100mm with Raynox DCR vs MP-E 65mm

Hi all,

Body I am using is an R7

Currently have a Canon 100mm f/2.8 USM lens with Raynox DCR-250 for my macro.

I can handheld stack (especially as I use a flash to "freeze" the action) and get relatively close to insects and with the Raynox, I adjust focus/magnification via the ring manually.

I am considering a Canon MP-E 65mm 5x Macro lens - aware it is manual only. Also aware that I can go from 1:1 to 5:1 and move back and forwards for focusing.

Does anyone have experience with the latter, handheld?

If I set the MP-E to the same sort of mag produced by the former setup, will handheld be just as possible?

I am just wondering if it was upgrading to the MP-E 65mm lens (and sell on the Canon 100mm as I only use it purely for macro) as I may want the additional magnification which would be easy by a turn of the lens.

And if there are any clever people who can calculate working distances for both setups, I'd greatly appreciate that too.

PhasmatosOculus wrote:

Hi all,

Body I am using is an R7

Currently have a Canon 100mm f/2.8 USM lens with Raynox DCR-250 for my macro.

I can handheld stack (especially as I use a flash to "freeze" the action) and get relatively close to insects and with the Raynox, I adjust focus/magnification via the ring manually.

I am considering a Canon MP-E 65mm 5x Macro lens - aware it is manual only. Also aware that I can go from 1:1 to 5:1 and move back and forwards for focusing.

Does anyone have experience with the latter, handheld?

If I set the MP-E to the same sort of mag produced by the former setup, will handheld be just as possible?

I am just wondering if it was upgrading to the MP-E 65mm lens (and sell on the Canon 100mm as I only use it purely for macro) as I may want the additional magnification which would be easy by a turn of the lens.

And if there are any clever people who can calculate working distances for both setups, I'd greatly appreciate that too.

I do not use Canon, however, I just read somewhere else that:

You CAN use the 100 Macro F2.8 with the Canon 1.4X teleconverter... I do it all the time. However, you have to insert an extension tube (the 12 mm one will do) between lens and extender to keep the extended front element of the extender from crunching on the rear of the lens. As long as you don't want to focus to infinity --and I gather you don't -- it works just fine. Make sure you don't stop down too much or you'll run into diffraction issues.

The reason I bring this up is this is what I do with the Olympus 60mm macro lens.  I use their 2x teleconverter with it and use a 16mm extension tube in between the teleconverter and 60mm lens acting as a coupler to attach them together,  Autofocus won't work, but focus bracketing does.  I even  use that setup with a Raynox macro filter to get anywhere from 5x to 9x magnification depending on the Raynox used.  So maybe see if that's an option for your Canon setup??

I’m just wanting a comparison between the two originally mentioned.

racketman wrote:

I’ve hand held sequences of shots to produce stacked images typically 6-8 shots at f5.6 x4 mag but only when the subject has been on a flat surface and I can rest the front hand on same. Probably always going to be flash although if it’s very sunny you can try natural light with a higher ISO.

There was a guy Eddie the Bugman doing insanely detailed large stacks in the field, hand held of springtails no larger than 2mm and with TC and extension tubes added to the MPE65.
If you have the determination anything is possible.

And was that just as easy/difficult as stacking had you used the 100mm macro with Raynox dcr?

PhasmatosOculus wrote:

Hi all,

Body I am using is an R7

Can an R7 engage flash while you're using a zero-vibration mode? I know my Nikon Z7 can't.

Currently have a Canon 100mm f/2.8 USM lens with Raynox DCR-250 for my macro.

I can handheld stack (especially as I use a flash to "freeze" the action) and get relatively close to insects and with the Raynox, I adjust focus/magnification via the ring manually.

I am considering a Canon MP-E 65mm 5x Macro lens - aware it is manual only. Also aware that I can go from 1:1 to 5:1 and move back and forwards for focusing.

Does anyone have experience with the latter, handheld?

Yes. I found it pleasant at 1x, but excruciating past 2x: near impossible at 5x.

