LR: Updated terms and conditions

Started Sep 29, 2022 | Discussions
boldcolors Senior Member • Posts: 1,915
LR: Updated terms and conditions

Ususally I don't read this but I don't trust Adobe. I found this in the latest update:

Is this cloud only or everything we import to LR? 4.2 in particular is very interesting

4. Your Content.

4.1 Content. “Content” means any text, information, communication, or material, such as audio files, video files, electronic documents, or images, that you upload, import into, embed for use by, or create using the Services and Software. We reserve the right (but do not have the obligation) to remove Content or restrict access to Content, Services, and Software if any of your Content is found to be in violation of the Terms. We do not review all Content uploaded to the Services and Software, but we may use available technologies, vendors, or processes to screen for certain types of illegal content (for example, child pornography) or other abusive content or behavior (for example, patterns of activity that indicate spam or phishing, or keywords that indicate adult content has been posted outside of the adult wall).

4.2 Licenses to Your Content. Solely for the purposes of operating or improving the Services and Software, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free sublicensable, license, to use, reproduce, publicly display, distribute, modify, create derivative works based on, publicly perform, and translate the Content. For example, we may sublicense our right to the Content to our service providers or to other users to allow the Services and Software to operate as intended, such as enabling you to share photos with others. Separately, section 4.5 (Feedback) below covers any Feedback that you provide to us.

4.3 Ownership. As between you and Adobe, you (as a Business User or a Personal User, as applicable) retain all rights and ownership of your Content (or where applicable, you must ensure that you or the Business (as applicable) have a valid license to the Content). We do not claim any ownership rights to your Content.

https://www.adobe.com/legal/terms-linkfree.html

 boldcolors's gear list:boldcolors's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 5DS R Pentax K-3 II Canon EOS R8 Canon EF 70-200mm F4L USM +5 more
dj_paige
dj_paige Veteran Member • Posts: 3,508
Re: LR: Updated terms and conditions
2

If you click on the link, you see Lightroom but not Lightroom Classic.

In addition, 4.2 specifically says: "Solely for the purposes of operating or improving the Services and Software" so I'm not sure what there is to indicate Adobe will somehow steal our work and use it as their own, as that seems to be not included in what they are saying they can do.

-- hide signature --

Paige Miller

 dj_paige's gear list:dj_paige's gear list
Nikon Z6 II Nikon Z 50mm F1.8 Nikon Z 35mm F1.8 Nikon Z 14-30mm F4 Nikon Z 20mm F1.8 +2 more
dj_paige
dj_paige Veteran Member • Posts: 3,508
Re: LR: Updated terms and conditions
2

boldcolors wrote:

... but I don't trust Adobe.

My advice then is to not use Adobe software.

-- hide signature --

Paige Miller

 dj_paige's gear list:dj_paige's gear list
Nikon Z6 II Nikon Z 50mm F1.8 Nikon Z 35mm F1.8 Nikon Z 14-30mm F4 Nikon Z 20mm F1.8 +2 more
NAwlins Contrarian Veteran Member • Posts: 9,230
Thorny issues
1

I don't trust Adobe. I found this in the latest update:

Is this cloud only or everything we import to LR? 4.2 in particular is very interesting

4. Your Content.

4.1 Content. “Content” means any text, information, communication, or material, such as audio files, video files, electronic documents, or images, that you upload, import into, embed for use by, or create using the Services and Software. We reserve the right (but do not have the obligation) to remove Content or restrict access to Content, Services, and Software if any of your Content is found to be in violation of the Terms. We do not review all Content uploaded to the Services and Software, but we may use available technologies, vendors, or processes to screen for certain types of illegal content (for example, child pornography) or other abusive content or behavior (for example, patterns of activity that indicate spam or phishing, or keywords that indicate adult content has been posted outside of the adult wall).

4.2 Licenses to Your Content. Solely for the purposes of operating or improving the Services and Software, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free sublicensable, license, to use, reproduce, publicly display, distribute, modify, create derivative works based on, publicly perform, and translate the Content. For example, we may sublicense our right to the Content to our service providers or to other users to allow the Services and Software to operate as intended, such as enabling you to share photos with others. Separately, section 4.5 (Feedback) below covers any Feedback that you provide to us.

