Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

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JoeOptics314 Regular Member • Posts: 135
Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
1

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM).  My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising.  But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

Here are some samples, displayed in ON1 Photoraw.  These are unprocessed raws taken 2 to 5 seconds apart with identical, F/number, shutter speed, ISO.

I am wondering if there is some parameter in the K3 iii menus that might be causing this issue?  I am shooting hand held, but with motion compensation on at what I think are reasonable shutter speeds (1/125 to 1/800 sec).

AF Mode = S

AF Active Area = S

AF Area Restriction = On

Release Priority  (Hmmm.  Should I be using Focus Priority?)

The fact that I see this focus change problem with 2 different lenses, must me the issue is the camera?  Have others seen this problem?  I am hoping there is a different setting that fixes the issue.

70-210mm at 210mm  F/5

150-450 at 200mm F/6.3

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David Lees

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OP JoeOptics314 Regular Member • Posts: 135
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

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Please ignore my confusing sentence above in bold face.  What I was trying to say is that I expect the 70-210 mm to be better than the 55-300 mm.  But this is a side issue.  My question is about focus oscillation or drift causing focus to be incorrect sometimes.  Not horrible, but significant enough to degrade a good lens to look worse than a lens with worse image quality.

--
David Lees

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JeremieB Senior Member • Posts: 1,854
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
2

JoeOptics314 wrote:

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

Here are some samples, displayed in ON1 Photoraw. These are unprocessed raws taken 2 to 5 seconds apart with identical, F/number, shutter speed, ISO.

I am wondering if there is some parameter in the K3 iii menus that might be causing this issue? I am shooting hand held, but with motion compensation on at what I think are reasonable shutter speeds (1/125 to 1/800 sec).

AF Mode = S

AF Active Area = S

AF Area Restriction = On

Release Priority (Hmmm. Should I be using Focus Priority?)

The fact that I see this focus change problem with 2 different lenses, must me the issue is the camera? Have others seen this problem? I am hoping there is a different setting that fixes the issue.

70-210mm at 210mm F/5

150-450 at 200mm F/6.3

Personally:

- I wouldn't shoot handheld, or it's difficult to conclude anything. I would use a tripod

- I would use Focus priority and see if it's better

- in fact I would use live view and tripod for fine manual focusing

But I don't really know if you're testing the AF of your lens, or its sharpness ? If you test sharpness, then don't test AF at the same time

To me it looks like some of your shots are just out of focus.

Also at shutter speeds like 1/125 or lower, there could be some shutter shock maybe - you may try with electronic shutter then.

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Paul_R_H Senior Member • Posts: 1,153
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
1

This is fascinating. I have found the same, but only at focal lengths LESS THAN about 25mm.

Given the deep DoF at those focal lengths (even at F4), it represents quite a movement of the focus motor.

I had it with the DA15 Limited, and the DA16-85 at its wide end. I wondered if it was errant dust on the focus sensor but couldn't blow it off.

I shoot with back-button focus C-AF, but went through S-AF, shutter-button focus C-AF and S-AF, and changed all the parameters of focus hold, used all the focus points, and it (mis)-behaves consistently.

SRS Microsystems took the body back for repairs under warranty and they sent it to the UK repairers. Some weeks later they returned it to me saying they could find nothing wrong.

I made a video with my phone pointing at the DA15 as I held the C-AF button, the lens aimed at a fixed target about 2m away. The lens can be seen shifting focus every few seconds, oscillating between one position (correct) and another (too close). It does the same for distant targets.

So SRS negotiated from the UK repairers to give me a new body. Fantastic service, all credit to SRS.

And… The new one does it too, it but only slightly. When focussing on static subjects at very wide angles and wide open aperture I focus in live view and then switch back to the viewfinder to compose.

I can now live with it. If it was doing it at long focal lengths I'd be really upset. For fast-action work with the 55-300PLM it is amazingly good. It can track cars coming towards you at high speed as they half-fill the frame.

Paul

JoeOptics314 wrote:

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

asahi man Senior Member • Posts: 1,056
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

This is not a K-3 lll problem, it's made by the Pentax Tamron lens.

You will find the same issue with other brands and the comparable Tamron lens.

Best regards

Kerusker
Kerusker Senior Member • Posts: 1,405
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

asahi man wrote:

This is not a K-3 lll problem, it's made by the Pentax Tamron lens.

You will find the same issue with other brands and the comparable Tamron lens.

