Fujifilm X-H2 and Electronic Shutter

If you check out from 04m25 on Kai W's initial review there is at least the briefest of glimpses of the rolling shutter:

Fujifilm X-H2 - Street Photography Hands-on - YouTube

FWIW the rest of the review is meh. I don't know if it's his nonchalant style but he claims to not know many of the specs or just plain gets them wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hands on reviews as opposed to just listing specs on paper but I think if they organically crop up in the review video he should at least know them or get them right.

I don’t have any significant electronic rolling shutter or mechanical shutter shock issues with the X-T2, so I’m not especially worried about it.

XenonDeathFlash wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

I don’t have any significant electronic rolling shutter or mechanical shutter shock issues with the X-T2, so I’m not especially worried about it.

I have had major problems with rolling shutter when using ES on the XT2. So much so that I only use MS now.

What are you shooting? I generally use the MS too, but I've shot plenty with the ES and have seen maybe two barely objectionable examples of rolling shutter in many thousands of shots. My X100V has faster readout and I haven't noticed any ES trouble at all with it (much more trouble with the leaf shutter).

If video is your prime concern where fast action is involved - then the X-H2 would be the better choice.  A stacked sensor is going to have a faster read out than a non-stacked sensor.  On the other hand we don't know what the rolling shutter will be in the XH2 since no one has published an full in depth review of this issue with final F/W.  I expect Jordan on DPR will put it through its paces when the production camera is available.

However, while a stacked sensor will have a better faster read out than a non-stacked sensor, this sensor in the XH2 is state of the art technology and hence we will need to see how it performs.  Will it have rolling shutter - sure. Will it be significant - we don't know.  A mechanical shutter will produce rolling shutter under certain conditions since a slit travels across the sensor and the whole sensor is not exposed at the same time even with a mechanical sensor.

GMacF wrote:

If you check out from 04m25 on Kai W's initial review there is at least the briefest of glimpses of the rolling shutter:

Fujifilm X-H2 - Street Photography Hands-on - YouTube

FWIW the rest of the review is meh. I don't know if it's his nonchalant style but he claims to not know many of the specs or just plain gets them wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hands on reviews as opposed to just listing specs on paper but I think if they organically crop up in the review video he should at least know them or get them right.

Agreed. And Kai's reviews are based on what, an hour of handling the camera, so he doesn't really get to know the camera at all. His reviews are worthwhile in that they come early and are better than spec sheets, but they aren't as good as in depth reviews with people that have used the camera for at least a few days if not weeks.

Truman Prevatt wrote:

If video is your prime concern where fast action is involved - then the X-H2 would be the better choice.

Don't you mean X-H2S? Apologies if I've misread/misunderstood.

A stacked sensor is going to have a faster read out than a non-stacked sensor. On the other hand we don't know what the rolling shutter will be in the XH2 since no one has published an full in depth review of this issue with final F/W. I expect Jordan on DPR will put it through its paces when the production camera is available.

However, while a stacked sensor will have a better faster read out than a non-stacked sensor, this sensor in the XH2 is state of the art technology and hence we will need to see how it performs. Will it have rolling shutter - sure. Will it be significant - we don't know. A mechanical shutter will produce rolling shutter under certain conditions since a slit travels across the sensor and the whole sensor is not exposed at the same time even with a mechanical sensor.

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

I’ve had cameras with bad rolling shutter and rarely had an issue. Why? Because I don’t do whip pans which I feel nauseate my audience anyway. So when I do pan, I pan slowly.

If your style of shooting is such the RS is going to be an issue, look toward the S.

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

It depends on the type of videos they’re going to make.  Interviews or slow moving objects through a scene, will probably be okay.  If they want it more advanced than that, then they need to grab the X-H2s.

I believe the only camera doing as well as the X-H2s is the A7S3.

XenonDeathFlash wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

XenonDeathFlash wrote:

Erik Baumgartner wrote:

I don’t have any significant electronic rolling shutter or mechanical shutter shock issues with the X-T2, so I’m not especially worried about it.

I have had major problems with rolling shutter when using ES on the XT2. So much so that I only use MS now.

What are you shooting? I generally use the MS too, but I've shot plenty with the ES and have seen maybe two barely objectionable examples of rolling shutter in many thousands of shots. My X100V has faster readout and I haven't noticed any ES trouble at all with it (much more trouble with the leaf shutter).

