M50 AF question for AF nerds

I am asking two questions here:

1. Which AF mode with my M50 for low light skating rink photos of my daughter?  Any technique input?

2. Do I need more than 1/125 - 1/250th?   When you see how dark they are you will understand.

I could usually get my older daughter on stage with 1/125-1/160th.   Sometimes even with stage lights there was not enough light.  So 160th would freeze 80% of the photos decently.

Now my younger daughter is doing competition in some skating rinks that are all very poorly lit.   Here home rink is the worst.

Here are some test photos I took, some edited, some have noise reduction, most have none.   Taken with M50 and 50mm f1.8, m40mm, 70-200 f4, 40-200 f2.8, and lastly the Sigma 50-150mm f2.8 which will be the final lens choice for me as it allows semi close and semi far shots in that focal length on a crop sensor.

There are also some photos I took with my Sony RX10 Mark4 in a better lit rink.   The Sony is a dream for most sports but just cant produce in this dark of setting.

Of course I could get a full frame, etc, but trying to not buy a new body.   Although I will consider that.

Here are the test photos.  https://www.scottzinda.com/Performing-Arts/Skate-Testing/n-tvns5N/

Here are dance photos with better light taken with many different cameras including an FZ200 that did quite well.   The Olympus OMDEM1 photos were the easiest.   But I have sold that.  https://www.scottzinda.com/Performing-Arts

I have read and tested that in servo AF the the FPS is around 7.5 and in single focus the FPS is 10.  I think 7.5 is enough but 10 could grab a better photo here and there.   
But as far as focus technique the M50 tracking and face detect works well in slower settings but someone dancing is difficult and not reliable.  The way I am using it.   Let me know if there is a better way.   Even using my thumb to point on the screen and face just becomes too much work while composing.

Single point is OK but not ideal at the speed of this skate dancing.   Center and multipoint seems to work good, but I am still not getting the jump spins in focus.    I am wondering if it's about the shutter speed.   But I have plenty of shots in focus at 1/160th just not the jumps.

Any input would be very must appreciated.   I know this is a book, which is why I titled it for people willing to dig into these details.  "Nerds"   I love Nerds.

This is how dark.

Edited

Thank you!

I cannot speak to the specifics of the M50 as I don’t have one (I could go on all day about the M6ii ), but I do have some general recommendations for this kind of shooting.

First and foremost, no matter what body and lens you end up shooting with, I very highly recommend using DxO’s Photolab for post processing (shoot RAW and process the noise with its Deep Prime noise reduction).  It’s as close to a miracle worker as you can get.

You won’t be able to avoid some very high ISOs.  Try not to underexpose.

As you’ve been doing, find that balance between slow shutter speeds and acceptable keeper rates.  The “edited” sample you posted is (truly) beautiful, but as you’ve been finding out, the slow shutter speeds will make it very hard to capture the fast action.  For those jumps you’ll generally need a lot higher shutter speed (and commensurately higher ISO).  Track as well as you possibly can.

One thing that will help the autofocus is for your subjects to wear very bright and contrasty clothing.  I’ll often AF on a person’s jersey when shooting sports.  Turning off Exposure Simulation can also give the autofocus a better/ brighter image to focus on.  I like using Spot AF with my M6ii, as it’s faster to acquire focus, and holds onto subjects better than Face/Eye detect.  The M50 may behave differently though.

You’re definitely better off with the larger sensors for this type of shooting.  And the fastest lenses (ie fast primes) will allow you to keep those shutter speeds up.  You may have to give up the flexibility (and some reach) vs your zooms, but the results will be far better.  There’s a huge difference between f/1.4 and f/2.8.  The Canon EF-M 32mm and Sigma EF-M 56mm spring to mind.  Maybe a longer prime too.

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.  Shoot a LOT.  Expect a little.  Holler back with any questions.

R2

Thank you R2   Your answer is great    I will try the DXO photo lab     The M50 and M6 version one were similar AF   I don’t recall stressing my M6 this much.   Primes are definitely on my mind.

Thank you

R2D2 wrote:

I cannot speak to the specifics of the M50 as I don’t have one (I could go on all day about the M6ii ), but I do have some general recommendations for this kind of shooting.

First and foremost, no matter what body and lens you end up shooting with, I very highly recommend using DxO’s Photolab for post processing (shoot RAW and process the noise with its Deep Prime noise reduction). It’s as close to a miracle worker as you can get.

You won’t be able to avoid some very high ISOs. Try not to underexpose.

As you’ve been doing, find that balance between slow shutter speeds and acceptable keeper rates. The “edited” sample you posted is (truly) beautiful, but as you’ve been finding out, the slow shutter speeds will make it very hard to capture the fast action. For those jumps you’ll generally need a lot higher shutter speed (and commensurately higher ISO). Track as well as you possibly can.

One thing that will help the autofocus is for your subjects to wear very bright and contrasty clothing. I’ll often AF on a person’s jersey when shooting sports. Turning off Exposure Simulation can also give the autofocus a better/ brighter image to focus on. I like using Spot AF with my M6ii, as it’s faster to acquire focus, and holds onto subjects better than Face/Eye detect. The M50 may behave differently though.

You’re definitely better off with the larger sensors for this type of shooting. And the fastest lenses (ie fast primes) will allow you to keep those shutter speeds up. You may have to give up the flexibility (and some reach) vs your zooms, but the results will be far better. There’s a huge difference between f/1.4 and f/2.8. The Canon EF-M 32mm and Sigma EF-M 56mm spring to mind. Maybe a longer prime too.

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get. Shoot a LOT. Expect a little. Holler back with any questions.

R2

Hi.

phazelag wrote:

I am asking two questions here:

1. Which AF mode with my M50 for low light skating rink photos of my daughter? Any technique input?

Between 1 photo setup and servo mode, you must pick servo mode, that will track your daughter while she is moving.

M50 has 2 high speed modes:

a) the fastest, that takes 10 pictures per second;

b) the tracking priority mode, that takes 7 pictures per second; prefer this one, as your subject is moving. Out of focus pictures are beyond repair.

Imagine you are trying to take a picture of a baseball player trying to hit the ball. The player is in the same place. In this case, use the fastest mode.

Imagine yourself trying to take a picture of someone running and jumping into a pool.

If you are looking at your subject's side. Use the fastest mode, as is not moving a lot closer or away from your camera.

If you are in front of your subject, use the tracking prioriy mode.

2. Do I need more than 1/125 - 1/250th? When you see how dark they are you will understand.

I could usually get my older daughter on stage with 1/125-1/160th. Sometimes even with stage lights there was not enough light. So 160th would freeze 80% of the photos decently.

Your camera sensor is craving for light.

Looking at your pictures, I would get a 56mm f/1.4 or 85mm f/1.4 prime. When you get your seat, try which lens works better for your position.

Then you can crop later. f/1.4 is 2 stops of light faster than f/2.8. It means a photo taken at 1/250th with 6400 ISO can be taken at 1/500th with 3200 ISO when using a f/1.4 prime.

After you zoom (in or out), your camera has to focus again to a moving subject. So, using a zoom doubles the work of the Auto Focus.

Using a prime lens, there is not the issue of focusing after adjusting the zoom.

Your nifty fifty is not known to be sharp at f/1.8. It gets sharper at f/2.8 on.

And, my friend, if you are shooting action, your shutter speed has to go higher. Try 1/400th or 1/500th to get the jump. Maybe 1/800th or even 1/1000th. Your daughter pictures, when jumping, have motion blur. It means the shutter speed must go higher.

In the end, what do you prefer? To get the picture with grain or not get it at all?

Maybe you find it is acceptable to even shoot at ISO 12800 and later clean the picture with DxO. And get an impossible shot. Put it in black and white, leave some grain. It may look epic!

R2D2 wrote:

One thing that will help the autofocus is for your subjects to wear very bright and contrasty clothing. I’ll often AF on a person’s jersey when shooting sports.

This! Excellent point!

She is in a dark place, with dark clothes. Sometimes, all you can see is her head and her white skaters. Her body vanishes in the dark.

Bright clothes would help your camera AF a lot.

Advi wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

One thing that will help the autofocus is for your subjects to wear very bright and contrasty clothing. I’ll often AF on a person’s jersey when shooting sports.

This! Excellent point!

She is in a dark place, with dark clothes. Sometimes, all you can see is her head and her white skaters. Her body vanishes in the dark.

Bright clothes would help your camera AF a lot.

Thank you.  On competition day she will be in a a shiny dress.   The dark clothes was just practice.

Advi wrote:

Hi.

phazelag wrote:

I am asking two questions here:

1. Which AF mode with my M50 for low light skating rink photos of my daughter? Any technique input?

Between 1 photo setup and servo mode, you must pick servo mode, that will track your daughter while she is moving.

M50 has 2 high speed modes:

a) the fastest, that takes 10 pictures per second;

b) the tracking priority mode, that takes 7 pictures per second; prefer this one, as your subject is moving. Out of focus pictures are beyond repair.

Imagine you are trying to take a picture of a baseball player trying to hit the ball. The player is in the same place. In this case, use the fastest mode.

Imagine yourself trying to take a picture of someone running and jumping into a pool.

If you are looking at your subject's side. Use the fastest mode, as is not moving a lot closer or away from your camera.

If you are in front of your subject, use the tracking prioriy mode.

2. Do I need more than 1/125 - 1/250th? When you see how dark they are you will understand.

I could usually get my older daughter on stage with 1/125-1/160th. Sometimes even with stage lights there was not enough light. So 160th would freeze 80% of the photos decently.

Your camera sensor is craving for light.

Looking at your pictures, I would get a 56mm f/1.4 or 85mm f/1.4 prime. When you get your seat, try which lens works better for your position.

Then you can crop later. f/1.4 is 2 stops of light faster than f/2.8. It means a photo taken at 1/250th with 6400 ISO can be taken at 1/500th with 3200 ISO when using a f/1.4 prime.

After you zoom (in or out), your camera has to focus again to a moving subject. So, using a zoom doubles the work of the Auto Focus.

Using a prime lens, there is not the issue of focusing after adjusting the zoom.

Your nifty fifty is not known to be sharp at f/1.8. It gets sharper at f/2.8 on.

And, my friend, if you are shooting action, your shutter speed has to go higher. Try 1/400th or 1/500th to get the jump. Maybe 1/800th or even 1/1000th. Your daughter pictures, when jumping, have motion blur. It means the shutter speed must go higher.

In the end, what do you prefer? To get the picture with grain or not get it at all?

Maybe you find it is acceptable to even shoot at ISO 12800 and later clean the picture with DxO. And get an impossible shot. Put it in black and white, leave some grain. It may look epic!

Some how missed this    Thank you

R2D2 wrote:

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.

R2

This.

Adapting one of the Sigma f/1.4 Art lenses is probably the best you can do.

thunder storm wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.

R2

This.

Adapting one of the Sigma f/1.4 Art lenses is probably the best you can do.

Agreed!

phazelag wrote:

thunder storm wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.

R2

This.

Adapting one of the Sigma f/1.4 Art lenses is probably the best you can do.

Agreed!

Or a 50-100 f/.8 ??

sigma-global.com/en/lenses/a016_50_100_18/

KevinRA wrote:

phazelag wrote:

thunder storm wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.

R2

This.

Adapting one of the Sigma f/1.4 Art lenses is probably the best you can do.

Agreed!

Or a 50-100 f/.8 ??

sigma-global.com/en/lenses/a016_50_100_18/

I am considering that for sure.   I just got a 100mm f2 to try also   That sigma is cool.   It is just as heavy as the 70-200 f2.8 stabilized but it might be worth it.

thank you

Scott, I have a 70-200 2.8 L if you want to give it a try.

Randy

phazelag wrote:

KevinRA wrote:

phazelag wrote:

thunder storm wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.

R2

This.

Adapting one of the Sigma f/1.4 Art lenses is probably the best you can do.

Agreed!

Or a 50-100 f/.8 ??

sigma-global.com/en/lenses/a016_50_100_18/

I am considering that for sure. I just got a 100mm f2 to try also That sigma is cool. It is just as heavy as the 70-200 f2.8 stabilized but it might be worth it.

thank you

I've had the 50-100mm f/1.8  lens and the M50 too.  Works beautifully. 85mm f/1.4 gives more light though.

RLBur wrote:

Scott, I have a 70-200 2.8 L if you want to give it a try.

Randy

Thanks Randy,  I bought one, but returned it and got the Sigma 50-150mm f2.8 and I just ordered the Sigma 50-100 F1.8 ART.

thunder storm wrote:

phazelag wrote:

KevinRA wrote:

phazelag wrote:

thunder storm wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

This type of photography is about the most technically challenging as you can get.

R2

This.

Adapting one of the Sigma f/1.4 Art lenses is probably the best you can do.

Agreed!

Or a 50-100 f/.8 ??

sigma-global.com/en/lenses/a016_50_100_18/

I am considering that for sure. I just got a 100mm f2 to try also That sigma is cool. It is just as heavy as the 70-200 f2.8 stabilized but it might be worth it.

thank you

I've had the 50-100mm f/1.8 lens and the M50 too. Works beautifully. 85mm f/1.4 gives more light though.

Thank you.   I ordered the 50-100 f1.8.   I tried the 100 f2 today and liked the extra light and bokeh.   The 100 was limiting as she makes the circle and got closer.  And the day of the competition they will hav more light on.

Today I got there after practice and the fluorescent lights were off and it was even darker!

Comp day it will be brighter. I did use 6400, 8000, and 12800 today and even though it was noisy the higher shutter of 1/250th helped. On comp day or when there is more light I will use try 1/400 ish. I have found that in alot of dance I can clear sharp eyes even 1/160th, but I am taking your advice and will be bumping shutter and ISO up and using faster lenses.

Today in this darkness none of the AF modes worked well when she got closer to me at high speed. When she was 100ft from me, the AF was fast in all modes, but as she got closer to me the AF would not lock on sometimes until after she passed.
The M50 does have the High Speed (Speed Priority) and the Low Speed (tracking priority) so I used the low speed in servo mode. I found that center zone AF mode was the best for this.

The single point was OK, but easy to lose her, and tracking mode just couldn't track her at all. So Zone was the most reliable. But all work better with more light.   Today with any lens when she close to me the camera could not lock on in any mode until it was too late.

I appreciate your input and help. I was wondering if maybe a 7D Mark 2, 77D, or 80D,70D body would do better with regards to AF in low light? I know the M50 has more points, but I recall the 7D M2 being great at AF and there are like new used ones available pretty cheaply?

I may just more change to a full frame system, but I am not sure how long or often I will need a true light vacuum!

I will spend more time editing competition photos but these are what I tested today. It was basically black like a dance floor in there.

This lens is ideal in focus length and lets in more light that the 50-150 f2.8.    I also took the advice here and bumped ISO and Shutter speed up.    There was a bit more light on today, but only a bit.   Still much darker than it looks.  I still didn't shoot in RAW, I got out of that habit, but will try that next.   These are canon JPEGS with Lightroom Noise Reduction and sharpening.   I generally only shoot raw for serious stuff or landscape stuff.   Mainly because for outdoor sports light is usually good and the in camera JPEGs sometimes look better to me than Raw in LR.

But I deeply appreciate all the help in here.   I am ready for the contest on Sept 18th now.

This was the high quality setting for JPEGs.   I will try raw soon.

Nice!!!  The 50-100mm f/1.8  makes the most of a crop camera!

phazelag wrote:

This was the high quality setting for JPEGs. I will try raw soon.

Hey, you're getting there!

M6ii would be the next step up as far as autofocus goes.

DxO would be the next step up as far as noise reduction goes.

1/800 sec would be the next step up as far as shutter speed goes.

Keep in mind that you need VERY SHARP images when shooting at high ISOs, otherwise the noise reduction will destroy all detail (including the important stuff).

Keep us posted!

R2

ps. I'd skip the DSLRs and go straight to the R7. I owned a 7D2 and even the M6ii's AF was improved over that body.