Observations about low light RAWs with Pixel 7 Pro

One of the strengths of the Pixel line has always been their capabilities to deliver nice hand held low light photography. Having now taken several of those in JPG and RAW I observed one interesting fact about them.

Low light shots do (as most other modes too) combine several single exposures to reduce noise and increase dynamic range. This of course poses a problem if the single exposures are taken during several seconds and if something or someone moves through the frame in this time.

Look for example at this night shot taken two days ago in Utrecht (Netherlands):

In the middle left you can see several persons walking down a street. A 100% crop from the unedited RAW file shows them clearer:

You can clearly see that the moving persons are noisier than the non-moving parts of the scenery - especially the guy on the left, but also the pair in the middle background and the bicycle rider on the right of them.

Using denoising and sharpening software I arrived at this version:

The guy on the left is still sort of a mess - he just moved too much, but the other three persons cleaned up nicely. Also the scene sharpened very well overall, giving more detail.

Now compare that to the JPG made by the phone:

It doesn't show noise, but is overall less detailed and shows a lot more artifacts, even if the guy on the left looks pleasantly blurred because of that. Apart from him I like the RAW based picture much better, especially if you downscale it a bit (and compare it then to an equally downscaled version of the JPG).

Another example with some more light. Please note that the pictures show no EXIF data because the crops were taken as screenshot out of Photoshop.

Here the tele lens of the 7 Pro was used to take a picture of some gulls in the city center. Behind them a couple walked in the out of focus region of the camera - a 100% crop of the unedited RAW looks like this:

As you see, the gulls don't have too much noise, but the walking couple behind them shows a lot of it, clearly limited to its shape.

Here the RAW version treated with denoising and sharpening in PP, cleaning up the noise up to a point and revealing more detail in the rest of the pic:

And finally the same crop out of the phone's JPG:

No noise, but blocky artifacts surrounding the couple and less detail in the gulls.

This two low light examples illustrate that even in these situations the advantages of RAW manifest themselves (as discussed with better lit situations in this thread - https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4677421). Also it shows that clearly the RAW files of the Pixel 7 Pro are based on computational photography - but that the denoising achieved by it can't be applied to things or people moving within the pictures while the single exposures needed are taken. Something to have in mind when shooting RAW - but its advantages still outweigh the sometimes necessary PP IMO. YMMV of course.

Phil

what denoising and sharpening software do u use ?at default setting? too bad DXO PRIME doesn't work

Jefftan wrote:

what denoising and sharpening software do u use ?

Latest versions of Topaz Sharpen and Denoise.

at default setting?

No, don't use auto settings, but look on critical parts of the image with previews and choose parameters accordingly for best results.

Phil

philzucker wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

what denoising and sharpening software do u use ?

Latest versions of Topaz Sharpen and Denoise.

at default setting?

No, don't use auto settings, but look on critical parts of the image with previews and choose parameters accordingly for best results.

Phil

i am too lazy to adjust each pic. That's why I like DXO prime whuch s full auto, too bad no phone support

Just a passing comment on the canal photo, and interesting try at improving on what I take to be handheld, Night Sight output helped by OIS. Not sure if the full sized shot is from the DNG, but from the crops it seems so to me. First off, you get props for a good handheld result at 1/8 seconds. (I tried a handheld Night Sight shot off my high balcony with GCam on a Moto, it came out 1/14 sec, and without OIS had a similar level of exposure but much too blurry. I wouldn't normally attempt without some kind of tripod, and would probably try both Night Sight and a more controlled long shutter low ISO single shot (or brackets) from a manual app like Open Camera or Camera FV-5. Often, underexposed RAW from a faster shutter has enough information to expose detail in post.)

My main observation might benefit from a direct comparison of the full Pixel jpeg output with your processed DNG. The problem I see with the full shot is not so much the moving humans as the intrusive street lamps - the crops seem to confirm that. While your work definitely improved the pedestrians, it looks to me that Pixel's AI worked better on the blown street lamp in a way I wouldn't know how to treat with software.

