whether photography excites you enough to put time and money into it. You will know after no more than three years. Then you can either sell or trade in for an upgrade.

If you upgrade, you will know much better what you are looking for.

I’ve tried hard to buy used and grey market. It’s worked for me, but sometimes it made sense to buy new.

If it does excite you, there will be things that make you wish you had bought slightly better gear well within three years.

We are all different, so maybe you won’t follow the paths I’ve mentioned.

Andrew

Yes, I'm thinking of buying from B&H if I go for a used camera from their used department as they offer multi-year protection plans and show you the calculated customs fees and taxes at the checkout with the option of pre-paying them.

Sounds like a plan.

I like the 12-32 kit, the 20/1.7, PL 25/1.4 (mk i is cheaper for both of those and optically similar to mk ii), and the Olympus 40-150 R.  Alternatively the 35-100/2.8 mk i is an excellent lens and the OIS is important.  I have the 35-100 kit lens and my copy of the 40-150 R is better.

The 12-32 is a good place to start, and a used 35-100/2.8 would be my next purchase after 3-6 months.  With 60/2.8 you can do reasonable head and shoulders portraits.  If you want to specialise in portraits, the 56mm has a good rep.

Andrew

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

Obviously from your responses, the budget is your overriding parameter. Photography with dedicated (non phone) camera gear can be a very expensive hobby and, at the least, will never be cheap. But if not losing money on this hobby is your goal, I might suggest another hobby. You can minimize the loss, but as others have said, that requires buying used and having the patience to seek out sites that cater to photographers (not eBay) and have buy and sell options, or buying from online sources that inventory used gear. MPB, KEH, Roberts Camera, B&H, and Adorama are all respected sources.

However, to lose the least money in this hobby requires that you are willing to forego the kind of hands on shopping afforded by the big box stores. Sooner or later you have to take that leap of faith….or pay a higher price, no free lunch unfortunately.

Another point, the only folks that I know of that bought their first camera and didn’t upgrade or add on for years are those that put the camera gear in the closet and took up fishing as a hobby, instead. Just be forewarned.

Those are valid points.

Since it will be my first camera I will be buying, I think I'm likely to purchase a used camera from B&H with a protection plan if I go the used route. They at least show you at the checkout how much customs fees and taxes you're expected to pay and give you the option to pre-pay them.

I often see a GX7, GX85 or E-M10 II either as a body or with their kit lens(es) and basic accessories appear in their used department in good condition for less than or just shy of $400 USD.

Good plan! B&H is a safe route, with a good return policy (at least on new gear).

My first M43 was the GX7 and I was never disappointed with the results. I found a deal on an E-M10 (original version) and picked it up to try the other M43 "flavor", and used them both side by side for some time. Eventually I decided to remain with the Olympus because, being left eye dominant, I preferred the center EVF.

Either way you will get a good start, and B&H takes a lot of the risk out of the deal.

Projectdb wrote:

Price to performance there isn't a better deal out there than a used EM1 II. They're going under 500 USD on eBay currently. Map Camera is a very reliable seller.

I have no idea why this is bolded... anyway.  I agree, while you can I'd scoop up an EM1.2 MPB.com is a great place to get them from.  I got mine from there and it was in better shape then they claimed and I chose to get the Like New model - mine was new (0 shutter actuations, it just didn't come with the FL-L3 flash). I got mine for $775 USD but I know they're a lot less now.  Great camera.

ahaslett wrote:

Sounds like a plan.

I like the 12-32 kit, the 20/1.7, PL 25/1.4 (mk i is cheaper for both of those and optically similar to mk ii), and the Olympus 40-150 R. Alternatively the 35-100/2.8 mk i is an excellent lens and the OIS is important. I have the 35-100 kit lens and my copy of the 40-150 R is better.

The 12-32 is a good place to start, and a used 35-100/2.8 would be my next purchase after 3-6 months. With 60/2.8 you can do reasonable head and shoulders portraits. If you want to specialise in portraits, the 56mm has a good rep.

