Help choosing a budget MFT Camera

Metaporic wrote:

Hi guys,

I am looking to switch to MFT (Current camera is the 'ancient' and bulky Sony A100 and A-Mount) as it seems to offer the best balance of features and cost in a small package. However, I have been struggling to choose a camera and feel like I am going in circles researching. I hope people can give me some guidance here, maybe point out some bodies or combinations I am missing or give some user experiences.

Things I am looking for in a camera, with a maximum budget of £200 (Buying used):

- Compact enough that I can easily take out in a jacket pocket with a small lens or out in a single small shoulder bag with an all round travel lens and macro lens/fast prime.
- Extra physical dials and shortcuts - I have dyslexia (Its made working with cameras hard) so the more intuitive the control scheme the better. I love the function dial on my A100.
- Good WiFi/Bluetooth connectivity is a nice to have, ideally so I can easily backup and edit photos on my phone. - Decent low light performance. I like shooting in overcast weather and cityscapes at night handheld.
- Decent Auto-Focus, I won't be using it for sports photography but I do enjoy some casual wildlife photography as well as street photography. - A viewfinder is a nice to have but not essential, anything will be an upgrade from the optical viewfinder of my A100 and its awful LCD.
- I don't care at all about video, in fact I would be completely happy if the camera came without video.

Based on the above, I have found these three cameras:

Olympus OM-D E-M10 II (£190) - This is the camera I am drawn to most, I rediscovered MFT as a option because of a search for small cameras with more physical dials. This model is the one that came up. It seems really great feature-wise with plenty of dials and nice to haves. I do worry about the apparently complicated menu system and contrast AF that is supposed to be a bit hit and miss. For reference, the main reason I got rid of a Sony A5000 and NEX 3 was because of their terrible C-AF.

Olympus Pen 9 (£210 with kit lens) - This has a newer image processor than the E-M10 Mark II, slightly better AF (But still C-AF) and has from what I have read, a slightly more streamlined menu system (Not sure by how much). It however lacks the customisability and additional controls of the E-M10 which is a shame.

Panasonic GX850 (£110) - This had me excited at first, it seems to avoid the Autofocus limitations of the other two cameras thanks to DFD (I think only when using Panasonic lenses though?) BUT it has a Low Light ISO of only 580 according to DXOMark. That is not much more than my Sony A100 that is painfully noisy at ISO 800 or above. The other big drawback similar to the Pen-9 is it lacks the additional dials of the E-M10 Mark II, but I hear Panasonic is supposed to have a more logical and reasonable menu system which could maybe compensate for that somewhat.

So what do you all think? Which camera would you recommend? I am open to all suggestions.

Get the Em10 mark ii.  It's the best of the bunch you listed.

John

A Panny shooter here, no comment on OMDS models.

Metaporic wrote:

Hi guys,

I am looking to switch to MFT (Current camera is the 'ancient' and bulky Sony A100 and A-Mount) as it seems to offer the best balance of features and cost in a small package. However, I have been struggling to choose a camera and feel like I am going in circles researching. I hope people can give me some guidance here, maybe point out some bodies or combinations I am missing or give some user experiences.

Things I am looking for in a camera, with a maximum budget of £200 (Buying used):

- Compact enough that I can easily take out in a jacket pocket with a small lens or out in a single small shoulder bag with an all round travel lens and macro lens/fast prime.
- Extra physical dials and shortcuts - I have dyslexia (Its made working with cameras hard) so the more intuitive the control scheme the better. I love the function dial on my A100.
- Good WiFi/Bluetooth connectivity is a nice to have, ideally so I can easily backup and edit photos on my phone. - Decent low light performance. I like shooting in overcast weather and cityscapes at night handheld.
- Decent Auto-Focus, I won't be using it for sports photography but I do enjoy some casual wildlife photography as well as street photography. - A viewfinder is a nice to have but not essential, anything will be an upgrade from the optical viewfinder of my A100 and its awful LCD.
- I don't care at all about video, in fact I would be completely happy if the camera came without video.