4.3 Ownership. As between you and Adobe, you (as a Business User or a Personal User, as applicable) retain all rights and ownership of your Content (or where applicable, you must ensure that you or the Business (as applicable) have a valid license to the Content). We do not claim any ownership rights to your Content.

https://www.adobe.com/legal/terms-linkfree.html

There appear to me to be some potentially thorny legal issues, which probably vary in different countries around the world. I don't know precisely what Adobe is doing, expects to do in the near future, or might possibly do based on these license terms. I don't have any clear answers or major suggestions, but:

* if you're using Lightroom not Lightroom Classic, Adobe is hosting all your photos, and if those photos include (to use Adobe's example) child pornography, can that expose Adobe to criminal and/or civil liability in various countries? If so, what is Adobe required and/or allowed to do to protect itself? In this respect I am sympathetic to what Adobe appears to be trying to do.

* On the other hand, if Adobe is analyzing your edits to train its AI algorithms "for the purposes of operating or improving the Services and Software," then basically Adobe is taking your intellectual content (the edits) and using them for Adobe's gain without paying you or even getting your specific consent. In this respect I am not at all sympathetic to Adobe.

* The sort of behavior Adobe is claiming the right to do is pervasive and increasing. Some countries may make it illegal or place major limitations on it. Some software solutions for it--like the OOSU10 software to prevent or reduce Windows spying on you (https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10)--will appear and I think become more widely adopted by users. And some users won't care and go merrily about their lives, being spied on. And make no mistake about it, increasingly our devices and software are basically spying on us, to sell information about us, especially to those who want to advertise to us, but also for other purposes.

 NAwlins Contrarian's gear list:NAwlins Contrarian's gear list
Nikon Coolpix S30 Nikon Coolpix AW110 Canon PowerShot S120 Sony RX100 IV Sony a9 +5 more
Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 27,413
Re: LR: Updated terms and conditions
1

When the Auto feature was improved I know they used thousands of professional edits. I doubt Adoibe did that behind their backs. I also remember reading that they started to ask amateurs to submit their edits as well. I can't back that but I'll try to find some information.

I'm not a layer but I found this.

https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2020/02/27/copyrights-in-the-era-of-ai

Intellectual property concerns. PETA sued and won the rights for an ape who took a selfie There are millions of people using the cloud. Wouldn't someone have noticed their edits are actually being stolen?

We also live in a world where you submit all kinds of personal data on a daily basis. Do you really think Air Miles points are free? You are making someone very rich using that and other points systems. While Uber, etc may not be making money the data they collecting that you provide by using them is invaluable.

No disrespect to the OP. When they first went subscription and released Lr this and the sites had eruptions. It's been relatively quiet the last few years until about October when all the competitors are releasing new upgrades. Sinister Adobe stories emerge

How are competitors training their AI? Using employee data only?

If anyone this concerned I highly recommend to drop Adobe today, get the the bulk downloader and get are files back on your own systems.

-- hide signature --

Don't Look Up

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
Canon EOS R7 Canon EOS R6 Mark II Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM +1 more
robgendreau Forum Pro • Posts: 11,704
Re: LR: Updated terms and conditions
2

Zeee wrote:

Intellectual property concerns. PETA sued and won the rights for an ape who took a selfie There are millions of people using the cloud. Wouldn't someone have noticed their edits are actually being stolen?

That is incorrect about the ape. PETA lost the suit, rather emphatically, actually. The Wikipedia article has the details. It gets confused because there was a different result in that the US Copyright Office stated a picture taken by an animal can't be copyrighted, but that wasn't a court precedent, and lots of folks noted that frequently photos are set up and arranged by photographers and should be copyrighted (think of game cameras, trigger traps, etc). End result is that the ape doesn't hold a copyright, and now there's precedent that it can't. Oops PETA.

We also live in a world where you submit all kinds of personal data on a daily basis. Do you really think Air Miles points are free? You are making someone very rich using that and other points systems. While Uber, etc may not be making money the data they collecting that you provide by using them is invaluable.

No disrespect to the OP. When they first went subscription and released Lr this and the sites had eruptions. It's been relatively quiet the last few years until about October when all the competitors are releasing new upgrades. Sinister Adobe stories emerge

How are competitors training their AI? Using employee data only?

If anyone this concerned I highly recommend to drop Adobe today, get the the bulk downloader and get are files back on your own systems.

I agree with these points. Adobe is using the images for very limited purposes, and it's a trade off I'm OK with for online storage. The solution is not to use it; nothing nefarious about it.

