R5 on AirPower 2022

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Joe Reynolds wrote:

>>> also find electronic shutter and H+ to help with tracking.<<<

Is H+ even active with electronic shutter?

Yes you can select it, but in checking, it does not make a difference if you are using electronic shutter. All 3 (Slow, High, and High+) continuous drive modes are 20 shots per second. With electronic shutter effectively you have single shot or 20 frames per second. The Slow, H, and H+ (and battery level) only come into play with EFC and full mechanical.

Lots of complaints as to why Canon did not add FPS control when released and FW updates.

It would be nice to have, but what I really want is some kind of optional audible feedback.

I have tried using EFC to slow down the shutter rate, but I find it harder to smoothly trace the airplanes in the viewfinder. Also, shooting airplanes at low shutter speeds, it does help to have more pictures to choose from. At low shutter speeds and long focal lengths, less than 1 in 20 might be good, so I would typically keep the frame rate high anyway.

I think the R3 offers no blackout in EFC? The high end Sony does and was one reason why I almost went to Sony when deciding to go all out ML.

I don't think it is possible to have no blackout with a shutter. Think about it, the shutter blocks off the sensor with mirrorless.

I think Sony has a sensor or something like that which bypasses the shutter. I'm not sure but the gang Fred Miranda talked about it. No blackout at all apparently.

The future is going to be backside illuminated (high-end Sony, Nikon, and R3 have already) and eventually global electronic shutter. As these technologies greatly reduce/eliminate rolling shutter combined with flash and illumination synchronization will see mechanical shutters go the way of DLSR flip mirrors (Nikon has already eliminated mechanical shutters on their highest-end models).

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Joe Reynolds wrote:

>>> also find electronic shutter and H+ to help with tracking.<<<

Is H+ even active with electronic shutter?

Yes you can select it, but in checking, it does not make a difference if you are using electronic shutter. All 3 (Slow, High, and High+) continuous drive modes are 20 shots per second. With electronic shutter effectively you have single shot or 20 frames per second. The Slow, H, and H+ (and battery level) only come into play with EFC and full mechanical.

Lots of complaints as to why Canon did not add FPS control when released and FW updates.

It would be nice to have, but what I really want is some kind of optional audible feedback.

I have tried using EFC to slow down the shutter rate, but I find it harder to smoothly trace the airplanes in the viewfinder. Also, shooting airplanes at low shutter speeds, it does help to have more pictures to choose from. At low shutter speeds and long focal lengths, less than 1 in 20 might be good, so I would typically keep the frame rate high anyway.

I think the R3 offers no blackout in EFC? The high end Sony does and was one reason why I almost went to Sony when deciding to go all out ML.

I don't think it is possible to have no blackout with a shutter. Think about it, the shutter blocks off the sensor with mirrorless.

I think Sony has a sensor or something like that which bypasses the shutter. I'm not sure but the gang Fred Miranda talked about it. No blackout at all apparently.

I'm assuming this is not E shutter but I could be wrong.

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/20fps-no-blackout-looks-like-sony-a9/

The future is going to be backside illuminated (high-end Sony, Nikon, and R3 have already) and eventually global electronic shutter. As these technologies greatly reduce/eliminate rolling shutter combined with flash and illumination synchronization will see mechanical shutters go the way of DLSR flip mirrors (Nikon has already eliminated mechanical shutters on their highest-end models).

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Joe Reynolds wrote:

>>With Vehicle (or None tracking), AF worked over 99% of the time (in over 20,000 photos) to the point that I could concentrate on framing (zoom and positioning in the frame) and panning technique.<<<

With planes there is not a clutter around so not surprising “object” tracking is decent.
--
---------
https://www.flickr.com/photos/joereynolds3/

I have been practicing and experimenting at the public plane spotting location at DFW (they can get ~100 people on a busy evening) in prep for Wings Over Houston in October and Wings over Dallas in November. I'm trying to see what shutter speeds to use and to improve my panning technique.

What was TS and Switching Tracked Subjects set to?

Good question (that I discussed elsewhere in this topic under "Case").

Answer: For those shots, the Case controls (for others: AF/pink menu, tab 3) of Tracking Sensitivity and Accel/decel tracking were both set to -1. I did this when I first set up my R5 based on Jan Wegener's excellent R5 setup video (part on Case setup: https://youtu.be/-nnRqgXu7QI?t=945).