Best regards

Could you please explain the issue you mention to me - never heard of it. How does Tamron produce this effect?

Thanks

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,826
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

Have you tried spot focus (center point only) in AF-S and AF-C?

Especially when shooting non moving subjects it can be safer to use AF-S and single point AF, The predicting part of the AF-C servo may sometimes get confused when it try to track something that is not moving.

But this sounds more like a bug in the AF-C servo or lens firmware if it is repeatable this way.

Have you updated the camera to latest firmware? There have been firmware updates  for AF improvements on K3 III.

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OP JoeOptics314 Regular Member • Posts: 135
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

Fogel70 wrote:

Have you tried spot focus (center point only) in AF-S and AF-C?

Especially when shooting non moving subjects it can be safer to use AF-S and single point AF, The predicting part of the AF-C servo may sometimes get confused when it try to track something that is not moving.

But this sounds more like a bug in the AF-C servo or lens firmware if it is repeatable this way.

Have you updated the camera to latest firmware? There have been firmware updates for AF improvements on K3 III.

I always update to the latest K3 iii firmware and have been using Rev 1.50 since a day or two after its release.

I have been shooting AF-S except for occasional experiments with AF-C.  I shoot either "spot" or "Select" with the little 5 point square inside the circle at the center of focus in the viewfinder.

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David Lees

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OP JoeOptics314 Regular Member • Posts: 135
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
1

asahi man wrote:

This is not a K-3 lll problem, it's made by the Pentax Tamron lens.

You will find the same issue with other brands and the comparable Tamron lens.

Best regards

I am pretty sure it is a K3 iii issue, because the 2 screenshots I posted with the focus issue are from two different lenses.  one is the 70-210 mm, but the second is for my 150-450mm set at 200 mm.

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David Lees

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OP JoeOptics314 Regular Member • Posts: 135
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

JeremieB wrote:

JoeOptics314 wrote:

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

Here are some samples, displayed in ON1 Photoraw. These are unprocessed raws taken 2 to 5 seconds apart with identical, F/number, shutter speed, ISO.

I am wondering if there is some parameter in the K3 iii menus that might be causing this issue? I am shooting hand held, but with motion compensation on at what I think are reasonable shutter speeds (1/125 to 1/800 sec).

AF Mode = S

AF Active Area = S

AF Area Restriction = On

Release Priority (Hmmm. Should I be using Focus Priority?)

The fact that I see this focus change problem with 2 different lenses, must me the issue is the camera? Have others seen this problem? I am hoping there is a different setting that fixes the issue.

70-210mm at 210mm F/5

150-450 at 200mm F/6.3

Personally:

- I wouldn't shoot handheld, or it's difficult to conclude anything. I would use a tripod

- I would use Focus priority and see if it's better

- in fact I would use live view and tripod for fine manual focusing

But I don't really know if you're testing the AF of your lens, or its sharpness ? If you test sharpness, then don't test AF at the same time

To me it looks like some of your shots are just out of focus.

Also at shutter speeds like 1/125 or lower, there could be some shutter shock maybe - you may try with electronic shutter then.

I was thinking the motion compensation being on would take care of the motion on the longer exposures.  But I am seeing the issue at speeds like 1/200 second.  The images definitely look out of focus sometimes and that is exactly what I am puzzled over.  Why sometimes it is sharp as a tack, perfect focus and sometimes it is not when doing repeated shots.  I just had the problem occur on a tripod.  I can not see it out of focus through the viewfinder.  Only when I got back and view the recorded images on the camera.

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David Lees

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Ergo607
Ergo607 Senior Member • Posts: 1,481
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
2

JoeOptics314 wrote:

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

Here are some samples, displayed in ON1 Photoraw. These are unprocessed raws taken 2 to 5 seconds apart with identical, F/number, shutter speed, ISO.

I am wondering if there is some parameter in the K3 iii menus that might be causing this issue? I am shooting hand held, but with motion compensation on at what I think are reasonable shutter speeds (1/125 to 1/800 sec).

AF Mode = S

AF Active Area = S

AF Area Restriction = On

Release Priority (Hmmm. Should I be using Focus Priority?)

The fact that I see this focus change problem with 2 different lenses, must me the issue is the camera? Have others seen this problem? I am hoping there is a different setting that fixes the issue.

70-210mm at 210mm F/5

150-450 at 200mm F/6.3

Why for the love of God are you posting photo's presented at 200% (or more?) magnification? That way it is impossible to draw any conclusions. It could be misfocussing, camera shake, shutter shock, or something else that I am not thinking about. Or it could be a combination of all those together.