And as for the training, so many have donated their photos to Google, Amazon, etc that I hardly think there's much effort in getting a set together to train on

 robgendreau's gear list:robgendreau's gear list
Pentax 645Z
Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 27,413
Re: LR: Updated terms and conditions

robgendreau wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Intellectual property concerns. PETA sued and won the rights for an ape who took a selfie There are millions of people using the cloud. Wouldn't someone have noticed their edits are actually being stolen?

That is incorrect about the ape. PETA lost the suit, rather emphatically, actually. The Wikipedia article has the details. It gets confused because there was a different result in that the US Copyright Office stated a picture taken by an animal can't be copyrighted, but that wasn't a court precedent, and lots of folks noted that frequently photos are set up and arranged by photographers and should be copyrighted (think of game cameras, trigger traps, etc). End result is that the ape doesn't hold a copyright, and now there's precedent that it can't. Oops PETA.

I’ll have to look that up. Amongst others Peta Pixel posted it had won. That is one site I’ve never trusted for accurate info but if was not the only one.

We also live in a world where you submit all kinds of personal data on a daily basis. Do you really think Air Miles points are free? You are making someone very rich using that and other points systems. While Uber, etc may not be making money the data they collecting that you provide by using them is invaluable.

No disrespect to the OP. When they first went subscription and released Lr this and the sites had eruptions. It's been relatively quiet the last few years until about October when all the competitors are releasing new upgrades. Sinister Adobe stories emerge

How are competitors training their AI? Using employee data only?

If anyone this concerned I highly recommend to drop Adobe today, get the the bulk downloader and get are files back on your own systems.

I agree with these points. Adobe is using the images for very limited purposes, and it's a trade off I'm OK with for online storage. The solution is not to use it; nothing nefarious about it.

And as for the training, so many have donated their photos to Google, Amazon, etc that I hardly think there's much effort in getting a set together to train on

Exactly. The big concern when this all started was Adobe stealing everyone’s files (even LrC which would be impossible to do) and holding people ransom to pay higher fees. That will never happen.

-- hide signature --

Don't Look Up

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
Canon EOS R7 Canon EOS R6 Mark II Canon RF 24-105mm F4L IS USM Canon RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1L IS USM +1 more
robgendreau Forum Pro • Posts: 11,704
Re: LR: Updated terms and conditions

Zeee wrote:

robgendreau wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Intellectual property concerns. PETA sued and won the rights for an ape who took a selfie There are millions of people using the cloud. Wouldn't someone have noticed their edits are actually being stolen?

That is incorrect about the ape. PETA lost the suit, rather emphatically, actually. The Wikipedia article has the details. It gets confused because there was a different result in that the US Copyright Office stated a picture taken by an animal can't be copyrighted, but that wasn't a court precedent, and lots of folks noted that frequently photos are set up and arranged by photographers and should be copyrighted (think of game cameras, trigger traps, etc). End result is that the ape doesn't hold a copyright, and now there's precedent that it can't. Oops PETA.

I’ll have to look that up. Amongst others Peta Pixel posted it had won. That is one site I’ve never trusted for accurate info but if was not the only one.

I don't trust Petapixel much either, but in this case they got it right: https://petapixel.com/2018/04/24/photographer-wins-monkey-selfie-copyright-case-court-slams-peta/ (the spoiler is in the URL; PETA lost big).

We also live in a world where you submit all kinds of personal data on a daily basis. Do you really think Air Miles points are free? You are making someone very rich using that and other points systems. While Uber, etc may not be making money the data they collecting that you provide by using them is invaluable.

No disrespect to the OP. When they first went subscription and released Lr this and the sites had eruptions. It's been relatively quiet the last few years until about October when all the competitors are releasing new upgrades. Sinister Adobe stories emerge

How are competitors training their AI? Using employee data only?

If anyone this concerned I highly recommend to drop Adobe today, get the the bulk downloader and get are files back on your own systems.

I agree with these points. Adobe is using the images for very limited purposes, and it's a trade off I'm OK with for online storage. The solution is not to use it; nothing nefarious about it.

And as for the training, so many have donated their photos to Google, Amazon, etc that I hardly think there's much effort in getting a set together to train on

Exactly. The big concern when this all started was Adobe stealing everyone’s files (even LrC which would be impossible to do) and holding people ransom to pay higher fees. That will never happen.

Yeah, true that. I never got the hand wringing over it. And Adobe wouldn't even make my top ten of photography related companies that have been a pain to me. And I'm easily annoyed

 robgendreau's gear list:robgendreau's gear list
Pentax 645Z
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads