Torn between MFT camera options to buy as a beginner for casual photography

Aberaeron wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Have you tried The Camera Store at Calgary? Haven’t been there myself but it’s fairly well known by some people on this web site apparently.

I've checked their open box deals page multiple times and there's nothing there that I'm looking for. I've done the same with other highly reputed retailers like Camera Canada and there's nothing I'm looking for in their Clearance & Used section either.

There's also Henry's which appears to be the largest camera retailer in Canada but it's said that they used to be better and now they don't have much of a positive track record anymore so I wouldn't trust buying anything from them.

Aberaeron wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

cba_melbourne wrote:

Those are all static pictures in your collection. Some nice ones though.

I suggest you make up your mind before spending money. Do you want to continue with mostly static pictures? Or was this due to the limitations of phones, and you would really like a camera with fast AF to capture things in motion, maybe even wildlife?

If it is the former, something like a new GX85 kit or the old EM5.2 will serve you perfectly well.

If it is the latter, better consider something like an EM1 mk2, bigger and heavier but has fast pdaf and is currently an excellent bargain new or used. And should also be within your budget.

***

wrt the sequential EVF, a minority people are sensitive to flickering, the majority of people are not. I personally cannot see the flickering, no matter how hard I try. I am perfectly fine with field sequential displays. Maybe this video helps to explain what some people see:

I think it's because of the limitations of my phone that I mainly take static images but a camera with a fast autofocus / PDAF could open up the possibility of capturing things in motion.

Used E-M1 II bodies have been rather difficult to find here but those selling it have priced at above $800 CAD and most do not offer shipping. My other only choice to get one would be a used body from B&H that with the import duties and taxes and protection plan at the checkout amounts to $1160+ CAD after currency conversion.

I thought that the UK was overpriced but that takes the biscuit.

Just 18 months ago I bought a brand new grey market E-M1 MkII from a UK based retailer, body only, for UK£640. Just realised that in C$990. Didn’t realise that the Canadian Dollar was as weak or weaker than the British Pound in a historical context.

A stale and old biscuit sadly.

Aberaeron wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

Eric-P wrote:

I think your reservations for the GX85 EVF is unfounded.. IMO it is a perfectly fine EVF in most conditions. I only see the RGB effects when I am shooting fast moving objects or doing quick panning. If you really like the rangefinder style camera, then this is the one to go for.. There are many gx85 / gx9 happy users, and despite various negative reviews, you don't see many actual users complaining..

I have an E-M1 mkii and X-T2, both with excellent EVF, and I don't have any issues switching between those and my GX9.

I would recommend getting the GX85 with the pana 20mm f1.7, as it's a stellar combination. The 20mm f1.7 is super compact, all--round lens that is sharp, focuses close, and a 2-stop advantage over the kit-zoom. -So big advantage in low light, and great shallow DOF (for closer objects) when you want to play with this. (You may need to consider buying used to get this combo within budget.)

I disagree that my reservations about the GX85 EVF are unfounded because I have little to no way of trying one out unless I buy this kit from Amazon for close to $1000 CAD after taxes with no complete certainty that I will be able to return it if I dislike the EVF.

$863. Does that not include taxes?

Here is alink to the UK price with 11-32 kit lens, 20% VAT included. C$695 at today’s conversion rate.

At least here you can return Amazon products free of charge and for a full refund or swap for an alternative product after trying them out if you do not like them.

$863 is the price before taxes. After taxes it's $975 CAD is which is close to $1000.

Sales taxes are usually not included in prices here in Canada except in Quebec it sometimes is, so you have to calculate it manually. In the province I live in (Ontario), the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) is %13.

Products sold and shipped by Amazon here can be returned free of charge as well but if you pay with a credit card, which I use for collecting points, they only refund in online store credit. But if I'm about spend close to $1000 CAD, I become more paranoid about not being able to return something and being stuck with refunded online store credit that I have to spend exclusively on Amazon.

Sensenacai wrote:

$863 is the price before taxes. After taxes it's $975 CAD is which is close to $1000.

Sales taxes are usually not included in prices here in Canada except in Quebec it sometimes is, so you have to calculate it manually. In the province I live in (Ontario), the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) is %13.

Products sold and shipped by Amazon here can be returned free of charge as well but if you pay with a credit card, which I use for collecting points, they only refund in online store credit. But if I'm about spend close to $1000 CAD, I become more paranoid about not being able to return something and being stuck with refunded online store credit that I have to spend exclusively on Amazon.

I don't know about Amazon Canada, but here in US I had no problem getting refunds back into my credit card (just choose the option when you do the return). If it is no fault of them, they may charge you shipping, but usually they have plenty of free drop off locations (UPS store, Whole foods, or a Amazon store location).

AshleyMC wrote:

Products sold and shipped by Amazon here can be returned free of charge as well but if you pay with a credit card, which I use for collecting points, they only refund in online store credit.

That is new news to me, an Amazon.ca Prime member.

My last return was in August, and the full refunded amount was put back to the original payment instrument which was a credit card.

Briefly after I presented the package and Canada Post scanned the return-shipping label (and electromagically notified Amazon), the amount appeared in my online credit-card summary.

In addition, they acknowledged my complaint accompanying the return and put a store credit of CAD 20 into my account, which would be automatically activated during my next checkout.

Anyway…

Hmm.. I'm probably not remembering right then.

I haven't bought anything from Amazon for close to a year and the last time I returned something was somewhere past that but the last few times I got refunded, which was for products I should have been able to return but wasn't asked to, they only refunded me with store credit.

The only time I was refunded directly back to my credit card was for cancelling a Prime membership on Amazon.com that was advertised as being free for a trial (for regional US customers?) but somehow wasn't.

edited* a few times for missing details

JakeJY wrote:

Sensenacai wrote:

$863 is the price before taxes. After taxes it's $975 CAD is which is close to $1000.

Sales taxes are usually not included in prices here in Canada except in Quebec it sometimes is, so you have to calculate it manually. In the province I live in (Ontario), the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) is %13.

Products sold and shipped by Amazon here can be returned free of charge as well but if you pay with a credit card, which I use for collecting points, they only refund in online store credit. But if I'm about spend close to $1000 CAD, I become more paranoid about not being able to return something and being stuck with refunded online store credit that I have to spend exclusively on Amazon.

I don't know about Amazon Canada, but here in US I had no problem getting refunds back into my credit card (just choose the option when you do the return). If it is no fault of them, they may charge you shipping, but usually they have plenty of free drop off locations (UPS store, Whole foods, or a Amazon store location).

During the second experience that I had for being refunded I asked if I will be refunded with store credit like the first time or if I can have my money refunded back to my credit card and they said they can only refund me with store credit and the same thing happened for the next few refunds.

AshleyMC wrote:

Would you be happy if any store did that “store credit” maneuver on you?

Not Best Buys, not Henry’s, not Office Depot, not Apple, not Bed Bath And Beyond, not Walmart… not that I know of. When a merchandise in acceptable condition is returned within the advertised return period, the refund amount is put back to the original payment instrument, which is usually a credit card. If one has paid cash, dollar bills are handed back.

I'm not sure I understand that question.

Fair enough. I've had very good results buying used from both of them but I may have been lucky.

I can respond to some of your concerns on GX85 based on my GX9, which I also selected in part for its compactness and inconspicuous aesthetic.

I've had no problems with the viewfinder. It's more than adequate for composing, which is after all the main purpose of the viewfinder. I too was attracted by the movable viewfinder on the GX9 but I find in practice that when I want to look down at the camera, I usually use the tilting LCD. So, I wouldn't consider the fixed viewfinder on the GX85 to be much of a negative vs. GX9.

Like yours, my hands are also small and I have no trouble with the shallow GX9/GX85 grip. You can always buy an add-on grip if you decide you need one. (Leicas have no grip at all and their users practically worship the ergonomics.)

I have no experience with the other cameras you are considering but I imagine they are good too. MFT is a great system to buy into.

There have been four broad generations of Olympus MFT cameras.  The newest is the stacked sensor 20 mp OMD 1.

About six years ago the PDAF 20mp sensor arrived on the OMD 1.  The M1X and OMD.2 both use it.  So does the brand new OM5.  
But although it lacks PDAF focus the OMD M5.2 with a 16mp sensor was in production from 2015 to about 2020.  It received all the whistles and bells Olympus offered, just no hybrid autofocus.

The M5.2 had an all metal body, phenomenal stabilization, top end 1080 video, and cost over a thousand dollars new.

For a bargain MFT Oly camera to start out with it has no peer.