Mainly weddings, I noticed it a lot with my longer lenses (50mm eq. and longer) where I took bursts of shots the most. When looking through them in LR afterwards the whole scene would wobble.

Oh it is definitely there and easy to create if you wanted to.  Just shoot cars driving by and inevitably one or two of them will look like a Ghetto Stretched Limo.

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

You are speaking of readout time, that translate into rolling shutter.

The electronic Shutter of the XH2 is 2,5 stop faster than the XH2S : 1/180 000 instead of 1/32000. By comparison the Canon eos R3 is 1/64 000

GMacF wrote:

Truman Prevatt wrote:

If video is your prime concern where fast action is involved - then the X-H2 would be the better choice.

Don't you mean X-H2S? Apologies if I've misread/misunderstood.

Of course I did.

A stacked sensor is going to have a faster read out than a non-stacked sensor. On the other hand we don't know what the rolling shutter will be in the XH2 since no one has published an full in depth review of this issue with final F/W. I expect Jordan on DPR will put it through its paces when the production camera is available.

However, while a stacked sensor will have a better faster read out than a non-stacked sensor, this sensor in the XH2 is state of the art technology and hence we will need to see how it performs. Will it have rolling shutter - sure. Will it be significant - we don't know. A mechanical shutter will produce rolling shutter under certain conditions since a slit travels across the sensor and the whole sensor is not exposed at the same time even with a mechanical sensor.

Powerdoc wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

You are speaking of readout time, that translate into rolling shutter.

The electronic Shutter of the XH2 is 2,5 stop faster than the XH2S : 1/180 000 instead of 1/32000. By comparison the Canon eos R3 is 1/64 000

Shutter speed is not what creates rolling shutter. Shutter speed is related to the time the sensor is exposed. A mechanical shutter can cause rolling shutter at higher shutter speeds as the mechanical shutter becomes a slit illuminating the sensor with the top of the sensor illuminated a little before the bottom. A good indication of rolling shutter potential is flash sync time not shutter speed.

The flash sync time on the XH2S is 1/250 mechanical and 1/250 electrical. That is about the same as the Nikon Z9 which eliminated the mechanical shutter.

For the XH2, the mechanical sync is 1/250 and electronic is 1/125 which is twice that of the XH2S. So the XH2 will have more potential for rolling shutter.

https://fujifilm-x.com/en-us/products/cameras/x-h2/specifications/

As a reference, the Nikon Z9 has a shutter sync speed of 1/200 and Nikon felt that good enough to eliminate the mechanical shutter.

Only time and usage will determine how and when rolling shutter shows up in the XH2 when it doesn't in the XH2S under the same conditions.

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

You may be conflating two concepts: E-shutter that is used for all videos and mechanical shutter shock for still photos. Most modern Fuji cameras have an alternative shutter setting (to full mechanical shutter) called E-Front Curtain Shutter. It is often set as the factory default and can be combined with full mechanical at higher shutter speeds for IQ benefits where shutter shock is not a problem.

E-Front Curtain Shutter has been adopted by most camera companies: Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic (Lumix), Olympus and others. It has proven to be very effective at substantially reducing shutter shock. It has done a great job on my 102MP Fuji 100S. Of course the only way to 100% eliminate shutter shock is with an electronic shutter. Without a stacked sensor (like the X-H2S, Sony A1, Nikon Z9 have) electronic shutters are slow in scanning and reduced DR, making them compromised with imaging defects often undesirable for still photos and also for video as you point out.

goodbokeh wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

You may be conflating two concepts: E-shutter that is used for all videos and mechanical shutter shock for still photos. Most modern Fuji cameras have an alternative shutter setting (to full mechanical shutter) called E-Front Curtain Shutter. It is often set as the factory default and can be combined with full mechanical at higher shutter speeds for IQ benefits where shutter shock is not a problem.

E-Front Curtain Shutter has been adopted by most camera companies: Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic (Lumix), Olympus and others. It has proven to be very effective at substantially reducing shutter shock. It has done a great job on my 102MP Fuji 100S. Of course the only way to 100% eliminate shutter shock is with an electronic shutter. Without a stacked sensor (like the X-H2S, Sony A1, Nikon Z9 have) electronic shutters are slow in scanning and reduced DR, making them compromised with imaging defects often undesirable for still photos and also for video as you point out.

It's a known and well documented fact that Electronic first curtain produces rendering artifacts.

