MAC
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Re: Canon M6 II with kits lens or Body only + buy a lens?
nnowak wrote:
MAC wrote:
nnowak wrote:
MAC wrote:
nnowak wrote:
thunder storm wrote:
nnowak wrote:
thunder storm wrote:
nnowak wrote:
R2D2 wrote:
borris14 wrote:
I'm looking to upgrade from a Canon G7X II which was my first camera that got me into photography.
I want something to step up to and the M6 II seems to tick a lot of the boxes - I know it is three years old but still looks a good camera and something newer like the R7 is a little too big of a leap for me price wise.
My main question is whether people think the M6II kit with the 15-45 lens and EVF for around £1050 is a good deal and an acceptable lens for that package? Or whether the 15-45mm lens should be skipped, and I should go for body only and buy a lens separately? That would mean not having the EVF too though. My main uses are family and travel photography.
What do people think?
I'll go against the grain a bit. (If you get a good copy of the 15-45) it'll give you a 24-70mm equiv lens, which with the M6ii's higher MP and much better image quality (over the G7X ii), with some cropping you'll easily get out to the G7X ii's 100mm equiv zoom. So no loss there. The 15-45 is so nice and light too.
Cropping to get a 100mm equivalent view drops the M6 II all of the way down to 16.7 megapixels on a sensor area smaller than micro 4/3.
The G7X II has a much brighter f/1.8-2.8 lens than the EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3. In full frame equivalence, the G7X II is a 24-100mm f/5.0-8.0. The EF-M 15-45mm has a full frame equivalence of 24-70mm f/5.6-10. Cropping to a 100mm equivalent puts you at f/14 equivalent.
Yes, the M6 II sensor is much better than the G7X II sensor, but the slow apertures of the 15-45mm neuters much of that advantage.
DR of the M6ii will still crush the G7Xii...
Actually, no, it won't. Equivalence impacts dynamic range too. At base ISO, the M6 II has one extra stop of dynamic range compared to the G7X II. However, the G7X II lens is at least two stop brighter at all focal lengths than the EF-M 15-45mm. If you are limited in you shutter speeds, and need to be at ISO 6400 with the M6 II, the G7X II will only be at ISO 1600 and will have half a stop more dynamic range.
M6 II vs. G7X II
If you are primarily capturing landscapes at base ISO, the M6 II clearly wins for dynamic range and resolution. If you are capturing general family snapshots in variable light
This includes harsh day light. Dynamic range isn't usefull only in low light situations, it's rather the opposite. In my experience good dynamic range helps a lot for family snap shots.
Let me rephrase, since you seem to have missed the point. If you have enough light to be shooting at base ISO, the M6 II will have a clear dynamic range advantage.
Storm is talking in bright sun.
where DR matters most - base iso
1.1 PDR better on the m6II - significant
Isn't that what I just wrote above?
making a comparison using a PDR chart where the M6II is better than the G7XII from iso 100 -300 (by a PDR of 1.1 better at base iso) and then only worse by 0.3-0.5 PDR from ISO 300 - ISO 6400 using your 2 stop argument under less optimal conditions - well imo it only matters and is visible at base iso where the m6II has a 1.1 PDR advantage
The 0.3-0.5 PDR advantage of the G7XII would be hardly visible - unless of course you could show us - which you can't
so therefore, even starting this discussion was ludicrous and theoretical with no real world demo
If the light levels drop to the point where you need to raise the ISO to maintain shutter speeds, the brighter lens of the G7X II will allow for lower ISO's with better dynamic range.
0.5 PDR difference at higher iso's - care to show us the real life comparison so we know what 0.5 PDR means at higher iso's?
dynamic range is one thing but those noise characteristics on the 1 inch sensor combined with those digicam lenses - well not good
It is no worse than the 15-45mm. I wouldn't want to use a 1" sensor at ISO 6400, but the much brighter lens means the G7X II will only be at ISO 1600 when the M6 II is at 6400.
this one kit lens is an issue with motion in low light without flash
the op needs other lenses (eg, the f1.4 primes) for lower light and motion without flash
Don't tell me, I am certainly not defending this lens.
I skipped it but some got lucky with good copies
Dynamic range decreases as ISO increases. The G7X II lens is 2, or more, stops brighter than the EF-M 15-45mm. For the same shutter speed, the G7X II can still be at base ISO when the M6 II is at ISO 400. If you look at the dynamic range chart linked above, at any ISO setting, the M6 II has worse dynamic range than the G7X II set at an ISO 2 stops lower (assuming the G7X II has a setting that is 2 stops lower).
All of these comments are specifically around the 15-45mm due to R2D2's initial suggestion to get the M6 II kitted with the 15-45mm and then just crop to get to the 100mm equivalent of the G7X II.
all this analysis doesn't take into account that this lens is for good light iso 100-300 where your arguments are ludicrous
I don't remember seeing any documentation that stated the 15-45mm only worked from ISO 100-300. Does the camera just lockup if you try to use ISO 400?
no, but the 0.3 - 0.5 PDR difference is meaningless
So, 1.1 is really significant, but 0.5 is meaningless?
well here I have experience with RP vs M6II which has a PDR difference of 1.0 in favor of the M6II at base iso -- and I provided a push/pull demo in this thread for the m6II -- which I can't push/pull RP files like I can M6Ii files -- so yeah, PDR 1.0 makes a difference and the reason I use M6II for my landscapes.
But you haven't been able to convince me your Fuji, with a 0.2 better PDR has real world better DR than M6II
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%20M6%20Mark%20II,Canon%20EOS%20RP,FujiFilm%20X-T3(ES),FujiFilm%20X-T3(MS)
The OP has stated they will only be starting with one lens. I am pretty sure they will need to use that lens at ISO's much higher than 300.
well, DXO PL5 with deep prime would be the ops friend at higher iso's
as Storm said, if the plan is to buy this one kit lens, that is a bad plan. I'd just stay with the G7XII.
Well, that "bad plan" is exactly what was recommended by your buddy R2, and it is what prompted this entire sub thread.
As I read it, R2 was saying get the kit because you get the EVF and the better operation and feature set, but don't stop there
It looks like you agree with me that the M6 II with only the 15-45mm lens would not be a good improvement over the G7X II, but you are completely dismissing any of the measurable technical reasons.
I understand the theory, but the operation and feature set can drive one to a start with the kit as long as more lenses comes soon enough
it is interesting that everything seems to be stuck in a one lens mode -- the R10 has only one RF-s lens available of interest to me, the RF-s 18-150 and with budget constraints the Op may only be able to swing one lens.
Given the budget constraints, and that it will be 6 months + before a budget for a second lens, heck, get the R10 + RF 18-150 and enjoy the digic 10 and R3 like focus system and snappy operation while you wait for Canon to make some more RF-s lenses. That is not a bad plan for the op since they keep what they buy for a long time
The m6II sings with the right m mount lenses
(the OP's use case), the 15-45mm kit lens kills many of the advantages of the M6 II.
Cropping only exasperates the situation.
The 15-45mm shouldn't be your the only lens ror an M6ii.
Unless you're offering to buy the OP an extra lens, their plan is to just start with a kit lens.
That's a bad plan. In that case the OP shouldn't get the M6ii at all.
I'd agree with you Storm.
Starting with only the 15-45mm certainly would not be my choice. I think I would rather just buy the bare body and drill a hole in the body cap to make a pinhole lens.
