X-H2S subject tracking miss

I don't pretend to know anything about birding or taking photos of birds, this was very much a coincidence.

On a recent walk in a park, a Robin decided to land and hop around about 10-15 meters away so I decided to take a few shots. I had the X-H2S with the 70-300, and switched over to bird subject tracking. The OSD kept showing a focus lock on the birds eye, but then kept focusing on the grass behind it.

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

Admittedly the robin wasn't fully in the sun. After several moments waiting for the camera to actually lock on, I gave up and turned subject tracking off, relying on wide-tracking instead to lock on to the bird.

X-H2S with 70-300, wide-tracking AF

Tried turning subject tracking back on...

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

It was very strange, as the indicators for AF were right on the bird and its eye. It was a bit of a disappointing performance, but it's early days on this camera. Perhaps a firmware update will make subject tracking more reliable.

Has anyone else experienced this?

When you were using Subject Tracking was it AF-C or AF-S?

If AF-C, what AF-C settings?

If AF-C, Zone, Single Point or Wide Tracking?

Why would Wide Tracking lock the bird?  It will focus on something with contrast and it did.  You want to use Zone or Single Point.

Morris

I'm not surprised to hear someone report having problems like this.  I'm not saying the X-H2S has an issue.  I'm not saying that this is user error.

What I am saying is that you have a relatively low detailed subject, a gray body and head at too long a distance, sitting in a sea of very detailed and high contrast grass.

I would expect an advanced camera like the X-H2S to be able to easily nail this shot.  But I'm also not surprised in the least if someone reports that it's not working.

The Nikon Z9 also has many reports of scenes where the camera's AF system will fail to grab focus on what to the photographer looks like an obvious subject and instead locks onto the background.

Nikon has been making continual tweaks to the advanced AF system of the Z9.  I'm sure we can expect to see many refinements to the X-H2S AF system.

I have made similar experiences in situations where the bird sits in front of or in a bright spot of ground or grass like in this case. The bright color and high contrast of the ground versus the dark and not very contrasty bird seems to confuse the AF. I hope this can be fixed in a future firmware update.

FCi wrote:

I don't pretend to know anything about birding or taking photos of birds, this was very much a coincidence.

On a recent walk in a park, a Robin decided to land and hop around about 10-15 meters away so I decided to take a few shots. I had the X-H2S with the 70-300, and switched over to bird subject tracking. The OSD kept showing a focus lock on the birds eye, but then kept focusing on the grass behind it.

Admittedly the robin wasn't fully in the sun. After several moments waiting for the camera to actually lock on, I gave up and turned subject tracking off, relying on wide-tracking instead to lock on to the bird.

Tried turning subject tracking back on...

It was very strange, as the indicators for AF were right on the bird and its eye. It was a bit of a disappointing performance, but it's early days on this camera. Perhaps a firmware update will make subject tracking more reliable.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I'm surprised it couldn't lock on - especially the one where you switched to wide/area tracking.

I've had problems with tracking birds with a busy background - but not just sitting there.

Can you share the original of the last one so that we can see the settings?

michaeladawson wrote:

I'm not surprised to hear someone report having problems like this. I'm not saying the X-H2S has an issue. I'm not saying that this is user error.

What I am saying is that you have a relatively low detailed subject, a gray body and head at too long a distance, sitting in a sea of very detailed and high contrast grass.

I would expect an advanced camera like the X-H2S to be able to easily nail this shot. But I'm also not surprised in the least if someone reports that it's not working.

The Nikon Z9 also has many reports of scenes where the camera's AF system will fail to grab focus on what to the photographer looks like an obvious subject and instead locks onto the background.

Nikon has been making continual tweaks to the advanced AF system of the Z9. I'm sure we can expect to see many refinements to the X-H2S AF system.

I'm waiting for the OP to answer my questions to understand what happened with this relatively easy subject.   Cameras require instructions to understand what the photographer wants to do.  If this was wide tracking the camera would have to guess the subject and your are correct, contrast is going to play a part.  Had the photographer used zone or single point and placed it on the subject I suspect we would be looking at sharp images.

Morris

Morris0 wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

I'm not surprised to hear someone report having problems like this. I'm not saying the X-H2S has an issue. I'm not saying that this is user error.

What I am saying is that you have a relatively low detailed subject, a gray body and head at too long a distance, sitting in a sea of very detailed and high contrast grass.

I would expect an advanced camera like the X-H2S to be able to easily nail this shot. But I'm also not surprised in the least if someone reports that it's not working.

The Nikon Z9 also has many reports of scenes where the camera's AF system will fail to grab focus on what to the photographer looks like an obvious subject and instead locks onto the background.

Nikon has been making continual tweaks to the advanced AF system of the Z9. I'm sure we can expect to see many refinements to the X-H2S AF system.

I'm waiting for the OP to answer my questions to understand what happened with this relatively easy subject. Cameras require instructions to understand what the photographer wants to do. If this was wide tracking the camera would have to guess the subject and your are correct, contrast is going to play a part. Had the photographer used zone or single point and placed it on the subject I suspect we would be looking at sharp images.

Morris

You don't need to mess with zone or single point with the X-H2S - just wide/area tracking with the focus square over the subject you want it to identify.

FCi wrote:

I don't pretend to know anything about birding or taking photos of birds, this was very much a coincidence.

On a recent walk in a park, a Robin decided to land and hop around about 10-15 meters away so I decided to take a few shots. I had the X-H2S with the 70-300, and switched over to bird subject tracking. The OSD kept showing a focus lock on the birds eye, but then kept focusing on the grass behind it.

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

Admittedly the robin wasn't fully in the sun. After several moments waiting for the camera to actually lock on, I gave up and turned subject tracking off, relying on wide-tracking instead to lock on to the bird.

X-H2S with 70-300, wide-tracking AF

Tried turning subject tracking back on...

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

X-H2S with 70-300, bird subject tracking on

It was very strange, as the indicators for AF were right on the bird and its eye. It was a bit of a disappointing performance, but it's early days on this camera. Perhaps a firmware update will make subject tracking more reliable.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I’ve had this same thing happen with the 70-300 and the 1.4TC. It’s annoying. And I was shooting zone, which is more reliable than wide. Hopefully it’ll get tuned up. For the most part, it hits focus easily.

Greybeard2017 wrote:

Morris0 wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

I'm not surprised to hear someone report having problems like this. I'm not saying the X-H2S has an issue. I'm not saying that this is user error.

What I am saying is that you have a relatively low detailed subject, a gray body and head at too long a distance, sitting in a sea of very detailed and high contrast grass.

I would expect an advanced camera like the X-H2S to be able to easily nail this shot. But I'm also not surprised in the least if someone reports that it's not working.

The Nikon Z9 also has many reports of scenes where the camera's AF system will fail to grab focus on what to the photographer looks like an obvious subject and instead locks onto the background.

Nikon has been making continual tweaks to the advanced AF system of the Z9. I'm sure we can expect to see many refinements to the X-H2S AF system.

I'm waiting for the OP to answer my questions to understand what happened with this relatively easy subject. Cameras require instructions to understand what the photographer wants to do. If this was wide tracking the camera would have to guess the subject and your are correct, contrast is going to play a part. Had the photographer used zone or single point and placed it on the subject I suspect we would be looking at sharp images.

Morris

You don't need to mess with zone or single point with the X-H2S - just wide/area tracking with the focus square over the subject you want it to identify.

You are right.  That’s how it’s supposed to work.

However, what I’m saying is cameras like the Z9 and X-H2S have little flaws in their AF logic that sometimes miss in certain situations.  Nikon is continuing to tweak the Z9 and I’m sure Fujifilm is tweaking the X-H2.

Until these tweaks are released the solution for the time being is to know your camera and AF system and intervene as needed.

michaeladawson wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

Morris0 wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

I'm not surprised to hear someone report having problems like this. I'm not saying the X-H2S has an issue. I'm not saying that this is user error.

What I am saying is that you have a relatively low detailed subject, a gray body and head at too long a distance, sitting in a sea of very detailed and high contrast grass.