Based on the above, I have found these three cameras:

[...]

Panasonic GX850 (£110) - This had me excited at first, it seems to avoid the Autofocus limitations of the other two cameras thanks to DFD (I think only when using Panasonic lenses though?) BUT it has a Low Light ISO of only 580 according to DXOMark. That is not much more than my Sony A100 that is painfully noisy at ISO 800 or above. The other big drawback similar to the Pen-9 is it lacks the additional dials of the E-M10 Mark II, but I hear Panasonic is supposed to have a more logical and reasonable menu system which could maybe compensate for that somewhat.

By a chance I had bought a display copy of GF9 (a.k.a. GX850) for small of <US$130 (after deduction of US$100 of the de-kit value of 12-32) last year end. Covid has limited my intensive testing on this camera, but obviously I have confidence that it can produce relative clean SOOC JPG upto ISO1600. FYI the smaller size sensor of M43 system is happier with optimal exposure. i.e., get the optimal exposure output can be reasonably clean but if purely relying on ETTR and do shadow lifting in post, unless by a good software like DXO, the output would be noisy even at base ISO.

The following was one of the sample from GF9 (SOOC JPG) @ISO1250, please see would this be of your satisfaction.

Comparing to the Sony sensor used by OMDS models,  Panny models using Panny sensor (true for all Panny 16Mp models), there is generally ~1 stop disadvantage (on DR & Noise IIRC).

However, I am not encourage GX850 unless you need a tiny camera. It has no IBIS, so not DUAL IS supported and rely on OIS lenses, DUAL IS can at least offer 1+ more effective stabilization. GX850 also has no evf, under bright outdoor it is very difficult to read the LCD. It also has a slow flash synchronize speed because it does not using m-shutter (limited EFCS & is mainly an e-shutter model) and it does not support real time zebra operation. Basically it is an entry class model providing some interesting selfie feature.

It is my backup camera to replace my old GF3.

I might look for GX85, which is a higher spec model, more equivalent to the EM10 class of OMDS. It has an EVF, IBIS/DUAL IS supported, a more full feature model can produce SOOC JPG up to ISO3200 to my satisfaction, plus real time zebra operation. Although you don't care about video, but the 4K photo modes (for high speed shooting, similar to the Pro-capture of OMDS) and Post Focus (for focus stacking) which are enabled because of the 4K video capacity indeed making this little camera more fun to use.

From time to time the twin kits lens set of GX85 could be found around US$500 (new, with 12-32 f/3.5-5.6 & 45-150 f/4-5.6). You might find cheaper used. My wife pairs GX85 with 14-140 f/3.5-5.6 (<700g in weight), which is a good all round all-in-one lens solution.

So what do you all think? Which camera would you recommend? I am open to all suggestions.

My 2 cents.

I'll throw in another vote for the GX85. It may cost a bit more than the GX850, but it has a lot more features along with the DFD. Mainly it has IBIS (Dual IS support), tilt screen, EVF, unlimited 4K recording, the shutter works a lot better for flash (1/160 flash sync instead of 1/50). GX850 does have a selfie screen though, which the GX85 does not have.

Photongraphy wrote:

Metaporic wrote:

contrast AF that is supposed to be a bit hit and miss.

...that's not true: Contrast AF is very, very accurate, it just isn't as fast as PDAF (or DFD for that matter). If Contrast AF fails, it is because the subject moves too fast and/or there's too litte contrast/detail in the subject (often due to low light).
That's why all (MFT) camera's use Contrast Focus in S-AF mode, only in C-AF mode they solely rely on PDF (DFD) [when available].

That said - when you're into low light photography, you'll know that's not MFT's strongest point...

Not really if low light AF is concerned. Of course on DR and noise a larger size sensor would have the advantage.