Andrew

The Lumix 25mm f/1.7 also looks like a decent compact and inexpensive starter prime lens.

Sensenacai wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Sounds like a plan.

I like the 12-32 kit, the 20/1.7, PL 25/1.4 (mk i is cheaper for both of those and optically similar to mk ii), and the Olympus 40-150 R. Alternatively the 35-100/2.8 mk i is an excellent lens and the OIS is important. I have the 35-100 kit lens and my copy of the 40-150 R is better.

The 12-32 is a good place to start, and a used 35-100/2.8 would be my next purchase after 3-6 months. With 60/2.8 you can do reasonable head and shoulders portraits. If you want to specialise in portraits, the 56mm has a good rep.

Andrew

The Lumix 25mm f/1.7 also looks like a decent compact and inexpensive starter prime lens.

I’m sure that’s true but Janet said the PL25/1.4 was the better lens and I trust her judgement on lenses.  For £250, I couldn’t go wrong.  AF not blazing  fast but rendering is good.

Andrew

gary0319 wrote:

Good plan! B&H is a safe route, with a good return policy (at least on new gear).

My first M43 was the GX7 and I was never disappointed with the results. I found a deal on an E-M10 (original version) and picked it up to try the other M43 "flavor", and used them both side by side for some time. Eventually I decided to remain with the Olympus because, being left eye dominant, I preferred the center EVF.

Either way you will get a good start, and B&H takes a lot of the risk out of the deal.

I was told elsewhere that the GX7 still produces great image quality for today's standards but you did mention a few comments back that the tech in it is quite old.

NowHearThis wrote:

Projectdb wrote:

Price to performance there isn't a better deal out there than a used EM1 II. They're going under 500 USD on eBay currently. Map Camera is a very reliable seller.

I have no idea why this is bolded... anyway. I agree, while you can I'd scoop up an EM1.2 MPB.com is a great place to get them from. I got mine from there and it was in better shape then they claimed and I chose to get the Like New model - mine was new (0 shutter actuations, it just didn't come with the FL-L3 flash). I got mine for $775 USD but I know they're a lot less now. Great camera.

This E-M1 II in Like New condition on MPB costs $579 USD and that sounds like a snatch but is almost $800 in CAD, which might not be too bad for a high-end model.

My gripe with MPB is that compared to B&H, MPB doesn't offer free shipping to Canada or shows you at the checkout how much customs fees and taxes you're expected to pay with the option to pre-pay them like B&H does. They don't offer protection plans or extended warranties either but their prices do look decent for the physical conditions they sell their cameras at.

If you are looking for a deal this week I saw the g7 on amazon on sale for about 499usd.

The g85 is better in general though.

any of the items you mentioned will work for learning photography.

so good luck.

Sensenacai wrote:

Here in Canada we don't have reputable companies with large secondhand inventories like B&H, MPB, KEH or Adorama…

Try Henry's . They've got a sale on right now.

… I've mostly been browsing Kijiji (Canadian verison of Craigslist), Facebook's Marketplace or Buy/Sell groups…

Good choice! My very best deals have come from Victoria.CraigsList.org. But you have to be patient. Set up your filter and check it often. I got a Pen F for C$500 that way!

There's this Olympus E-M5 II body I found on kijiji for $450 CAD being sold by someone with high ratings/reviews.

Sounds like a plan!

Avoid evilBay. Prices are higher than you'll see on UsedVictoria, CraigsList, or Kijiji.

If you find a nice body, I have a couple Sigma prime lenses for around US$120. (Came with the Pen F, and I never use them.) Let me know if interested.

Buy this: https://www.henrys.com/used-olympus-omd-e-m5-silver-8/5637235934.p

Woo! Solved it! Enjoy all the leftover money!

I know you said Henrys is bad, but you didn't explain why. I've had great results buying used from them and they have a two week return window if it's not what you expected.