We Need An Adobe Lightroom True Competitor Locked

Bob Janes wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Also, one of the tools I use in LR a LOT is the Spot Removal and Copy and Paste tools and I would definitely need that and I'm not sure if C1 has that haha

The full-fat version of C1 (as opposed to the Sony/Nikon/Fuji 'Express' free versions) has one of the nicest spot removal features I've come across.

If you have shot a whole bunch of shots, you can pick out all the sensor dirt on one shot and then apply the same changes to all the other shots in that session.

In effect you can shoot a blank shot at a smalll aperture to pick out all the spots on your sensor, apply the spotting tool then apply that to all the shots in a batch (I seem to remember having to do two passes, one for portrait and one for landscape shots)

Over the past two years C1 has introduced a lot of very nice features.  They have introduced an "AI" feature to automatically fix keystoning.  They introduced the "magic mask" tool which allows one to select color, set parameters and it will mask all ares of that color.  It is great for say the sky.  You then can erase areas you don't want in the mask.  In C1 22 they have added good multi shot HDR merging to merge exposure bracket shots.  That works really well.  I've merged hand held shots and it really does a great job of aligning.  It also introduced stitching.  My wife stitched multiple shots she took of a herd of Pronghorns, all handheld and the print was gorgeous.  It really did a great job and no tripod was required.

Of course with features comes complexity.  One has to learn the UI so like any complex S/W package there is a learning curve.  However, one has the ability to refine the tools and look of the desk top to support their workflow.  One can save multiple desktops if one wants to support different applications.  I much prefer the C1 in the way it stores my images files.  If you want it to gobble up your files and become anal in managing them like say Photos, Lightroom or the old Aperture - then you can.  I, however, find that a poison pill.  If you want to work solely out of one file you use sessions.  You can drag and drop new images to the sessions folder and it's there in C1.  If you want a hybrid where you keep your own files where you want them on your disk, but want the features of a catalog to keep track, then C1 offers that.  The files are stored on your disk not in a library and C1 generates a file of pointers that point to your files and works off those pointers.  Drop in a new image, synchronize and it's there.

Another really nice technology for local editing is the "U-point" found in DXO Nik plugins.  It was developed originally by Nik before it was bought by Google.  It works really well in SilverEfex Pro.  I don't know if it has been fully implemented in PhotoLab.  But really works well to isolate say a face to lighten the shadows.  But I find PhotoLab lacking since to address geometric distortion  you have to buy a separate app.

Batdude wrote:

koweb wrote:

Dismayed wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Who has the balls to come out with a much better RAW converter that truly competes with Adobe Lightroom Classic? We need one.

The only reason why I use LR is because of (it's workflow, that's it!) but as a Fujifilm shooter the files it produces are really poor. When I was using the Fujifilm S5 Pro no problem, but then after several years after upgrading to newer cameras you can definitely see the problem. Color tones, film simulations, sharpness and detail is simply not there and you have to spend a LOT more time messing around with this nonsense. Fujifilm is Fujifilm, not Sony, although I get the feeling that Sony RAW files are easier to manage now over Fujifilm, with Lightroom that is.

That's the first problem. The second problem is that for importing/exporting Lightroom is SUPER SLOW.

One of the comments I liked from the thread "Do You Want 40MP?" is that someone said that more megapixels is only going to get worse. And that's true. But, the hardware is not the only problem, is the software that will be the bottleneck and will slow things up drastically as MP keep increasing.

Sure, if you don't shoot over 1000 photos it should be fine, but over that forget it.

I hope someone comes out with better faster software than Adobe Lightroom with the same or even better workflow and I would be delighted to make the change.

There are at least a dozen alternatives to Lightroom. C1P and DXO Photolab Pro are two that I've used myself. Try Google.

Well, to play devil's advocate here, it is not nearly as simple as you try to make it... and, you have completely ignored the OPs comment that he uses LR because of its powerful workflows that work to process 1000s of photos.

I found and started watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI_xzChEAk8

I am super busy and it will take me quite some time to find out more about C1, even if I buy the software it will take me time to learn what it can or can't do. But, since you mentioned it, is there a limit as to how many pictures one can load? Is C1 not capable of loading 1000s of photos? After watching that video I got the impression that there is no limit? Can you or someone expand on that?

