Batteries swelling!

jxh wrote:

Impulses wrote:

I'd always buy a discrete charger for and camera battery, regardless of whether it's the OEM / AC one or a 3rd party USB charger, the current trend of not bundling one when the camera can change in-body is a bit annoying but not the end of the world. I do wonder if it won't cost manufacturers more in the long run tho. I can see bundling phone chargers being wasteful these days (everyone's got loads, and they're cheap), but most people aren't churning thru cameras every 1-2 years.

And yet the instructions on many cameras say 'do not use phone charger'. Kind of strange because most everything else (flashlights etc) don't seem to have this restriction.
Many phone chargers are capable of high speed charging which is controlled by the device being charged, and I wonder if camera makers are behind the times with this.

Nah, they're just putting that in the manual for CYA purposes... They are a bit behind the times when it comes to in camera charging implemention, depending on which one you look at... Oly, Fuji, Sony (more recently), Canon and others have adopted USB-C Power Delivery (PD) which IMO is the most forward looking and flexible stance they could / should take.

Ironically that probably requires more CYA and manual fine print because despite how ubiquitous USB PD has become, it can still sometimes be tricky to match the right charger to specific needs (like actually powering the camera while in use). DPR themselves have even complained about "finicky" cameras that require PD. I'm not quite sure if Pana has used PD on their L mount bodies or the GH6...

Ironically micro USB charging (10-12W) or USB-C without PD (15W tops) is probably less of a hassle to those not well versed in all this, my slightly older Sony body will run off USB power (either micro or USB-C since it has both) but slowly deplete the battery since it lacks PD (which can scale as high as 100W but most bodies probably don't need more than 27-45W). It can also change via USB while powered off.

I think that's a pretty flexible implemention and the bare minimum they should be doing, specially if they're gonna skimp and not include a charger in the box.

My E-M5 III can at least charge while powered off via micro USB, but that's it. I'd still buy a 3rs party USB charger for any camera I own, they're very handy and almost as good as having in-camera charging really... Since you can then pop the battery out and charge it off most smartphone chargers in cars or even a USB power bank.

Promeneur wrote:

I have only one experience with a battery swelling and that is from a camera I purchased in 2015, so the battery cannot be older than that. Fortunately, it was not in the camera at the time. When I went to B&H the salesperson showed me a trick to tell if a battery is beginning to swell, but not yet visable to the eye and maybe not swollen enough to realize that it's nearing the end of its useful life when you put it in the camera. Simply lay it on a flat surface/table and if it spins like a top it is starting to swell. Good way to know when you find an old camera battery laying in a drawer. Nobody mentioned this trick so I figure everyone already knows this, but just in case.

That's an excellent idea, thanks. I've been measuring my third-party batteries' thickness when new with calipers and writing it on the battery, but your salesperson's method is easier.

Adrian Harris wrote:

I report this as it may be of interest to some:

I have all my m43 cameras since 2009 and up until now have never had any problems with aftermarket batteries for these.cameras: G1, GX7, Gx8, Em1-Mk2. (And a Sony rx100 MK1)

They have always held charge and provided as much power as original batteries, however recently I have noticed something strange...

After getting the Em1-Mk2 except for gx8 I rarely used the others and after a few years their batteries went flat.

After recharging them about a year ago I noticed the aftermarket rx100 battery had swollen a lot and would no longer fit (it was at least 9 yes old). The genuine Panasonic hasn't swollen - yet.

A year later one of the aftermarket GX7 batteries is refusing to charge, but at £7 for 8 years use that's okay.

And last night I went to pop a 4 year old aftermarket battery which I had let go completely flat into the gx8 and noticed the fit was now a bit snugger than it used to be, but has charged fully, so I am wondering whether to bin that one also, even though it still works!

I haven't checked all my em1-mk2 batteries yet, but boy have they had a hammering over the last 5 years!

No genuine batteries have swollen yet!