Here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KnE1MEJ_2g

There are plenty of other documented examples.

EFC was a good idea but when it escaped into the wild - it was shown to have problems. All shutters where the total sensor is not exposed instantaneously can and will in certain situations produce artifacts. The solution is all the sensor be exposed instantaneously. On the mechanical side a in lens leaf shutter is the solution. On the electronic side a global electronic shutter is the solution.

The issue with in lens leaf shutters it makes lenses expensive which is why focal plane shutters were invented. For electronic shutters - well it would require an instantaneously read out of the sensor.  Back in the day, MicroSoft developed and touted an OS the called NT.  It did everything for everyone and eliminated the gross hackability of Windows.  Promises, promises,..., it was so late and so bad NT became to be known as Not There.  I never made it of course.

A global shutter is the Holy Grail of digital photography.  Some very, very expensive military cameras have global shutters for a premium price.  Some industrial security cameras have a global shutter but their size is pretty limited - not FF or APSC sizes. Not as expensive as the military versions but a heck of a lot more expensive than what the consumer would want to pay.

So the promise of global shutters to end the issues of mechanical shutters and electronic shutters and worse their half and half off-spring known as the EFC in consumer cameras is like the MicroSoft promise of a good robust OS, NT - Not There yet.

Truman Prevatt wrote:

goodbokeh wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

You may be conflating two concepts: E-shutter that is used for all videos and mechanical shutter shock for still photos. Most modern Fuji cameras have an alternative shutter setting (to full mechanical shutter) called E-Front Curtain Shutter. It is often set as the factory default and can be combined with full mechanical at higher shutter speeds for IQ benefits where shutter shock is not a problem.

E-Front Curtain Shutter has been adopted by most camera companies: Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic (Lumix), Olympus and others. It has proven to be very effective at substantially reducing shutter shock. It has done a great job on my 102MP Fuji 100S. Of course the only way to 100% eliminate shutter shock is with an electronic shutter. Without a stacked sensor (like the X-H2S, Sony A1, Nikon Z9 have) electronic shutters are slow in scanning and reduced DR, making them compromised with imaging defects often undesirable for still photos and also for video as you point out.

It's a known and well documented fact that Electronic first curtain produces rendering artifacts.

Here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KnE1MEJ_2g

There are plenty of other documented examples.

EFC was a good idea but when it escaped into the wild - it was shown to have problems. All shutters where the total sensor is not exposed instantaneously can and will in certain situations produce artifacts. The solution is all the sensor be exposed instantaneously. On the mechanical side a in lens leaf shutter is the solution. On the electronic side a global electronic shutter is the solution.

The issue with in lens leaf shutters it makes lenses expensive which is why focal plane shutters were invented. For electronic shutters - well it would require an instantaneously read out of the sensor. Back in the day, MicroSoft developed and touted an OS the called NT. It did everything for everyone and eliminated the gross hackability of Windows. Promises, promises,..., it was so late and so bad NT became to be known as Not There. I never made it of course.

A global shutter is the Holy Grail of digital photography. Some very, very expensive military cameras have global shutters for a premium price. Some industrial security cameras have a global shutter but their size is pretty limited - not FF or APSC sizes. Not as expensive as the military versions but a heck of a lot more expensive than what the consumer would want to pay.

So the promise of global shutters to end the issues of mechanical shutters and electronic shutters and worse their half and half off-spring known as the EFC in consumer cameras is like the MicroSoft promise of a good robust OS, NT - Not There yet.

Truman, yes the pie in the sky Global Shutter has been talked about for years and years and is irrelevant today and for years to come. Leaf shutters have their own drawbacks.

In the here and now you do own an X-Pro3. One of the shutter options for that camera is "E-Front Curtain + Mechanical" where the mechanical shutter takes over at 1/2000 sec. That setting is meant to deal with both shutter shock and bokeh artifacts and inaccurate exposure of a pure electronic front curtain setting.

"E-Front Curtain + Mechanical": Shutter shock minimized, good bokeh and exposure accuracy maximized in this imperfect world of no Global Shutter.

goodbokeh wrote:

Truman Prevatt wrote:

goodbokeh wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

From what I gather so far, it seems like the e-shutter is nowhere close to being as fast as the X-H2S so rolling shutter will be a problem. However, I'm now reading that some people still intend to buy this camera for shooting movies? Whoa? Am I missing something here? After using an e-shutter, I hesitate to go back to the mechanical shutter for fear of shutter shock despite the supposed improvement Fujifilm made. What do you guys think? I really wish DPR and everyone else will go in-depth about the e-shutter in their eventual review.