Also, one of the tools I use in LR a LOT is the Spot Removal and Copy and Paste tools and I would definitely need that and I'm not sure if C1 has that haha

Also, unlike LR, does C1 take full advantage of a graphics card? I currently have a GTX1070 and heck I would even be willing to buy something much newer if only the software actually uses it.

Also curious, does C1 support 10 bit color?

Thanks.

Can you provide the google search link to the dozens of options that have the power of LR workflows? Or, can you provide your workflows to intake, process and manage 1000s of images, when you use C1 or DXO?

Sorry if I've caused any confusion... you are correct that C1 can manage 1000s of photos and I don't believe there is a limit. And, I really prefer using C1 "sessions" instead of a catalogue (basically a session can live with a job full of photos so easy to use it on multiple computers, or from multiple storage mediums. But C1 can do a catalogue also if you prefer). That said, there are differences in how you intake photos and to me LR still has an advantage here. As you compare, note whether the limitations of C1 will impact your workflows.

One other note is the options to search your catalogue; C1 does allow for unlimited tagging and adding metadata, but LR adds a lot of that automatically (for example, I haven't found an easy way to search by what camera or lens I used, unless you add that to your images - which you can do in C1, whereas seems much more done automatically in LR). There are a lot of event and wedding photographers who use and like C1, but from your posts I would encourage you to make sure the workflows system will work for you.

As to the PP part, the interface is definitely different, but you can turn on a "classic" interface now that will ease the transition. As I and others have mentioned, C1 is far easier than LR at color processing, and I get better, more consistent results, in less time.

One last note - C1 has had a pattern of releasing new versions of their software at the end of October, so the scuttlebutt is that C1 v23 is right around the corner. You likely could get a 30 day trial now and expect to buy v23 when released.

I hope this is useful - in some ways C1 has advantages vs LR and in other ways disadvantages... it will take a bit of work to see if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, for you.

koweb wrote:

One other note is the options to search your catalogue; C1 does allow for unlimited tagging and adding metadata, but LR adds a lot of that automatically (for example, I haven't found an easy way to search by what camera or lens I used, unless you add that to your images - which you can do in C1, whereas seems much more done automatically in LR)

This can be done with the filters tool (on the library tab, or anywhere you add it to your workspace), where you also filter for keywords/tags. In the "..." settings of the tool, "Show/Hide filters" allows you to select from available data fields. Under "vendor specific", you'll find "camera lens". "Camera model" is found under "EXIF - Camera".

If you'd rather use keywords/tags, the above filter should allow you to quickly apply your user-defined tag to all images taken with a given lens/camera.

Mr Bolton wrote:

Rightsaidfred wrote:

My decent baseline

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4660084

Regards,

Martin

Wow, that's a fantastic thread for someone like me who's also on Linux. Reminds me of how much I need to up my post production game, and I thank you sincerely for facilitating that!

Thank you for your kind words.

There's nothing really special with my workflow.

What one needs for Fujifilm film simulation emulation is good LUTs.

I've tried all LUTs I could get hold of - the best LUTs I could ever find are from Stuart Sowerby for X-Trans III. They're a few years old and limited at certain film simulations. They're pretty good, they also work for X-Trans IV, they just sometimes fail with larger monochromic areas resp. special frequencies.

Recently, Bastibe composed the LUT Maker, a script that allows to make one's own LUTs from a (larger) set of images. I haven't tried yet but want to. Just need to find the time.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66326018

https://github.com/bastibe/LUT-Maker

Regards,

Martin

FTOG wrote:

koweb wrote:

One other note is the options to search your catalogue; C1 does allow for unlimited tagging and adding metadata, but LR adds a lot of that automatically (for example, I haven't found an easy way to search by what camera or lens I used, unless you add that to your images - which you can do in C1, whereas seems much more done automatically in LR)

This can be done with the filters tool (on the library tab, or anywhere you add it to your workspace), where you also filter for keywords/tags. In the "..." settings of the tool, "Show/Hide filters" allows you to select from available data fields. Under "vendor specific", you'll find "camera lens". "Camera model" is found under "EXIF - Camera".

If you'd rather use keywords/tags, the above filter should allow you to quickly apply your user-defined tag to all images taken with a given lens/camera.

Awesome, thanks!