When I got my E-M10 MkII, it came with an assortment of extra batteries - OEM, Watson and Wasabi. Examples of each of the aftermarket have become swollen and only one OEM has gotten very slightly (hardly noticeable) fatter. Only one of the non-OEM has grown enough to be difficult to get back out after being discharged.

Note. In use I don't favour any battery when I go shooting, I just grab any out of the drawer.

I try to follow a fairly logical "first in, first out" rotation with three batteries for the active body. However, with the number of extras I've accumulated there are several that don't get used in current rotation. I try to swap out a couple each year from the active three. All this is without any preference for either OEM or aftermarket.

I draw the conclusion that aftermarket batteries are really good, as long as you don't leave them flat for very long periods of time, in fact maybe I shouldn't ever leave any li-on go flat?

What are other people's findings and routine?

I've come to believe that no battery technology should be left in storage in a state of discharge.

My first m43 (in 2013) was a PL1. Its OEM battery swelled.

For my M-10 II (bought in 2016) I am using one OEM and two non-OEM. Never had an issue with swelling. All three seemed to have a shorter discharge cycle -- after 5 years. I suspect it was the charger.

I got two more non-OEM batteries with the included charger. No problems so far. But I will keep an eye on it.

While I have had a few after market batteries go bad (swelling), I have had 2 original Panasonic batteries go bad.

The first was a GX85 battery, it swole up and would not fit in the camera.

The second was a GH4 battery that just refused to charge.

Hi Adrian,

I used to have  a mix of OEM and non-OEM batteries for my Olympus and Canon DSLRs and have never had a battery that swelled, but most of the non-OEM batteries have expired - suddenly won’t take a charge or are not recognised by the camera.

Some of my oldest Olympus OEM BLM-1 batteries have expired gracefully with gradual loss of capacity.

One Olympus BLH-1, no more than four years old, died suddenly - won’t charge at all.

I no longer buy non-OEM batteries

peter

victorav wrote:

PhotoMac503 wrote:

brentbrent wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

And last night I went to pop a 4 year old aftermarket battery which I had let go completely flat into the gx8 and noticed the fit was now a bit snugger than it used to be, but has charged fully, so I am wondering whether to bin that one also, even though it still works!

Aftermarket batteries are so cheap, and you got four years of use out of this one, so absolutely DO recycle (not trash) this one now. I would never continue to use a battery that has started to swell.

Yes, aftermarket batteries are cheap but this thread illustrates the risk you take.

Also, if they are not reliable for as long as OEM you may wind up buying more figuring "they're cheap."

However, you end up carrying more weight and have more to change/manage. Don't you use m43 to save weight?

If a NonOEM battery ruins your camera you're going to get finger pointing. If a Panasonic battery ruins your Panasonic camera, you know who to contact.

Batteries also take a tremendous toll on the environment, both their manufacturing and disposal.

Mining operations yes, do damage the environment. However, large recycling plants are being built and its a growing industry so recovery and disposal is not as bad as it was anymore.

So the fewer you buy and the longer they last the less damage will come to the environment. And if you're a nature/wildlife/landscape photographer, you should care about the environment.

I buy OEM exclusively, and carry a minimum. I don't need to carry a lot because I trust OEM reliability. I also set up my camera to minimize power consumption. And I don't turn on my camera at all until I have finished previsualization. That also means I have less shots to delete. No spray and pray here!

I also letter each battery (A, B,) and use them in sequence so they are all used a similar amount. So A is never used twice while B goes unused. i do this with a felt pen as soon as I open the box.

Glad to hear the disposal end may not as bad as it used to be. But it's still not healthy for the planet.

Buying less is always a good strategy, and OEM allows one to do that.

Consumers rarely think what they will do when the product no longer meets their needs/wants, and Americans have a horrendous reputation for consumption.

Tony Rogers wrote:

If the cells are unbalanced in that they have slightly different voltages, more problems occur during charging. If there are two cells in series in a 7.2V pack and one cell starts at say 3.2V and the other 3.4V, the higher voltage cell will become fully charged before the low voltage cell. Let's say they get to 3.4V and 3.6V respectively. The pack voltage is only 7.0V so the charger may keep right on going leading to the higher voltage cell being over-charged. It is a very dangerous thing to overcharge lithium based cells!