If you look at the camera reviews of Imaging Resource, they have a section (likely been skipped on new models) specifically dedicated to low light AF. Among the cameras of Canon, Nikon, Sony, and of course Olympus and Panny, the LLAF performance of Panny are among the best. e.g. on low contrast target, G85 can do AF @f/2.8 without AF Assist Light dark as >-6.8ev(?). It is in the same class with the best of the industry. For GX85, IR even was out of resource to find out how dark it can go on high contrast target.

I guess CDAF, use the entire sensor surface to do focusing, can have more available light to work on vs the much smaller PDAF detection point. BTW, not all CDAF can offer similar performance. e.g. the older Sony NEX, use CDAF on low lighting, indeed don't do that well and also hunt and slow.

you'll want a fast lens - and a fast lens also gives a higher success rate with Contrast AF.

Always for any AF system. 😊

As to the choice of a camera model - you can't really go wrong quality-wise, it depends on what kind of photography you do, and what you prefer...

I have both the E-M10 II and E-M5 II and you can't go wrong with either camera.  The M5 II has the 20 megapixel sensor and is rated for all weather along with a few other added features. If you ever plan on using any of the larger and heavier Pro lenses such as the 40-150 f/ 2.8 Pro lens, the E M5 II will make for a more balanced combo.  But, I've used that lens on my M10 II before getting the M5 II.  If you decide to go with the M10 II, I recommend adding a grip to it as one will really improve how it feels in the hand.

scbwr wrote:

I have both the E-M10 II and E-M5 II and you can't go wrong with either camera. The M5 II has the 20 megapixel sensor and is rated for all weather along with a few other added features. If you ever plan on using any of the larger and heavier Pro lenses such as the 40-150 f/ 2.8 Pro lens, the E M5 II will make for a more balanced combo. But, I've used that lens on my M10 II before getting the M5 II. If you decide to go with the M10 II, I recommend adding a grip to it as one will really improve how it feels in the hand.

Are you sure it's the E-M5 II you have, with a 20MP sensor?

Peter

Metaporic wrote:

Hi guys,

I am looking to switch to MFT (Current camera is the 'ancient' and bulky Sony A100 and A-Mount) as it seems to offer the best balance of features and cost in a small package. However, I have been struggling to choose a camera and feel like I am going in circles researching. I hope people can give me some guidance here, maybe point out some bodies or combinations I am missing or give some user experiences.

Things I am looking for in a camera, with a maximum budget of £200 (Buying used):

- Compact enough that I can easily take out in a jacket pocket with a small lens or out in a single small shoulder bag with an all round travel lens and macro lens/fast prime.
- Extra physical dials and shortcuts - I have dyslexia (Its made working with cameras hard) so the more intuitive the control scheme the better. I love the function dial on my A100.
- Good WiFi/Bluetooth connectivity is a nice to have, ideally so I can easily backup and edit photos on my phone. - Decent low light performance. I like shooting in overcast weather and cityscapes at night handheld.
- Decent Auto-Focus, I won't be using it for sports photography but I do enjoy some casual wildlife photography as well as street photography. - A viewfinder is a nice to have but not essential, anything will be an upgrade from the optical viewfinder of my A100 and its awful LCD.
- I don't care at all about video, in fact I would be completely happy if the camera came without video.

Based on the above, I have found these three cameras:

Olympus OM-D E-M10 II (£190) - This is the camera I am drawn to most, I rediscovered MFT as a option because of a search for small cameras with more physical dials. This model is the one that came up. It seems really great feature-wise with plenty of dials and nice to haves. I do worry about the apparently complicated menu system and contrast AF that is supposed to be a bit hit and miss. For reference, the main reason I got rid of a Sony A5000 and NEX 3 was because of their terrible C-AF.

Olympus Pen 9 (£210 with kit lens) - This has a newer image processor than the E-M10 Mark II, slightly better AF (But still C-AF) and has from what I have read, a slightly more streamlined menu system (Not sure by how much). It however lacks the customisability and additional controls of the E-M10 which is a shame.