Jerry-astro wrote:

It’s easy to blame the gear or to think you’re working with substandard software, but I’m pretty confident that the quality of output you’re seeing and any issues you’re experiencing are just as likely to be behind the keyboard and camera as they are with the application itself.

In the IT world when we are troubleshooting, we often run into some common problems.  The first is the PICNIC error, but in this case I think it's an ID-Ten-T error.

Doug MacMillan wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

It’s easy to blame the gear or to think you’re working with substandard software, but I’m pretty confident that the quality of output you’re seeing and any issues you’re experiencing are just as likely to be behind the keyboard and camera as they are with the application itself.

In the IT world when we are troubleshooting, we often run into some common problems. The first is the PICNIC error, but in this case I think it's an ID-Ten-T error.

Ouch, that's harsh... overly so, IMHO...

koweb wrote:

Batdude wrote:

koweb wrote:

Dismayed wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Who has the balls to come out with a much better RAW converter that truly competes with Adobe Lightroom Classic? We need one.

The only reason why I use LR is because of (it's workflow, that's it!) but as a Fujifilm shooter the files it produces are really poor. When I was using the Fujifilm S5 Pro no problem, but then after several years after upgrading to newer cameras you can definitely see the problem. Color tones, film simulations, sharpness and detail is simply not there and you have to spend a LOT more time messing around with this nonsense. Fujifilm is Fujifilm, not Sony, although I get the feeling that Sony RAW files are easier to manage now over Fujifilm, with Lightroom that is.

That's the first problem. The second problem is that for importing/exporting Lightroom is SUPER SLOW.

One of the comments I liked from the thread "Do You Want 40MP?" is that someone said that more megapixels is only going to get worse. And that's true. But, the hardware is not the only problem, is the software that will be the bottleneck and will slow things up drastically as MP keep increasing.

Sure, if you don't shoot over 1000 photos it should be fine, but over that forget it.

I hope someone comes out with better faster software than Adobe Lightroom with the same or even better workflow and I would be delighted to make the change.

There are at least a dozen alternatives to Lightroom. C1P and DXO Photolab Pro are two that I've used myself. Try Google.

Well, to play devil's advocate here, it is not nearly as simple as you try to make it... and, you have completely ignored the OPs comment that he uses LR because of its powerful workflows that work to process 1000s of photos.

I found and started watching this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI_xzChEAk8

I am super busy and it will take me quite some time to find out more about C1, even if I buy the software it will take me time to learn what it can or can't do. But, since you mentioned it, is there a limit as to how many pictures one can load? Is C1 not capable of loading 1000s of photos? After watching that video I got the impression that there is no limit? Can you or someone expand on that?

Also, one of the tools I use in LR a LOT is the Spot Removal and Copy and Paste tools and I would definitely need that and I'm not sure if C1 has that haha

Also, unlike LR, does C1 take full advantage of a graphics card? I currently have a GTX1070 and heck I would even be willing to buy something much newer if only the software actually uses it.

Also curious, does C1 support 10 bit color?

Thanks.

Can you provide the google search link to the dozens of options that have the power of LR workflows? Or, can you provide your workflows to intake, process and manage 1000s of images, when you use C1 or DXO?

Sorry if I've caused any confusion... you are correct that C1 can manage 1000s of photos and I don't believe there is a limit. And, I really prefer using C1 "sessions" instead of a catalogue (basically a session can live with a job full of photos so easy to use it on multiple computers, or from multiple storage mediums. But C1 can do a catalogue also if you prefer). That said, there are differences in how you intake photos and to me LR still has an advantage here. As you compare, note whether the limitations of C1 will impact your workflows.

One other note is the options to search your catalogue; C1 does allow for unlimited tagging and adding metadata, but LR adds a lot of that automatically (for example, I haven't found an easy way to search by what camera or lens I used, unless you add that to your images - which you can do in C1, whereas seems much more done automatically in LR). There are a lot of event and wedding photographers who use and like C1, but from your posts I would encourage you to make sure the workflows system will work for you.

As to the PP part, the interface is definitely different, but you can turn on a "classic" interface now that will ease the transition. As I and others have mentioned, C1 is far easier than LR at color processing, and I get better, more consistent results, in less time.

