Torn between MFT camera options to buy as a beginner for casual photography

larsbc wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

At the moment I'm feeling torn between the Lumix GX85, G85 and Olympus E-M5 II. The trouble here is that none of these cameras are available on display in any store in my city for me to test out. There's a Best Buy that has a G7 I tested out which I guess is nearly identical to the G85 and that's about it.

I personally lean towards the rangefinder aesthetic of the GX85 but my main concern with that camera that may completely deter me from buying it is the field-sequential viewfinder. I've read and listened to many complaints about the GX85's EVF such as rainbow tearing artifacts, a blurry image, the EVF lens being made of plastic, uneven viewing angles and the display image being cropped by the 16:9 aspect ratio. Because I'm unable to find one to test out, I'm hesitant to make a decision on buying the GX85 if I don't know what I will see from peering into its EVF. I peered into the EVFs of the Lumix G7, Sony A6000 and A6400 that were on display at Best Buy and the image looked great since they are using OLED(?) panels for the EVF and I'm worried the GX85 EVF will look worse by comparison.

If you're in the Vancouver area I can let you try my GX9 to get a sense of what the GX85's EVF is like.

I'm all the way over in Ontario, unfortunately.

PhotonBeam wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

I bought an E-M5 II on Fred Miranda from a guy in Canada. I presume it can go the other way as well.

PhotonBeam wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

I've taken a look at the Fred Miranda forum and I don't even want to begin figuring out how that website works. The interface looks so outdated.

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

I’ll go along with Josh on the tilting viewfinder. The GX7 was my first m43 camera, great camera but kind of ancient tech by todays standards, but back then it did wean me from the Canons I had been shooting. Anyway, the GX7 has the tilt viewfinder and I used it….twice. I think the second time I used it was to confirm that I could find no practical use for it, at least for my use case.

It would have been cool if more cameras had a tilting viewfinder as an option for when it comes in handy.

Just curious, when is it needed? Panasonic made a bunch of these tilting EVF so there must be some condition that is escaping me.

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

I've taken a look at the Fred Miranda forum and I don't even want to begin figuring out how that website works. The interface looks so outdated.

Don't mean to be harsh, but you have received a lot of good advice from people trying to help you out, and you seem to have a reason to discount almost all of it.

If the Fred Miranda site is too difficult for you, maybe sticking with the cell phone would be a better idea, after all.

gary0319 wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

I’ll go along with Josh on the tilting viewfinder. The GX7 was my first m43 camera, great camera but kind of ancient tech by todays standards, but back then it did wean me from the Canons I had been shooting. Anyway, the GX7 has the tilt viewfinder and I used it….twice. I think the second time I used it was to confirm that I could find no practical use for it, at least for my use case.

It would have been cool if more cameras had a tilting viewfinder as an option for when it comes in handy.

Just curious, when is it needed? Panasonic made a bunch of these tilting EVF so there must be some condition that is escaping me.

Maybe for framing/composing at tight angles.

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

I’ll go along with Josh on the tilting viewfinder. The GX7 was my first m43 camera, great camera but kind of ancient tech by todays standards, but back then it did wean me from the Canons I had been shooting. Anyway, the GX7 has the tilt viewfinder and I used it….twice. I think the second time I used it was to confirm that I could find no practical use for it, at least for my use case.

It would have been cool if more cameras had a tilting viewfinder as an option for when it comes in handy.

Just curious, when is it needed? Panasonic made a bunch of these tilting EVF so there must be some condition that is escaping me.

Maybe for framing/composing at tight angles.

I guess that would be one, but I've never had an occasion to really want to do that. Thanks.

gary0319 wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

I've taken a look at the Fred Miranda forum and I don't even want to begin figuring out how that website works. The interface looks so outdated.

Don't mean to be harsh, but you have received a lot of good advice from people trying to help you out, and you seem to have a reason to discount almost all of it.

If the Fred Miranda site is too difficult for you, maybe sticking with the cell phone would be a better idea, after all.

I don't have a lot of money laying around so I'm being as diligent as I can with deciding on what I will end up buying and from where or from who.

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

I've taken a look at the Fred Miranda forum and I don't even want to begin figuring out how that website works. The interface looks so outdated.

Don't mean to be harsh, but you have received a lot of good advice from people trying to help you out, and you seem to have a reason to discount almost all of it.

If the Fred Miranda site is too difficult for you, maybe sticking with the cell phone would be a better idea, after all.

I don't have a lot of money laying around so I'm being as diligent as I can with deciding on what I will end up buying and from where or from who.

Fair enough, good luck.

Aberaeron wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

I’ll go along with Josh on the tilting viewfinder. The GX7 was my first m43 camera, great camera but kind of ancient tech by todays standards, but back then it did wean me from the Canons I had been shooting. Anyway, the GX7 has the tilt viewfinder and I used it….twice. I think the second time I used it was to confirm that I could find no practical use for it, at least for my use case.

It would have been cool if more cameras had a tilting viewfinder as an option for when it comes in handy.

People seem to prefer using the tilting or fully articulated LCD screens rather than tilting viewfinders on the whole. Three different means to the same end except you can’t see when shooting from up high with a tilting EVF while you can with the 3” screens.

True. I imagine a tilting EVF could be useful in a situation where there the angle for capturing an image is tight or where space is limited and pulling the camera further back towards yourself that the only available view is from the EVF tilted at 90 degrees could make a big difference.

Sensenacai wrote:

I imagine a tilting EVF could be useful in a situation where there the angle for capturing an image is tight or where space is limited and pulling the camera further back towards yourself that the only available view is from the EVF tilted at 90 degrees could make a big difference.