I2K4 wrote:

Just a passing comment on the canal photo, and interesting try at improving on what I take to be handheld, Night Sight output helped by OIS. Not sure if the full sized shot is from the DNG, but from the crops it seems so to me. First off, you get props for a good handheld result at 1/8 seconds. (I tried a handheld Night Sight shot off my high balcony with GCam on a Moto, it came out 1/14 sec, and without OIS had a similar level of exposure but much too blurry. I wouldn't normally attempt without some kind of tripod, and would probably try both Night Sight and a more controlled long shutter low ISO single shot (or brackets) from a manual app like Open Camera or Camera FV-5. Often, underexposed RAW from a faster shutter has enough information to expose detail in post.)

My main observation might benefit from a direct comparison of the full Pixel jpeg output with your processed DNG. The problem I see with the full shot is not so much the moving humans as the intrusive street lamps - the crops seem to confirm that. While your work definitely improved the pedestrians, it looks to me that Pixel's AI worked better on the blown street lamp in a way I wouldn't know how to treat with software.

what i understand is Pixel Night Sight help by handshake and not OIS as u said, i could be wrong

Jefftan wrote:

...

what i understand is Pixel Night Sight help by handshake and not OIS as u said, i could be wrong

I'm not sure what changes might have been made with the current camera app based on integration with the new Tensor chip. To my knowledge, Night Sight just uses a lot more stabilized single shots (with more demand for overall camera stability) than ordinary HDR+ - several of the third party GCams let the user configure that.

You might be thinking of the way Super Res Zoom optimizes camera hand shake to improve digital telephoto - I haven't seen any updating of this article. Scroll down to the topic "Practical Super-resolution Using Hand Motion" for some explanation.

I2K4 wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

...

what i understand is Pixel Night Sight help by handshake and not OIS as u said, i could be wrong

I'm not sure what changes might have been made with the current camera app based on integration with the new Tensor chip. To my knowledge, Night Sight just uses a lot more stabilized single shots (with more demand for overall camera stability) than ordinary HDR+ - several of the third party GCams let the user configure that.

You might be thinking of the way Super Res Zoom optimizes camera hand shake to improve digital telephoto - I haven't seen any updating of this article. Scroll down to the topic "Practical Super-resolution Using Hand Motion" for some explanation.

whatever the magic behind, IQ In Pixel 7 night sight is impressive especially if i set it to use the maximum time (in dedicated Night sight mode) which is at most 6 seconds

I can usually got steady shot even handheld for 6 seconds and i don't have steady hands. Some Google magic work behind to get the steady shot

i am so impressed. No way can someone handheld for 6 seconds in camera

I actually use maximum time Night Sight even in daylight to extract the maximum IQ from Pixel

My only complain is over-sharpen jpeg, other than that Pixel 7 just exceed expectation to me thar have use APS-C for many years.

It seem to have equal or better IQ than APS-C, am I crazy ?

I have not really compare them, just an impression. But i am 100% sure pixel jpeg is better than my A6500 jpeg.

Even if A6500 have better IQ, it has to use time comsuming RAW processing

Anyone have a solution to pixel over-sharpen jpeg?

I2K4 wrote:

Just a passing comment on the canal photo, and interesting try at improving on what I take to be handheld, Night Sight output helped by OIS. Not sure if the full sized shot is from the DNG, but from the crops it seems so to me.

Yes, it indeed is.

First off, you get props for a good handheld result at 1/8 seconds. (I tried a handheld Night Sight shot off my high balcony with GCam on a Moto, it came out 1/14 sec, and without OIS had a similar level of exposure but much too blurry. I wouldn't normally attempt without some kind of tripod, and would probably try both Night Sight and a more controlled long shutter low ISO single shot (or brackets) from a manual app like Open Camera or Camera FV-5. Often, underexposed RAW from a faster shutter has enough information to expose detail in post.)