The MPE-65 has a working distance of 42mm at 5x, which doesn't sound so bad until you realize that the front tube diameter is an ungodly 60mm. You will find setting up lighting to be frustrating because you run into the shadow of the lens anything closer than 35 degrees off center. You can't really change magnification on the fly because the front of the lens moves so much when you do that you'll be outside the lighting setup you had for a different magnification.

I will stick with my bellows and a 50mm f/2 Leitz Photar. The front end of the Photar is only 35mm in diameter, and the working distance at 5x on a bellows or tubes is 50mm. You can get your lights within 19 degrees of the lens axis.

If I set the MP-E to the same sort of mag produced by the former setup, will handheld be just as possible?

Only with flash at high mag, but then again a DCR-250 on a 100mm Canon, you're looking at a WD of about 40mm at max magnification, which should be about 2.6x.

I am just wondering if it was upgrading to the MP-E 65mm lens (and sell on the Canon 100mm as I only use it purely for macro)

There's a massive difference in the perspective you have with your entrance pupil nearly 200mm from the subject at 1:1 with the 100mm vs. about 90mm for the MPE. Seriously, for my own work I like to be out past 100mm, and typically resort to a 200mm 1:1 macro on a 2x TC. DLAATW.

as I may want the additional magnification which would be easy by a turn of the lens.

It doesn't feel that easy when you start doing it. I personally found the old setup with a Photar or Luminar on a bellows to be easier.

And if there are any clever people who can calculate working distances for both setups, I'd greatly appreciate that too.

I sort of did that on the fly, but Canon states the MPE-65 drops to 42mm at 5x, and my calculations for the Raynox are nearly identical, but that's based on a wild guess that the focal length of the Canon 100mm at max mag is 60mm.

At least the Raynox has a smaller front: down around 50mm if you dismount it from the clip-on contraption and purchase the proper step-down rings to get you from its M43 rear threads to the M67 on the 100mm. I'd go four rings: 67-62-58-52-43.

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

PhasmatosOculus wrote:

Hi all,

Body I am using is an R7

Can an R7 engage flash while you're using a zero-vibration mode? I know my Nikon Z7 can't.

The R7 can utilise mechanical shutter and electronic first curtain shutter with the flash. The IBIS does work and I have not had any issues using it handheld with the Canon 100mm USM macro and the Raynox DCR-250, even at max maginifcation.

Currently have a Canon 100mm f/2.8 USM lens with Raynox DCR-250 for my macro.

I can handheld stack (especially as I use a flash to "freeze" the action) and get relatively close to insects and with the Raynox, I adjust focus/magnification via the ring manually.

I am considering a Canon MP-E 65mm 5x Macro lens - aware it is manual only. Also aware that I can go from 1:1 to 5:1 and move back and forwards for focusing.

Does anyone have experience with the latter, handheld?

Yes. I found it pleasant at 1x, but excruciating past 2x: near impossible at 5x.

The MPE-65 has a working distance of 42mm at 5x, which doesn't sound so bad until you realize that the front tube diameter is an ungodly 60mm. You will find setting up lighting to be frustrating because you run into the shadow of the lens anything closer than 35 degrees off center. You can't really change magnification on the fly because the front of the lens moves so much when you do that you'll be outside the lighting setup you had for a different magnification.

I will stick with my bellows and a 50mm f/2 Leitz Photar. The front end of the Photar is only 35mm in diameter, and the working distance at 5x on a bellows or tubes is 50mm. You can get your lights within 19 degrees of the lens axis.

I do have a focus rail, tripod etc for the higher mags for first light when nothing is moving, but I tend to spend a bit of time during the later hours of morning and afternoon.

If I set the MP-E to the same sort of mag produced by the former setup, will handheld be just as possible?

Only with flash at high mag, but then again a DCR-250 on a 100mm Canon, you're looking at a WD of about 40mm at max magnification, which should be about 2.6x.

I only use flash with macro so this should not be an issue

as I may want the additional magnification which would be easy by a turn of the lens.

It doesn't feel that easy when you start doing it. I personally found the old setup with a Photar or Luminar on a bellows to be easier.

I'm wondering with practice would it be easy enough