Panasonic GX850 (£110) - This had me excited at first, it seems to avoid the Autofocus limitations of the other two cameras thanks to DFD (I think only when using Panasonic lenses though?) BUT it has a Low Light ISO of only 580 according to DXOMark. That is not much more than my Sony A100 that is painfully noisy at ISO 800 or above.

Yes, the 20MP MFT sensors are better at high ISO. However, if you're shooting RAW, I strongly recommend you use a trial version of DxO PhotoLab 5 Elite and apply DeepPRIME noise reduction. I think you'll be amazed at how good ISO 1600 and even 3200 images from a GX850 or equivalent can look.

You might also consider a used Panasonic GX7. It has the older 16MP sensor, but it is substantially cleaner than the 16MP MFT sensors that came before it. And, it has a nice grip and a tilting EVF that's much bigger than the GX850's. The GX7 is an oldie-but-goodie. I find Panasonic's menus among the more straightforward of the many different brands I've used.

Panasonic's 12-32 is a surprisingly good zoom that's tiny and featherweight. If you need more light gathering, consider an f1.7/f1.8 prime, such as Panasonic's similarly compact pancake 20/1.7.

The other big drawback similar to the Pen-9 is it lacks the additional dials of the E-M10 Mark II, but I hear Panasonic is supposed to have a more logical and reasonable menu system which could maybe compensate for that somewhat.

So what do you all think? Which camera would you recommend? I am open to all suggestions.

One thing to be aware of that you might not know about until the camera's actually in your hands (or at your eye, more specifically); some Panasonics have absolutely wretched viewfinders, for some people. The sequential field EVF, as on the GX85 and lots of others, has a color tearing effect that bothers some people. It's pretty much the same EVF effect as on, say, the ZS100/200. Some people can tolerate it, some hate it.

In general, I pretty much hate Panasonic EVFs. The EVF optics seem to be made of old bubble wrap in the cheaper cameras. I haven't tried a top tier Panasonic, I would hope they're much better. The lenses, however, are often top notch. That's one of the beauties of M43; you can combine bodies/lenses from multiple manufacturers without a lot of fuss.

Just to balance this: I have never noticed the color tearing effect and find both the GX80 EVF and it's eyepiece sufficient. I have no comparison to higher spec cameras though, so it might be a question of expectations.

ThePalindrome wrote:

Just to balance this: I have never noticed the color tearing effect and find both the GX80 EVF and it's eyepiece sufficient. I have no comparison to higher spec cameras though, so it might be a question of expectations.

My main issue isn't with the EVF's color tearing (only very rarely notice it on GX7, GX80, GX9 - nor on compacts that use a similar panel) - but with its left-corner placement, which is far from ideal for those predominantly left-eyed, as I am.

Even so, after taking a day's first few pictures, that too seems of little importance!

Peter

Sure for using with the left eye it sure is not ideal.

Metaporic wrote:

Hi guys,

I am looking to switch to MFT (Current camera is the 'ancient' and bulky Sony A100 and A-Mount) as it seems to offer the best balance of features and cost in a small package. However, I have been struggling to choose a camera and feel like I am going in circles researching. I hope people can give me some guidance here, maybe point out some bodies or combinations I am missing or give some user experiences.

Things I am looking for in a camera, with a maximum budget of £200 (Buying used):

- Compact enough that I can easily take out in a jacket pocket with a small lens or out in a single small shoulder bag with an all round travel lens and macro lens/fast prime.
- Extra physical dials and shortcuts - I have dyslexia (Its made working with cameras hard) so the more intuitive the control scheme the better. I love the function dial on my A100.
- Good WiFi/Bluetooth connectivity is a nice to have, ideally so I can easily backup and edit photos on my phone. - Decent low light performance. I like shooting in overcast weather and cityscapes at night handheld.
- Decent Auto-Focus, I won't be using it for sports photography but I do enjoy some casual wildlife photography as well as street photography. - A viewfinder is a nice to have but not essential, anything will be an upgrade from the optical viewfinder of my A100 and its awful LCD.
- I don't care at all about video, in fact I would be completely happy if the camera came without video.