As I understand it the Pixel combines multiple exposures to eliminate or at least reduce camera shake and noise. So handheld results are quite easy to get. IIRC I didn't stabilize my camera with anything, just normally held the camera like taking a daylight shot.

My main observation might benefit from a direct comparison of the full Pixel jpeg output with your processed DNG. The problem I see with the full shot is not so much the moving humans as the intrusive street lamps - the crops seem to confirm that. While your work definitely improved the pedestrians, it looks to me that Pixel's AI worked better on the blown street lamp in a way I wouldn't know how to treat with software.

Well, the highlight treatment of the DNG was my personal preference. I reprocessed the DNG to match the highlight treatment of the original JPG, which was quite easy to do - the highlight info is in the DNGs. Look e.g. at the shop window from the scene I posted the crops from - it was blown in my first rendition, and now matches the highlight recovery of the JPG's version.

Here the full resolution pics:

1. Pixel JPG OOC:

2. Pixel DNG treated to match the highlight treatment (not the overall color) of the JPG, denoised and sharpened with Topaz to taste:

And thanks for looking and for your comment!

Phil

Jefftan wrote:

I2K4 wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

...

what i understand is Pixel Night Sight help by handshake and not OIS as u said, i could be wrong

I'm not sure what changes might have been made with the current camera app based on integration with the new Tensor chip. To my knowledge, Night Sight just uses a lot more stabilized single shots (with more demand for overall camera stability) than ordinary HDR+ - several of the third party GCams let the user configure that.

You might be thinking of the way Super Res Zoom optimizes camera hand shake to improve digital telephoto - I haven't seen any updating of this article. Scroll down to the topic "Practical Super-resolution Using Hand Motion" for some explanation.

whatever the magic behind, IQ In Pixel 7 night sight is impressive especially if i set it to use the maximum time (in dedicated Night sight mode) which is at most 6 seconds

I can usually got steady shot even handheld for 6 seconds and i don't have steady hands. Some Google magic work behind to get the steady shot

i am so impressed. No way can someone handheld for 6 seconds in camera

The Pixel 7 does actually take multiple shorter shots in this six seconds period, so no need to be absolutely stable in all those seconds the process take. My canal pic I posted here also took six seconds to take IIRC (at least several), but the final EXIF says 1/8s.

I actually use maximum time Night Sight even in daylight to extract the maximum IQ from Pixel

Now that's an idea! Have to try that.

My only complain is over-sharpen jpeg, other than that Pixel 7 just exceed expectation to me thar have use APS-C for many years.

[...] Anyone have a solution to pixel over-sharpen jpeg?

If I decide that I have oversharpened a bit in PP I sometimes use a slight dose of the denoise slider in LR. That helps to loose some of that "too much" sharpening. Works also on Pixel 7 JPGs - you loose a bit "false" resolution and some artifacts viewed at 100%, giving a somewhat more pleasing rendition. But working from the DNG gives much better results IMO.

Phil

philzucker wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

I2K4 wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

...

what i understand is Pixel Night Sight help by handshake and not OIS as u said, i could be wrong

I'm not sure what changes might have been made with the current camera app based on integration with the new Tensor chip. To my knowledge, Night Sight just uses a lot more stabilized single shots (with more demand for overall camera stability) than ordinary HDR+ - several of the third party GCams let the user configure that.

You might be thinking of the way Super Res Zoom optimizes camera hand shake to improve digital telephoto - I haven't seen any updating of this article. Scroll down to the topic "Practical Super-resolution Using Hand Motion" for some explanation.

whatever the magic behind, IQ In Pixel 7 night sight is impressive especially if i set it to use the maximum time (in dedicated Night sight mode) which is at most 6 seconds

I can usually got steady shot even handheld for 6 seconds and i don't have steady hands. Some Google magic work behind to get the steady shot

i am so impressed. No way can someone handheld for 6 seconds in camera

The Pixel 7 does actually take multiple shorter shots in this six seconds period, so no need to be absolutely stable in all those seconds the process take. My canal pic I posted here also took six seconds to take IIRC (at least several), but the final EXIF says 1/8s.