It just struggles with fast moving subjects, that is the only downside.

How I solved that was buying a Canon 7D with cheap telephoto lens for $500.

If it’s running around I use the Canon.  I doubt anything has significantly better autofocus at any price.

Josh Adelson wrote:

I can respond to some of your concerns on GX85 based on my GX9, which I also selected in part for its compactness and inconspicuous aesthetic.

I've had no problems with the viewfinder. It's more than adequate for composing, which is after all the main purpose of the viewfinder. I too was attracted by the movable viewfinder on the GX9 but I find in practice that when I want to look down at the camera, I usually use the tilting LCD. So, I wouldn't consider the fixed viewfinder on the GX85 to be much of a negative vs. GX9.

Like yours, my hands are also small and I have no trouble with the shallow GX9/GX85 grip. You can always buy an add-on grip if you decide you need one. (Leicas have no grip at all and their users practically worship the ergonomics.)

I have no experience with the other cameras you are considering but I imagine they are good too. MFT is a great system to buy into.

Seems like lots of people are fine with the field-sequential EVF. I've thought about buying a GX7 which has that same tilting viewfinder but doesn't have the optical low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter removed like the GX85, GX9 and G85 do or the shutter-shock reducing electromagnetic shutter mechanism that the latter three cameras were upgraded with.

If the GX85 had a tilting viewfinder that would have been even better.

The only GX9 I can find sold new is this kit from Amazon with a 12-60mm kit lens that costs $1100+ CAD. If it was cheaper it would have been more worth considering.

Sensenacai wrote:

Josh Adelson wrote:

I can respond to some of your concerns on GX85 based on my GX9, which I also selected in part for its compactness and inconspicuous aesthetic.

I've had no problems with the viewfinder. It's more than adequate for composing, which is after all the main purpose of the viewfinder. I too was attracted by the movable viewfinder on the GX9 but I find in practice that when I want to look down at the camera, I usually use the tilting LCD. So, I wouldn't consider the fixed viewfinder on the GX85 to be much of a negative vs. GX9.

Like yours, my hands are also small and I have no trouble with the shallow GX9/GX85 grip. You can always buy an add-on grip if you decide you need one. (Leicas have no grip at all and their users practically worship the ergonomics.)

I have no experience with the other cameras you are considering but I imagine they are good too. MFT is a great system to buy into.

Seems like lots of people are fine with the field-sequential EVF. I've thought about buying a GX7 which has that same tilting viewfinder but doesn't have the optical low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter removed like the GX85, GX9 and G85 do or the shutter-shock reducing electromagnetic shutter mechanism that the latter three cameras were upgraded with.

If the GX85 had a tilting viewfinder that would have been even better.

The only GX9 I can find sold new is this kit from Amazon with a 12-60mm kit lens that costs $1100+ CAD. If it was cheaper it would have been more worth considering.

I’ll go along with Josh on the tilting viewfinder. The GX7 was my first m43 camera, great camera but kind of ancient tech by todays standards, but back then it did wean me from the Canons I had been shooting. Anyway, the GX7 has the tilt viewfinder and I used it….twice. I think the second time I used it was to confirm that I could find no practical use for it, at least for my use case.

Sensenacai wrote:

PhotonBeam wrote:

Note to the OP: If you are on a budget, seriously look at forums and other places for used copies of the camera you decide to get. You should be able to find a lightly used EM5 mkii for less than $250 USD (similar story for other models). I know this, because I sold one in mint condition with grip for that much a year ago. Also, the Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro is a good value on the used market (~$450 USD) and may be worth considering if it meets your needs and is not too large for you.

Y'all have it lucky in the US with those kinds of prices lol. The used market in Canada is tiny compared to the US. There's a few Buy/Sell camera groups on Facebook I have asked around on with limited results because they're all rather small.

Try watching places like micro 4/3 forum or Fred Miranda. I have seem Canadian cameras pop up from time to time.

gary0319 wrote:

I’ll go along with Josh on the tilting viewfinder. The GX7 was my first m43 camera, great camera but kind of ancient tech by todays standards, but back then it did wean me from the Canons I had been shooting. Anyway, the GX7 has the tilt viewfinder and I used it….twice. I think the second time I used it was to confirm that I could find no practical use for it, at least for my use case.

It would have been cool if more cameras had a tilting viewfinder as an option for when it comes in handy.