I'm set at TS -2 and Accel/Decel +1. STS is set to factory - 1. I like this video as well. He has some good visuals. He gets into it at about 7:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IKCU_q7vfE

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Joe Reynolds wrote:

>>With Vehicle (or None tracking), AF worked over 99% of the time (in over 20,000 photos) to the point that I could concentrate on framing (zoom and positioning in the frame) and panning technique.<<<

With planes there is not a clutter around so not surprising “object” tracking is decent.
--
---------
https://www.flickr.com/photos/joereynolds3/

I have been practicing and experimenting at the public plane spotting location at DFW (they can get ~100 people on a busy evening) in prep for Wings Over Houston in October and Wings over Dallas in November. I'm trying to see what shutter speeds to use and to improve my panning technique.

What was TS and Switching Tracked Subjects set to?

Good question (that I discussed elsewhere in this topic under "Case").

Answer: For those shots, the Case controls (for others: AF/pink menu, tab 3) of Tracking Sensitivity and Accel/decel tracking were both set to -1. I did this when I first set up my R5 based on Jan Wegener's excellent R5 setup video (part on Case setup: https://youtu.be/-nnRqgXu7QI?t=945).

I'm not Jan but I've never agreed with using Spot focus. Rudy Winston said in an article and video not to use it for action shots. To get a subject in focus (when the camera can't find an eye) I use Single Point or Zone AF. Single Point is larger so more contrast to work with.

I've gone back to old school and use the shutter. I never had an issue keeping the shutter half pressed but did use BBF with my 7D2 and 5D4.

I set that purple menu on page 5 to Auto. The camera starts to look for an eye after it wakes up. No intervention from me. It's usually pretty good. If it can't the AF-On is set to small Zone AF for BIF and * to Single point for static objects. If it can't find an eye on a perched bird and the bird is OOF I press the *. The AF can be anywhere on the birds body. Once the bird is in focus I go back to Eye AF.

Even if I lift my finger off the shutter between bursts the white prefocus square is still on the birds eye. Thats just me. Many way to set up the camera.

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Joe Reynolds wrote:

>>With Vehicle (or None tracking), AF worked over 99% of the time (in over 20,000 photos) to the point that I could concentrate on framing (zoom and positioning in the frame) and panning technique.<<<

With planes there is not a clutter around so not surprising “object” tracking is decent.
--
---------
https://www.flickr.com/photos/joereynolds3/

I have been practicing and experimenting at the public plane spotting location at DFW (they can get ~100 people on a busy evening) in prep for Wings Over Houston in October and Wings over Dallas in November. I'm trying to see what shutter speeds to use and to improve my panning technique.

What was TS and Switching Tracked Subjects set to?

Good question (that I discussed elsewhere in this topic under "Case").

Answer: For those shots, the Case controls (for others: AF/pink menu, tab 3) of Tracking Sensitivity and Accel/decel tracking were both set to -1. I did this when I first set up my R5 based on Jan Wegener's excellent R5 setup video (part on Case setup: https://youtu.be/-nnRqgXu7QI?t=945).

I'm not Jan but I've never agreed with using Spot focus. Rudy Winston said in an article and video not to use it for action shots. To get a subject in focus (when the camera can't find an eye) I use Single Point or Zone AF. Single Point is larger so more contrast to work with.

I've gone back to old school and use the shutter. I never had an issue keeping the shutter half pressed but did use BBF with my 7D2 and 5D4.

I set that purple menu on page 5 to Auto. The camera starts to look for an eye after it wakes up. No intervention from me. It's usually pretty good. If it can't the AF-On is set to small Zone AF for BIF and * to Single point for static objects. If it can't find an eye on a perched bird and the bird is OOF I press the *. The AF can be anywhere on the birds body. Once the bird is in focus I go back to Eye AF.

Even if I lift my finger off the shutter between bursts the white prefocus square is still on the birds eye. Thats just me. Many way to set up the camera.

I should have said even though Rudy advises not to use Spot for action shots I know people do. Whatever works. I just don't understand why I need it as a pre-focus technique to get the subject in focus. To me the more contrast you work with the better.

I do use Spot for specific purposes. Lots of foliage in the way, small subject so the AF point is pocking up the background, etc or I want focus on a precise area of the curvature of an eye.