FWIW, while there is a difference, IMHO it will be negligible in real world practice...

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Cheers,
Marc

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JeremieB Senior Member • Posts: 1,854
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

JoeOptics314 wrote:

JeremieB wrote:

JoeOptics314 wrote:

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

Here are some samples, displayed in ON1 Photoraw. These are unprocessed raws taken 2 to 5 seconds apart with identical, F/number, shutter speed, ISO.

I am wondering if there is some parameter in the K3 iii menus that might be causing this issue? I am shooting hand held, but with motion compensation on at what I think are reasonable shutter speeds (1/125 to 1/800 sec).

AF Mode = S

AF Active Area = S

AF Area Restriction = On

Release Priority (Hmmm. Should I be using Focus Priority?)

The fact that I see this focus change problem with 2 different lenses, must me the issue is the camera? Have others seen this problem? I am hoping there is a different setting that fixes the issue.

70-210mm at 210mm F/5

150-450 at 200mm F/6.3

Personally:

- I wouldn't shoot handheld, or it's difficult to conclude anything. I would use a tripod

- I would use Focus priority and see if it's better

- in fact I would use live view and tripod for fine manual focusing

But I don't really know if you're testing the AF of your lens, or its sharpness ? If you test sharpness, then don't test AF at the same time

To me it looks like some of your shots are just out of focus.

Also at shutter speeds like 1/125 or lower, there could be some shutter shock maybe - you may try with electronic shutter then.

I was thinking the motion compensation being on would take care of the motion on the longer exposures.

It's not easy to see on your screenshots, but it doesn't look like motion blur.

The shake reduction system compensates up to some point. At long telephoto focal lengths, it's less efficient too.

But I am seeing the issue at speeds like 1/200 second. The images definitely look out of focus sometimes and that is exactly what I am puzzled over. Why sometimes it is sharp as a tack, perfect focus and sometimes it is not when doing repeated shots. I just had the problem occur on a tripod. I can not see it out of focus through the viewfinder. Only when I got back and view the recorded images on the camera.

On your screenshots it's zoomed a lot, so maybe it's normal that you don't see the blur through the viewfinder (maybe not).

That's weird. Phase detection can be imprecise but you seem to have good conditions to avoid that in your shots.

Maybe you could try excellent advice from MightyMike:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65221373

It saved my day at the time, maybe it's worth a try.

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alex_virt Senior Member • Posts: 2,937
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

My KP behaved like this with certain lenses, in my case primes with screwdriver AF. After warranty repair, the problem was somewhat mitigated but I think it didn't go away completely. I now use my KP mainly with zooms and manual lenses. Sad to see the overpriced flagship camera suffering from the same problem.

candgpics Regular Member • Posts: 203
Re: Happened with new 16-50 PLM and K3iii
1

I have the K3iii (updated to the latest firmware) and purchased the new 16-50 PLM and I had similar trouble with focus consistency.

I initially thought the problem was due to shooting at wide apertures, but I took numerous pictures under normal, along with fairly controlled, circumstances. I used both AF S and AF C and in different configurations (spot, as well as various area sizes). I also carefully used the autofocus calibration (indoors) and +2 generally worked well for pictures (well, indoors) when focus properly worked.  I also used back button focus and shot in single shot and also high and medium speeds.

Unfortunately, focus often would be off by several inches to several feet. I found I was missing focus about 50% of the time. Focus indoors was more consistent. Overall, though, the lens was not workable. And, I took pictures with movement and with the subject standing still.

Optically the 16-50 PLM was excellent and appeared to be well-centered (and was sharper than my D FA 24-70), but focusing simply was not reliable.

I do not have this problem with my other lenses. I also own a K5ii, K3, K1 and K1ii and usually shoot mixed martial arts and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu events. I also shoot in manual mode, RAW. So, I am pretty well versed in using my cameras in low light and at wide apertures.

I ended up returning the 16-50 PLM. Perhaps I will give another copy a try, but I think I will hold off for now.

I actually purchased the K3iii shortly after it was released last year and had focusing and file corruption issues (I had read posts by others who had similar problems). I returned the K3iii and hoped that future firmware updates would solve the issues. I took a chance and re-purchased the K3iii a few months ago and all is well. I really enjoy using the camera, especially at competitions and tournaments and was hopeful I could use the 16-50 PLM. Oh well. Perhaps next time.