So, how do you test the voltage of the two cells in a battery to see if there is the inbalance you speak of?

PhotoMac503 wrote:

brentbrent wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

And last night I went to pop a 4 year old aftermarket battery which I had let go completely flat into the gx8 and noticed the fit was now a bit snugger than it used to be, but has charged fully, so I am wondering whether to bin that one also, even though it still works!

Aftermarket batteries are so cheap, and you got four years of use out of this one, so absolutely DO recycle (not trash) this one now. I would never continue to use a battery that has started to swell.

Yes, aftermarket batteries are cheap but this thread illustrates the risk you take.

Also, if they are not reliable for as long as OEM you may wind up buying more figuring "they're cheap.""

For the record, I've had OEM batteries swell over the years. Perhaps not as often as non-OEM batteries, but at times they do swell up and have to be replaced.

I don't remember precisely which batteries have swelled up over the years, but I think several of the BLM-1 batteries I had for my E-1, E-3, E-510 have had to be replaced. Over the years, as the batteries have gotten older, I have specifically been replacing the black BLM-1 batteries with the white BLM-5 batteries (both OEM and clone) just because they are newer.

I'm pretty sure at least one of the OEM BLN-1 batteries I bought had to be replaced. I know I've had at least 4 BLN-1 batteries (one each that came with the E-m1 mark I and E-m5 mark I cameras, plus two I bought used. When I checked a few days ago, I only had 3 OEM batteries. I don't recall if I bought any additional OEM BLN-1 batteries.

With the BLS batteries, I have weeded out the BLS-1 batteries. I don't recall whether the batteries had officially swelled or not. But I know I am missing some OEM BLS-5 and BLS-50 batteries, so a few of those have probably swelled up.

My E-m1 mark II is fairly new to me as I bought it when it appeared to be going through close out sales before the OM-1 was announced. With the E-m1 mark II, I haven't used it as much, so I still have the 2 OEM BLH-1 batteries as well as the 2 Kastar batteries I bought as backup.

I honestly don't remember how many of the batteries I've bought for the other cameras (TG-2, TG-5, G85, LX10, FZ300), and how many of those were OEM batteries.

And then we get to the BLX-1. I recently had one of my 2 BLX-1 batteries stop working. This is the first OEM battery that I've bought that stopped working within 2 months of purchase. I called OM support, and they said they would replace it, but it likely would take 2 months to get here (that was a month ago, so I probably won't be seeing it for another month).

Then there is the mythical 'free' battery that I was promised if I pre-ordered the OM-1 camera. I did the pre-order in February, the camera came in June, and I'm still waiting for the mythical free battery.

It is still nearly impossible to buy additional OEM BLX-1 batteries. So I can't necessarily rely on only using OEM BLX-1 batteries if I can't get them.

So at the moment, I am a bit grouchy in terms of OEM OM batteries and their support.

The other downside of only using OEM batteries is what happens then the manufacturer stops making the batteries because newer cameras now use different batteries? For example, the BLM-1/5 batteries for the DSLRs haven't been made in years. I speculate that it is possible the BLN-1 battery production may have been halted in 2019, and sooner or later OM will run out of stock. Whther the BLH-1 batteries are still being made, I dunno, but I would suspect within a year or two, they will stop production also.

Adrian Harris wrote:

I report this as it may be of interest to some:

I have all my m43 cameras since 2009 and up until now have never had any problems with aftermarket batteries for these.cameras: G1, GX7, Gx8, Em1-Mk2. (And a Sony rx100 MK1)

They have always held charge and provided as much power as original batteries, however recently I have noticed something strange...

After getting the Em1-Mk2 except for gx8 I rarely used the others and after a few years their batteries went flat.

After recharging them about a year ago I noticed the aftermarket rx100 battery had swollen a lot and would no longer fit (it was at least 9 yes old). The genuine Panasonic hasn't swollen - yet.