After I read this and his explanation of Precise is not the same as Accurate I changed my approach to Spot AF.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180323124819/http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/spot_AF.shtml#page2

Zeee wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Joe Reynolds wrote:

>>With Vehicle (or None tracking), AF worked over 99% of the time (in over 20,000 photos) to the point that I could concentrate on framing (zoom and positioning in the frame) and panning technique.<<<

With planes there is not a clutter around so not surprising “object” tracking is decent.
--
---------
https://www.flickr.com/photos/joereynolds3/

I have been practicing and experimenting at the public plane spotting location at DFW (they can get ~100 people on a busy evening) in prep for Wings Over Houston in October and Wings over Dallas in November. I'm trying to see what shutter speeds to use and to improve my panning technique.

What was TS and Switching Tracked Subjects set to?

Good question (that I discussed elsewhere in this topic under "Case").

Answer: For those shots, the Case controls (for others: AF/pink menu, tab 3) of Tracking Sensitivity and Accel/decel tracking were both set to -1. I did this when I first set up my R5 based on Jan Wegener's excellent R5 setup video (part on Case setup: https://youtu.be/-nnRqgXu7QI?t=945).

I'm not Jan but I've never agreed with using Spot focus. Rudy Winston said in an article and video not to use it for action shots. To get a subject in focus (when the camera can't find an eye) I use Single Point or Zone AF. Single Point is larger so more contrast to work with.

I've gone back to old school and use the shutter. I never had an issue keeping the shutter half pressed but did use BBF with my 7D2 and 5D4.

I set that purple menu on page 5 to Auto. The camera starts to look for an eye after it wakes up. No intervention from me. It's usually pretty good. If it can't the AF-On is set to small Zone AF for BIF and * to Single point for static objects. If it can't find an eye on a perched bird and the bird is OOF I press the *. The AF can be anywhere on the birds body. Once the bird is in focus I go back to Eye AF.

Even if I lift my finger off the shutter between bursts the white prefocus square is still on the birds eye. Thats just me. Many way to set up the camera.

I should have said even though Rudy advises not to use Spot for action shots I know people do. Whatever works. I just don't understand why I need it as a pre-focus technique to get the subject in focus. To me the more contrast you work with the better.

I do use Spot for specific purposes. Lots of foliage in the way, small subject so the AF point is pocking up the background, etc or I want focus on a precise area of the curvature of an eye.

After I read this and his explanation of Precise is not the same as Accurate I changed my approach to Spot AF.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180323124819/http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/spot_AF.shtml#page2

Either way this has been a good thread. Lots of good info.

Zeee wrote:

I don't think it is possible to have no blackout with a shutter. Think about it, the shutter blocks off the sensor with mirrorless.

I think Sony has a sensor or something like that which bypasses the shutter. I'm not sure but the gang Fred Miranda talked about it. No blackout at all apparently.

That would be expensive and not work well. The whole idea of mirrorless is to not have anything between the back of the lens and the sensor.

I'm assuming this is not E shutter but I could be wrong.

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/20fps-no-blackout-looks-like-sony-a9/

You don't hear any shutter in the video, and the A9 is only "blackout-free" when using an electronic shutter.

The future is going to be backside illuminated (high-end Sony, Nikon, and R3 have already) and eventually global electronic shutter. As these technologies greatly reduce/eliminate rolling shutter combined with flash and illumination synchronization will see mechanical shutters go the way of DLSR flip mirrors (Nikon has already eliminated mechanical shutters on their highest-end models).

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

I don't think it is possible to have no blackout with a shutter. Think about it, the shutter blocks off the sensor with mirrorless.

I think Sony has a sensor or something like that which bypasses the shutter. I'm not sure but the gang Fred Miranda talked about it. No blackout at all apparently.

That would be expensive and not work well. The whole idea of mirrorless is to not have anything between the back of the lens and the sensor.

I'm assuming this is not E shutter but I could be wrong.

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/20fps-no-blackout-looks-like-sony-a9/

You don't hear any shutter in the video, and the A9 is only "blackout-free" when using an electronic shutter.