I actually use maximum time Night Sight even in daylight to extract the maximum IQ from Pixel

Now that's an idea! Have to try that.

Try that pleae, u will be impressed.

One of the greatest secret of Pixel that many don't know is Night Sight is not just for night shot if u want maximum IQ

This is how to get the maximum IQ in all shot includind daylight outdoor.

It is also most useful for the ultrawide lens as IQ is not that great compare to normal lens, Night Sight will significantly improve ultrawide IQ by stacking many images.

Please make sure to set to maximum time in the dedicated "Night Sight" mode

philzucker wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

I2K4 wrote:

My only complain is over-sharpen jpeg, other than that Pixel 7 just exceed expectation to me thar have use APS-C for many years.

[...] Anyone have a solution to pixel over-sharpen jpeg?

If I decide that I have oversharpened a bit in PP I sometimes use a slight dose of the denoise slider in LR. That helps to loose some of that "too much" sharpening. Works also on Pixel 7 JPGs - you loose a bit "false" resolution and some artifacts viewed at 100%, giving a somewhat more pleasing rendition. But working from the DNG gives much better results IMO.

Phil

Thanks. Which denoise slider ?

luminance noise or color noise ?

Jefftan wrote:

philzucker wrote:

Jefftan wrote:

I2K4 wrote:

My only complain is over-sharpen jpeg, other than that Pixel 7 just exceed expectation to me thar have use APS-C for many years.

[...] Anyone have a solution to pixel over-sharpen jpeg?

If I decide that I have oversharpened a bit in PP I sometimes use a slight dose of the denoise slider in LR. That helps to loose some of that "too much" sharpening. Works also on Pixel 7 JPGs - you loose a bit "false" resolution and some artifacts viewed at 100%, giving a somewhat more pleasing rendition. But working from the DNG gives much better results IMO.

Phil

Thanks. Which denoise slider ?

luminance noise or color noise ?

Luminance!

Phil

Thanks for posting the Pixel JPEG, will be interesting to go over the two.

Any raw samples to try? And also, please upload a free raw sample at the raw file database https://raw.pixls.us/

It already has

• Pixel 2 XL
• Pixel 3a
• Pixel 4 XL
• Pixel 4a

Jefftan wrote:

whatever the magic behind, IQ In Pixel 7 night sight is impressive especially if i set it to use the maximum time (in dedicated Night sight mode) which is at most 6 seconds

I can usually got steady shot even handheld for 6 seconds and i don't have steady hands. Some Google magic work behind to get the steady shot

i am so impressed. No way can someone handheld for 6 seconds in camera

Yes, it's a marvel of computational photography.

I actually use maximum time Night Sight even in daylight to extract the maximum IQ from Pixel

Interesting. I have an aging Motorola 1 5G, and use Open Camera DRO (dynamic range optimization) for similar effect. Obviously not as good as Night Sight!

My only complaint is over-sharpen JPEG, other than that Pixel 7 just exceed expectation to me that have use APS-C for many years.

The Pixel 7 Pro does not oversharpen (USM) as much as iPhone 14 or Samsung S20 Ultra.

It seem to have equal or better IQ than APS-C, am I crazy ? I have not really compare them, just an impression. But i am 100% sure pixel JPEG is better than my A6500 JPEG.

Possibly at wide angle and normal, but definitely not at telephoto distances, as evidenced by Rob's samples posted a while ago. 10x is stretching it; 20x is pretty bad; 30x is right out.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66552289

I wish DPreview would add Pixel Pro 7 (at 1x or 5x) to the comparison tool.

Even if A6500 have better IQ, it has to use time consuming RAW processing. Anyone have a solution to pixel over-sharpen JPEG?

Nope. Doesn't bother me as much as it does you.