A year later one of the aftermarket GX7 batteries is refusing to charge, but at £7 for 8 years use that's okay.

And last night I went to pop a 4 year old aftermarket battery which I had let go completely flat into the gx8 and noticed the fit was now a bit snugger than it used to be, but has charged fully, so I am wondering whether to bin that one also, even though it still works!

I haven't checked all my em1-mk2 batteries yet, but boy have they had a hammering over the last 5 years!

No genuine batteries have swollen yet!

Note. In use I don't favour any battery when I go shooting, I just grab any out of the drawer.

I draw the conclusion that aftermarket batteries are really good, as long as you don't leave them flat for very long periods of time, in fact maybe I shouldn't ever leave any li-on go flat?

What are other people's findings and routine?

Adrian -

Thanks for posting this. The trend now is for battery charging to take place in the camera compartment with a USB charging cable. This is very cost effective for the manufactures because short USB cables are a lot cheaper to make than a plug in the wall charger. THIS CAN BE BAD FOR YOUR CAMERA ... IF THE BATTERY SWELLS WHILE IT IS CHARGING IN THE CAMERA'S COMPARTMENT, IT COULD DAMAGE THE CAMERA.

I think the above swelling problem is unlikely to happen if you are using the manufacturer's brand of battery, but it still may be possible???

Typically, I pay the extra money for the manufacture's batteries and charging station. For my brand new OM-1 camera, I just bought am OM System SBCX-1 Battery with Charger for over $200 USD from Amazon. (Not cheap and definately overpriced.) I had to wait over a month to get an OM-1 camera and I consider myself lucky to get the extra battery with charger given all of the supply chain shortages we are experiencing with electronics.

Saving money is a worthwhile endeavor as long as it doesn't end up costing one more money (and problems) in the future.

The bottom line: you get what you pay for. I've spent thousands of dollars on my cameras, lens, & accessories. Comparatively speaking, manufacturer's brand batteries are a relatively minor digital camera expense. Do you remember the days that you spent money on film, processing, and prints? Think how much you are saving over the old film days with digital. Maybe that will make you feel better if you pay a little more for a manufacture's battery???

- Simon

MNE wrote:

Tony Rogers wrote:

If the cells are unbalanced in that they have slightly different voltages, more problems occur during charging. If there are two cells in series in a 7.2V pack and one cell starts at say 3.2V and the other 3.4V, the higher voltage cell will become fully charged before the low voltage cell. Let's say they get to 3.4V and 3.6V respectively. The pack voltage is only 7.0V so the charger may keep right on going leading to the higher voltage cell being over-charged. It is a very dangerous thing to overcharge lithium based cells!

So, how do you test the voltage of the two cells in a battery to see if there is the inbalance you speak of?

A battery pack that has balancing capability will have more than two connections; +ve and -ve. With a pack of two cells in series, like many camera batteries, there would be a minimum of three connection; one at the battery positive, one connected between the two cells and one at the battery negative. Measuring the voltage acroos the first and second connections gives the volarage of the first cell and across the second and third, the second.

In some applications (such as RC models) battery packs might have normal +ve and -ve connections as well as the balancing wires described above. So five connections for the two cell pack described above.

Most camera batteries have more than two connections but it might be unwise to jump to the conclusion that these are used for cell monitoring or balancing. They might be used for temperature monitoring for example. And, even if the connections are to allow each cell voltrage to be measured, the charger still might not use them for balancing. They might just report an error if the cells are too far out of balance.

One word of warning. If you try to measure the volatges across the terminals of your battery packs, be very careful! If you accidentally touch the two probes together you will short out one or more of the cells. This may well cause permanent damage to the pack in a fraction of a second. The packs can be very powerful and it is even possible for the two probes to become welded together! More normally, you just get a flash and a crackle (don't ask me how I know!).

Ideally, to measure the voltage of each cell, you use a matching connector that plugs into the battery safely with no chance of a short.