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Kerusker
Kerusker Senior Member • Posts: 1,405
AF oscillation cause by Tamron? ???

Kerusker wrote:

asahi man wrote:

This is not a K-3 lll problem, it's made by the Pentax Tamron lens.

You will find the same issue with other brands and the comparable Tamron lens.

Best regards

Could you please explain the issue you mention to me - never heard of it. How does Tamron produce this effect?

Thanks

Any hint where I can find what asahi man is talking about?

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][.Kerusker
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Katzen Muscony Forum Member • Posts: 90
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
1

JoeOptics314 wrote:

I just received a Pentax 70-210 mm zoom and am comparing it against two other lenses that cover that zoom range (150-450mm and 55-300mm PLM). My initial shots comparing against the 55-300 mm showed it better in terms of blur, which would be quite surprising. But when I started taking pairs of shots a few seconds apart and compared the pairs taken with identical manual settings I see what appears sharpness differences.

Here are some samples, displayed in ON1 Photoraw. These are unprocessed raws taken 2 to 5 seconds apart with identical, F/number, shutter speed, ISO.

I am wondering if there is some parameter in the K3 iii menus that might be causing this issue? I am shooting hand held, but with motion compensation on at what I think are reasonable shutter speeds (1/125 to 1/800 sec).

AF Mode = S

AF Active Area = S

AF Area Restriction = On

Release Priority (Hmmm. Should I be using Focus Priority?)

The fact that I see this focus change problem with 2 different lenses, must me the issue is the camera? Have others seen this problem? I am hoping there is a different setting that fixes the issue.

70-210mm at 210mm F/5

150-450 at 200mm F/6.3

Why are you wasting your time on nonsense?  Go out and do some photography!

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Polacofede Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

Are you shooting in single shot mode? Have you set up the camera in order to use the back button to focus and the release to just take the shot or when pressing the release button is also focusing?

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OP JoeOptics314 Regular Member • Posts: 135
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

Polacofede wrote:

Are you shooting in single shot mode? Have you set up the camera in order to use the back button to focus and the release to just take the shot or when pressing the release button is also focusing?

I am shooting single shot mode.  I push the button half way down, listen for the high pitched tone and red lines for a second in the viewfinder telling me I am in focus and then push the rest of the way down to take the picture.  When I do that repeatedly , waiting before each shot for the audio and visual focus cues, I see significant variation in how sharp the focus is.  Even on a tripod viewing a fixed target.  The amount of defocus across 3 to 5 shots seems larger with the 70-210 mm lens than with my 55-300 mm PLM

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David Lees

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Polacofede Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?
1

JoeOptics314 wrote:

Polacofede wrote:

Are you shooting in single shot mode? Have you set up the camera in order to use the back button to focus and the release to just take the shot or when pressing the release button is also focusing?

I am shooting single shot mode. I push the button half way down, listen for the high pitched tone and red lines for a second in the viewfinder telling me I am in focus and then push the rest of the way down to take the picture. When I do that repeatedly , waiting before each shot for the audio and visual focus cues, I see significant variation in how sharp the focus is. Even on a tripod viewing a fixed target. The amount of defocus across 3 to 5 shots seems larger with the 70-210 mm lens than with my 55-300 mm PLM

So you are re focusing on each shot. Can You try to configure the camera to focusing using back button and just use the trigger to do the shot? Then, you avoid re focusing on each shot?

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John Cal
John Cal Regular Member • Posts: 455
Re: Focus Oscillation in K3 iii?

Interesting it looks like a definite mis focus but how to determine the cause is tricky.

1/ Try higher shutter speeds with Shake Reduction off, with a tripod to take your technique out of the equation

2/ Try Center point only focus only.

3/ Try live view focus to see if you still get the same miss focus issues.

4/ Try electronic shutter vs mechanical shutter.

This my only bug bear with DSLR cameras vs MILCs. The ability to review instantaneously  though the view finder to see how well the focus nailed the shot is for me the only irritating problem when using any DSLR. I'm pretty sure Pentax has a patent on a design to give 'playback only' through the optical view finder via an auxiliary EVF within the pentaprism system. The lack of instant playback though the viewfinder is my only issue with DSLRs over MILCs. I wish Pentax would implement such a design its the only nit pick I have with DSLR cameras 📷   I hope you manage to work out the issue. I find all cameras will have mis focusing issues regardless of brand or system types.

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