You are correct. I found it at the Sony site. I was looking at it before the R5 was released so it’s been a while. What the A9 has is no rolling shutter effects due the extra processor on the sensor. 
Thanks

The future is going to be backside illuminated (high-end Sony, Nikon, and R3 have already) and eventually global electronic shutter. As these technologies greatly reduce/eliminate rolling shutter combined with flash and illumination synchronization will see mechanical shutters go the way of DLSR flip mirrors (Nikon has already eliminated mechanical shutters on their highest-end models).

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

I don't think it is possible to have no blackout with a shutter. Think about it, the shutter blocks off the sensor with mirrorless.

I think Sony has a sensor or something like that which bypasses the shutter. I'm not sure but the gang Fred Miranda talked about it. No blackout at all apparently.

That would be expensive and not work well. The whole idea of mirrorless is to not have anything between the back of the lens and the sensor.

I'm assuming this is not E shutter but I could be wrong.

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/20fps-no-blackout-looks-like-sony-a9/

You don't hear any shutter in the video, and the A9 is only "blackout-free" when using an electronic shutter.

You are correct. I found it at the Sony site. I was looking at it before the R5 was released so it’s been a while. What the A9 has is no rolling shutter effects due the extra processor on the sensor.
Thanks

Not quite, the A9 still has a small amount of rolling shutter. Sony claims its "20 times faster" (than what, a slow readout sensor? An R5 has significantly less rolling shutter than most Sony and other Canon cameras). The key is the backside illumination and stacked (memory), which lets them read out the sensor faster. For no rolling shutter, they would need a "global electronic shutter" that latches all pixels on the sensor simultaneously.

See also reports from users of the A9's rolling shutter: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4508820

Even with a fast-rolling or even global shutter, they have to deal with non-constant light sources. With flashes, the sensor can be synced with the flash. But some "normal" light sources, most notably many LEDs, flicker and cause banding with a rolling shutter and could be caught "on" or "off" by a global shutter. Cameras are putting sensors on to detect the flickering and try and synchronize the shutter to the light sources (and option on even on cameras like the R5).

The future is going to be backside illuminated (high-end Sony, Nikon, and R3 have already) and eventually global electronic shutter. As these technologies greatly reduce/eliminate rolling shutter combined with flash and illumination synchronization will see mechanical shutters go the way of DLSR flip mirrors (Nikon has already eliminated mechanical shutters on their highest-end models).

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Karl_Guttag wrote:

Zeee wrote:

I don't think it is possible to have no blackout with a shutter. Think about it, the shutter blocks off the sensor with mirrorless.

I think Sony has a sensor or something like that which bypasses the shutter. I'm not sure but the gang Fred Miranda talked about it. No blackout at all apparently.

That would be expensive and not work well. The whole idea of mirrorless is to not have anything between the back of the lens and the sensor.

I'm assuming this is not E shutter but I could be wrong.

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/20fps-no-blackout-looks-like-sony-a9/

You don't hear any shutter in the video, and the A9 is only "blackout-free" when using an electronic shutter.

You are correct. I found it at the Sony site. I was looking at it before the R5 was released so it’s been a while. What the A9 has is no rolling shutter effects due the extra processor on the sensor.
Thanks

Not quite, the A9 still has a small amount of rolling shutter. Sony claims its "20 times faster" (than what, a slow readout sensor? An R5 has significantly less rolling shutter than most Sony and other Canon cameras). The key is the backside illumination and stacked (memory), which lets them read out the sensor faster. For no rolling shutter, they would need a "global electronic shutter" that latches all pixels on the sensor simultaneously.

It was 20 times faster on 2019. I guess the people at Fred Miranda didn’t provide accurate info. The read speed apparently was fast enough to prevent rolling shutter where the R5 fell short. Oh well I went with Canon.

See also reports from users of the A9's rolling shutter: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4508820

Even with a fast-rolling or even global shutter, they have to deal with non-constant light sources. With flashes, the sensor can be synced with the flash. But some "normal" light sources, most notably many LEDs, flicker and cause banding with a rolling shutter and could be caught "on" or "off" by a global shutter. Cameras are putting sensors on to detect the flickering and try and synchronize the shutter to the light sources (and option on even on cameras like the R5).

The future is going to be backside illuminated (high-end Sony, Nikon, and R3 have already) and eventually global electronic shutter. As these technologies greatly reduce/eliminate rolling shutter combined with flash and illumination synchronization will see mechanical shutters go the way of DLSR flip mirrors (Nikon has already eliminated mechanical shutters on their highest-end models).