I would expect an advanced camera like the X-H2S to be able to easily nail this shot. But I'm also not surprised in the least if someone reports that it's not working.

The Nikon Z9 also has many reports of scenes where the camera's AF system will fail to grab focus on what to the photographer looks like an obvious subject and instead locks onto the background.

Nikon has been making continual tweaks to the advanced AF system of the Z9. I'm sure we can expect to see many refinements to the X-H2S AF system.

I'm waiting for the OP to answer my questions to understand what happened with this relatively easy subject. Cameras require instructions to understand what the photographer wants to do. If this was wide tracking the camera would have to guess the subject and your are correct, contrast is going to play a part. Had the photographer used zone or single point and placed it on the subject I suspect we would be looking at sharp images.

Morris

You don't need to mess with zone or single point with the X-H2S - just wide/area tracking with the focus square over the subject you want it to identify.

You are right. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

However, what I’m saying is cameras like the Z9 and X-H2S have little flaws in their AF logic that sometimes miss in certain situations. Nikon is continuing to tweak the Z9 and I’m sure Fujifilm is tweaking the X-H2.

Until these tweaks are released the solution for the time being is to know your camera and AF system and intervene as needed.

Certainly a good idea to know your camera - but my perception is that you have to turn off subject detection in order to intervene with the X-H2S.

If you want to use subject tracking then zone and single point won't have much benefit over wide/area and using the focus square.

For this kind of situations (perching birds) , I program a button to recall C1 and C1 is:

spot metering

15FPS

single point AFC

Speed 1/400

Auto ISO

Voila, a single push and you 'll get the shot

Press again to go back to your previous setting

I'd not rely on Wide , nor Zone in this instance

Hope this helps

Greybeard2017 wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

Morris0 wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

I'm not surprised to hear someone report having problems like this. I'm not saying the X-H2S has an issue. I'm not saying that this is user error.

What I am saying is that you have a relatively low detailed subject, a gray body and head at too long a distance, sitting in a sea of very detailed and high contrast grass.

I would expect an advanced camera like the X-H2S to be able to easily nail this shot. But I'm also not surprised in the least if someone reports that it's not working.

The Nikon Z9 also has many reports of scenes where the camera's AF system will fail to grab focus on what to the photographer looks like an obvious subject and instead locks onto the background.

Nikon has been making continual tweaks to the advanced AF system of the Z9. I'm sure we can expect to see many refinements to the X-H2S AF system.

I'm waiting for the OP to answer my questions to understand what happened with this relatively easy subject. Cameras require instructions to understand what the photographer wants to do. If this was wide tracking the camera would have to guess the subject and your are correct, contrast is going to play a part. Had the photographer used zone or single point and placed it on the subject I suspect we would be looking at sharp images.

Morris

You don't need to mess with zone or single point with the X-H2S - just wide/area tracking with the focus square over the subject you want it to identify.

You are right. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

However, what I’m saying is cameras like the Z9 and X-H2S have little flaws in their AF logic that sometimes miss in certain situations. Nikon is continuing to tweak the Z9 and I’m sure Fujifilm is tweaking the X-H2.

Until these tweaks are released the solution for the time being is to know your camera and AF system and intervene as needed.

Certainly a good idea to know your camera - but my perception is that you have to turn off subject detection in order to intervene with the X-H2S.

If you want to use subject tracking then zone and single point won't have much benefit over wide/area and using the focus square.

What I experienced with the X-H2s is that AF starts by using the focus setup you have.  If you use wide area then the camera will jump to what ever has contrast or is closest and the track in AF-C.  If the camera detects a subject, it will follow it per the AF-C setting.  It dose basically the same in zone.  I did not try single point.

Morris

FCi wrote:

Morris0 wrote:

When you were using Subject Tracking was it AF-C or AF-S?

If AF-C, what AF-C settings?

If AF-C, Zone, Single Point or Wide Tracking?

Why would Wide Tracking lock the bird? It will focus on something with contrast and it did. You want to use Zone or Single Point.