One last note - C1 has had a pattern of releasing new versions of their software at the end of October, so the scuttlebutt is that C1 v23 is right around the corner. You likely could get a 30 day trial now and expect to buy v23 when released.

I hope this is useful - in some ways C1 has advantages vs LR and in other ways disadvantages... it will take a bit of work to see if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, for you.

Yes you have indeed been very very helpful thank you so much and either way I’ll buy it if the new one comes out soon. I have a few photo shoots this month so I will be busy PP those photos to turn in to the customer then I’ll start making time to start learning how to use C1 and it will take me a long time to figure out what I can and can’t do with it thanks again for your input 👍

-- hide signature --

Bradk
“This then: to photograph a rock, have it look like a rock, but be more than a rock.” – Edward Weston

AyeYo wrote:

koweb wrote:

Dismayed wrote:

Batdude wrote:

Who has the balls to come out with a much better RAW converter that truly competes with Adobe Lightroom Classic? We need one.

The only reason why I use LR is because of (it's workflow, that's it!) but as a Fujifilm shooter the files it produces are really poor. When I was using the Fujifilm S5 Pro no problem, but then after several years after upgrading to newer cameras you can definitely see the problem. Color tones, film simulations, sharpness and detail is simply not there and you have to spend a LOT more time messing around with this nonsense. Fujifilm is Fujifilm, not Sony, although I get the feeling that Sony RAW files are easier to manage now over Fujifilm, with Lightroom that is.

That's the first problem. The second problem is that for importing/exporting Lightroom is SUPER SLOW.

One of the comments I liked from the thread "Do You Want 40MP?" is that someone said that more megapixels is only going to get worse. And that's true. But, the hardware is not the only problem, is the software that will be the bottleneck and will slow things up drastically as MP keep increasing.

Sure, if you don't shoot over 1000 photos it should be fine, but over that forget it.

I hope someone comes out with better faster software than Adobe Lightroom with the same or even better workflow and I would be delighted to make the change.

There are at least a dozen alternatives to Lightroom. C1P and DXO Photolab Pro are two that I've used myself. Try Google.

Well, to play devil's advocate here, it is not nearly as simple as you try to make it... and, you have completely ignored the OPs comment that he uses LR because of its powerful workflows that work to process 1000s of photos.

Can you provide the google search link to the dozens of options that have the power of LR workflows? Or, can you provide your workflows to intake, process and manage 1000s of images, when you use C1 or DXO?

No, because other programs can't do it, which is something that repeatedly gets ignored when alternatives are offered.

The accusation by non-Lightroom users is always that Lightroom users haven't tried other programs, but I think it's actually the opposite that's true. If I cared enough, I'd do a live screen capture of an edit session in Lightroom with a large number of photos that include the need for some HDR merges and sky replacements, and then see what other programs someone else could use to replicate it in the same amount of time. My money would be on it not happening.

Workflows differ by tool.  Stay with whatever you're used to if you're incapable of change.

This was you opening statement..does not seem like you are just not happy with import/export

"Who has the balls to come out with a much better RAW converter that truly competes with Adobe Lightroom Classic? We need one."

Don't ask the question if you can't handle the answer

Doug MacMillan wrote:

Jerry-astro wrote:

It’s easy to blame the gear or to think you’re working with substandard software, but I’m pretty confident that the quality of output you’re seeing and any issues you’re experiencing are just as likely to be behind the keyboard and camera as they are with the application itself.

In the IT world when we are troubleshooting, we often run into some common problems. The first is the PICNIC error, but in this case I think it's an ID-Ten-T error.

OK, I had to look those up.  Perhaps that's just a bit on the harsh side, Doug.  But they both translate to user issues, not problems attributable to equipment or software, and in that context, apply here.

I definitely saw this one coming as it seems as if it's difficult for a few folks here to discuss this issue without things getting unpleasant and a trollish comment or two getting thrown into the mix.  I won't call out individuals here, but I am going to ask that forum members please take a big "chill pill" when commenting in threads like this and keep your comments on point and impersonal.

As such, I think the discussion has run its course and I have chosen to lock the thread.  Please be aware that this is -- and has always been -- a very contentious topic, so if someone chooses to reopen the discussion, understand that it will be watched closely and Mod intervention will follow if things continue to head downhill.  And, comments of a personal nature may result in a temporary (or worse) loss of privileges.