For some of us, if we don't like what we buy we can just return it or sell it. I get it that not everyone has that luxury and you want to make the best decision you can at this point. Camera gear is not cheap and when you have budget constraints it makes it harder. However, TBH, it seems like you are overthinking everything. Your posted photos are pretty good. Of course, if the EVF bothers you it won't be a good choice, so maybe you should just use your cell phone camera until you can get to a brick and mortar store somewhere and see firsthand what works for you.

Nothing is perfect and sometimes you end up kissing a lot of frogs. If you have no experience with adjustable digital cameras, you will almost have to get sucked into learning about aperture, shutter speed, ISO, depth of field, noise, post processing, lens choices, and a host of other technical variables, not to mention the artistic elements. It can be a slippery and expensive slope, but just about any adjustable camera will be fine for a beginner.  In the end you might decide it's not worth the expense or the effort and that the cell phone was good enough.

David5833 wrote:

For some of us, if we don't like what we buy we can just return it or sell it. I get it that not everyone has that luxury and you want to make the best decision you can at this point. Camera gear is not cheap and when you have budget constraints it makes it harder. However, TBH, it seems like you are overthinking everything. Your posted photos are pretty good. Of course, if the EVF bothers you it won't be a good choice, so maybe you should just use your cell phone camera until you can get to a brick and mortar store somewhere and see firsthand what works for you.

Nothing is perfect and sometimes you end up kissing a lot of frogs. If you have no experience with adjustable digital cameras, you will almost have to get sucked into learning about aperture, shutter speed, ISO, depth of field, noise, post processing, lens choices, and a host of other technical variables, not to mention the artistic elements. It can be a slippery and expensive slope, but just about any adjustable camera will be fine for a beginner. In the end you might decide it's not worth the expense or the effort and that the cell phone was good enough.

Usually my overthinking pays off in most cases, particularly when it comes to buying technology and so I always want to get the absolute best my budget can afford with no room for regret.

But I'm in need of a digital camera because there are many moments where I want to take a picture of something but the cameras on my phone prove to be inadequate to capture it or produce underwhelming results even after exhausting the limited manual controls and I'm left wishing I had something more capable.

I have contemplated upgrading to the recently released Sony Xperia 5 IV that has rare features missing from many phones like a headphone jack, microSD slot support up to 1TB, 120Hz OLED display with no notch or camera punch hole, a 21:9 aspect ratio, a dedicated camera shutter button, and Sony's own dedicated photography and video apps with features and manual controls from their Alpha cameras... but the thing costs over $1000 CAD and I thought why not find an interchangeable lens camera for less than that.

Learning about digital cameras and lenses has been overwhelming and frustrating but I feel fairly sure that investing in one will be worth it that will serve my needs for years to come.

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

I've taken a look at the Fred Miranda forum and I don't even want to begin figuring out how that website works. The interface looks so outdated.

Do you rather have a bargain, or a flash looking website?

Sometimes luck will find you a bargain where you did not expect one to be. Then you have to decide quickly or it slips away. But in general, you have to put in some time and work. Sometimes a lot. If that is not acceptable, there is always new and refurbished off the shelf.

In my experience it always costs time, new or used. If new, you earn all the required money by converting your time into a wage, and pay income tax on it. If used you spend much/most of your time searchning, comparing, investigating and bartering. Pick what you like doing best.

I spent a year finding my two GM5, at the price and in the condition that I wanted.

Sensenacai wrote:

...The issue is that I have no way of trying out the GX85...

Is this really a life or death decision?

If you buy it and you end up hating it you can sell it to MPB.

Yes, you'll lose money.

Is this the last camera you ever expect to purchase?

It's a great little camera that will support all of the great Oly and Panny MFT lenses.

It sounds like this will be a big transition, going from smartphone to a system camera. Perhaps the best and lowest-risk path involves borrowing a mirrorless camera from a friend, to understand what the experience will be like. Most modern digital cameras have similar enough feature sets and controls, and – dare I say – image quality for you to tell if this is the way forward for you.

Sensenacai wrote:

Eric-P wrote:

I think your reservations for the GX85 EVF is unfounded.. IMO it is a perfectly fine EVF in most conditions. I only see the RGB effects when I am shooting fast moving objects or doing quick panning. If you really like the rangefinder style camera, then this is the one to go for.. There are many gx85 / gx9 happy users, and despite various negative reviews, you don't see many actual users complaining..

I have an E-M1 mkii and X-T2, both with excellent EVF, and I don't have any issues switching between those and my GX9.

I would recommend getting the GX85 with the pana 20mm f1.7, as it's a stellar combination. The 20mm f1.7 is super compact, all--round lens that is sharp, focuses close, and a 2-stop advantage over the kit-zoom. -So big advantage in low light, and great shallow DOF (for closer objects) when you want to play with this. (You may need to consider buying used to get this combo within budget.)

I disagree that my reservations about the GX85 EVF are unfounded because I have little to no way of trying one out unless I buy this kit from Amazon for close to $1000 CAD after taxes with no complete certainty that I will be able to return it if I dislike the EVF.

That link is sold by Amazon and says returns are valid until Jan 31st. If it was sold by a third party I'd be worried but it appears that one is safe.

grsnovi wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

...The issue is that I have no way of trying out the GX85...

Is this really a life or death decision?

If you buy it and you end up hating it you can sell it to MPB.

Yes, you'll lose money.

Is this the last camera you ever expect to purchase?

It's a great little camera that will support all of the great Oly and Panny MFT lenses.

Except I'm not looking to lose money.

And I expect to purchase a camera without having to buy / upgrade to another for years.