You may be conflating two concepts: E-shutter that is used for all videos and mechanical shutter shock for still photos. Most modern Fuji cameras have an alternative shutter setting (to full mechanical shutter) called E-Front Curtain Shutter. It is often set as the factory default and can be combined with full mechanical at higher shutter speeds for IQ benefits where shutter shock is not a problem.

E-Front Curtain Shutter has been adopted by most camera companies: Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic (Lumix), Olympus and others. It has proven to be very effective at substantially reducing shutter shock. It has done a great job on my 102MP Fuji 100S. Of course the only way to 100% eliminate shutter shock is with an electronic shutter. Without a stacked sensor (like the X-H2S, Sony A1, Nikon Z9 have) electronic shutters are slow in scanning and reduced DR, making them compromised with imaging defects often undesirable for still photos and also for video as you point out.

It's a known and well documented fact that Electronic first curtain produces rendering artifacts.

Here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KnE1MEJ_2g

There are plenty of other documented examples.

EFC was a good idea but when it escaped into the wild - it was shown to have problems. All shutters where the total sensor is not exposed instantaneously can and will in certain situations produce artifacts. The solution is all the sensor be exposed instantaneously. On the mechanical side a in lens leaf shutter is the solution. On the electronic side a global electronic shutter is the solution.

The issue with in lens leaf shutters it makes lenses expensive which is why focal plane shutters were invented. For electronic shutters - well it would require an instantaneously read out of the sensor. Back in the day, MicroSoft developed and touted an OS the called NT. It did everything for everyone and eliminated the gross hackability of Windows. Promises, promises,..., it was so late and so bad NT became to be known as Not There. I never made it of course.

A global shutter is the Holy Grail of digital photography. Some very, very expensive military cameras have global shutters for a premium price. Some industrial security cameras have a global shutter but their size is pretty limited - not FF or APSC sizes. Not as expensive as the military versions but a heck of a lot more expensive than what the consumer would want to pay.

So the promise of global shutters to end the issues of mechanical shutters and electronic shutters and worse their half and half off-spring known as the EFC in consumer cameras is like the MicroSoft promise of a good robust OS, NT - Not There yet.

Truman, yes the pie in the sky Global Shutter has been talked about for years and years and is irrelevant today and for years to come. Leaf shutters have their own drawbacks.

In the here and now you do own an X-Pro3. One of the shutter options for that camera is "E-Front Curtain + Mechanical" where the mechanical shutter takes over at 1/2000 sec. That setting is meant to deal with both shutter shock and bokeh artifacts and inaccurate exposure of a pure electronic front curtain setting.

"E-Front Curtain + Mechanical": Shutter shock minimized, good bokeh and exposure accuracy maximized in this imperfect world of no Global Shutter.

Yes I do own a XPro3. I also own a XH1 which my wife stole. At first I set them to EFC+mechanical+E. After the first indications of issues surfaced which I believe was a Nikon or Canon - I started researching the issue. What I found was it is not one camera - it is the EFC shutter design across the board. It also can be seen in shutter speeds well below 1/2000. I have changed my default settings to M+E. I am much more pleased with the results. The big drawback with the lens shutter is speed. It maxes out much lower than a focal plane shutter. A global shutter will arrive at some point but it is a ways off.

I am a bokeh snob. I don't want cats eyes or onion rings. One of the things the the EFC does is to turn what should be nice round fuzzy gaussian shaped bokeh balls into balls with sharp cut off. When I noticed this I started researching the issue.

There are plenty of YouTubes showing this but of course none of them really understand why. There is a simple physical reason.

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/116682/why-does-electronic-first-curtain-shutter-affect-rendering-of-blurred-background

The key is to get the read out fast enough so that it is as fast as the mechanical slip scan of the sensor and then the ES will not produce any more rolling shutter than the mechanical shutter.  Nikon seems to think they have it in the Z9.  The flash sync speed of the XH2S is comparable to that of the Z9 and is the same for ES and MS so the XH2S may be there.  If that is the case - then no need for EFS.

If you like EFS - fine by me.  I, however, don't like otherwise nice fuzzy bokeh balls cut off in sharp edges.

But that’s a trade off, because some cameras produce shutter shock if you don’t.