Morris

I was on AF-C in 'Wide/Tracking' mode, which after a half-press keeps the focus point locked and following the target if it moves or you reframe (old habits).

AF-C settings were on default 1 multi-purpose: halfway tracking sensitivity, 0 speed tracking sensitivity, and zone area switching auto. The robin was fairly stationary, not hopping around or flying.

When the robin landed, I toggled on subject tracking set to birds and it displayed a focus lock on the birds eye and body, but was focusing on the grass in the background.

It had a few moments where it did focus on the bird, but would then focus on the background again with the UI still showing it had acquired the bird the whole time.

Hope that answers your questions!

Yes and this is what I feel went on:

The camera did detect the bird yet wide tracking continued to operate and as it frequently dose did no focus on the desired subject.  The firmware could do better yet till they improve it, I suspect you are better off using zone as you have more control of what is going on.

Morris

FCi wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

Can you share the original of the last one so that we can see the settings?

I accessed the exif data and found 4 of the 6 photos with bird subject tracking had missed focus, even though their data shows references to locating the birds eye and body.

This is the data from the last image:

NumFaceElements: 4

FaceElementTypes: Bird Body*Bird Head*Bird Left Eye*Bird Right Eye

FaceElementPositions: 1821 1264 3282 2444 1814 1264 2330 1587 2014 1333 2102 1421 2014 1326 2095 1407

The next 5 shots with subject tracking 'off' had all 4 achieve accurate focus.

There are a lot more settings - where is the focus point - was this in AF-S - was it single shot - was it focus release priority for example - and its a bit difficult to visualize the tracking placement without the full image file.

We took the kids for a spontaneous trip to DC to hit the Natural History Museum. People eat right outside of the museum, so the birds get close. We sat and had ice cream, and someone had left a crumbled cracker in the dirt. I had the xh2s and the 33 1.4, and I couldn’t believe the degree to which it struggled to recognize the birds, especially since they were within two feet. Zone focus, using the joystick to put focus right over the birds…still…many misses.

Mikeywcu wrote:

We took the kids for a spontaneous trip to DC to hit the Natural History Museum. People eat right outside of the museum, so the birds get close. We sat and had ice cream, and someone had left a crumbled cracker in the dirt. I had the xh2s and the 33 1.4, and I couldn’t believe the degree to which it struggled to recognize the birds, especially since they were within two feet. Zone focus, using the joystick to put focus right over the birds…still…many misses.

You are shooting low contrast backlit subjects at f/1.4, for no apparent reason. This looks like user error, not a camera problem, to me.

CeeDave wrote:

Mikeywcu wrote:

We took the kids for a spontaneous trip to DC to hit the Natural History Museum. People eat right outside of the museum, so the birds get close. We sat and had ice cream, and someone had left a crumbled cracker in the dirt. I had the xh2s and the 33 1.4, and I couldn’t believe the degree to which it struggled to recognize the birds, especially since they were within two feet. Zone focus, using the joystick to put focus right over the birds…still…many misses.

You are shooting low contrast backlit subjects at f/1.4, for no apparent reason. This looks like user error, not a camera problem, to me.

Love the “no apparent reason” part.

Sure, open to the feedback. It wasn’t a bird outing…just snapping. Still, I was surprised at the degree to which the cam struggled to actually locate the birds while focusing.

Mikeywcu wrote:

CeeDave wrote:

Mikeywcu wrote:

We took the kids for a spontaneous trip to DC to hit the Natural History Museum. People eat right outside of the museum, so the birds get close. We sat and had ice cream, and someone had left a crumbled cracker in the dirt. I had the xh2s and the 33 1.4, and I couldn’t believe the degree to which it struggled to recognize the birds, especially since they were within two feet. Zone focus, using the joystick to put focus right over the birds…still…many misses.

You are shooting low contrast backlit subjects at f/1.4, for no apparent reason. This looks like user error, not a camera problem, to me.

Love the “no apparent reason” part.

Sure, open to the feedback. It wasn’t a bird outing…just snapping. Still, I was surprised at the degree to which the cam struggled to actually locate the birds while focusing.

Birds are usually shot wide open.

Morris