Based on the above, I have found these three cameras:

Olympus OM-D E-M10 II (£190) - This is the camera I am drawn to most, I rediscovered MFT as a option because of a search for small cameras with more physical dials. This model is the one that came up. It seems really great feature-wise with plenty of dials and nice to haves. I do worry about the apparently complicated menu system and contrast AF that is supposed to be a bit hit and miss. For reference, the main reason I got rid of a Sony A5000 and NEX 3 was because of their terrible C-AF.

Olympus Pen 9 (£210 with kit lens) - This has a newer image processor than the E-M10 Mark II, slightly better AF (But still C-AF) and has from what I have read, a slightly more streamlined menu system (Not sure by how much). It however lacks the customisability and additional controls of the E-M10 which is a shame.

Panasonic GX850 (£110) - This had me excited at first, it seems to avoid the Autofocus limitations of the other two cameras thanks to DFD (I think only when using Panasonic lenses though?) BUT it has a Low Light ISO of only 580 according to DXOMark. That is not much more than my Sony A100 that is painfully noisy at ISO 800 or above. The other big drawback similar to the Pen-9 is it lacks the additional dials of the E-M10 Mark II, but I hear Panasonic is supposed to have a more logical and reasonable menu system which could maybe compensate for that somewhat.

So what do you all think? Which camera would you recommend? I am open to all suggestions.

Can highly recommend the EM10 ii. I've had one since new. Absolutely nothing wrong with autofocus! It's brilliant. Has a viewfinder - which was one of my top criteria. knobs and dials all in the right places. Don't worry about the menu, it's not that bad. Once you set it up to how you want you never really need to use it again. Absolutely love mine - fast, ergonomic. I used the article below to help set up my menus initially, to get best quality photos and usage. I would definitely get that over a Pen 9 - because of the ergonomics, handling, viewfinder, higher ISO. Don't know much about the Panasonic but I was blown away with the EM10ii. Once you've set it up. Best camera I've had since film days.

At the time it was a choice between that, the EM5 ii and the Pen F. The EM5ii and Pen F were double the price. I didn't like the handling and off centre viewfinder on the Pen F. I loved the handling of the EM5 ii. But went for the EM10 ii on cost, to allow for purchasing extra lenses and haven't been disappointed.

To explain about settings. Once you've got the main settings set in the menu, most other settings are via the dials or function buttons on the camera. There are three function buttons can be set to various things. I have one set to AEL/AFL, one set to manual focus switch, one set to autofocus point size (switch between small and standard autofocus point). Aperture/shutter and exposure compensation are set by the dials - no need to take your eye from the viewfinder. Some lenses have a manual focus switch. Any other settings can be accessed quickly and easily by a press of the ok button (super control panel). Via the touch screen. This is explained in the article below (and the one I used for my initial camera set up).

https://robinwong.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-robin-wongs-om-d-camera-cheat-sheet.html

I don't have my computer with photos on right now, but this was just a casual snapshot taken the other day with the EM10 ii and 45 mm lens. Just a jpeg

I'm a big fan of the GX850, but if I had to pick only one body it probably wouldn't be it. IQ wise it's really not at any disadvantage and unless you're gonna shoot full manual it's pretty easy to press up on the rear dial to switch between exposure compensation and aperture or shutter speed.

The lack of IBIS and an EVF will be a limitation for certain use cases tho. Namely shooting static scenes in low light or video will benefit a ton from IBIS, and shooting longer teles and/or in broad daylight can be easier with an EVF. I use my GX850 as a second body and/or for nighttime and indoor social occasions so those aren't an issue for me, but it's not the only body I shoot.

The GX850's mechanical shutter only goes to 1/500 too, after that it's using e-shutter, which could be an issue when shooting action and/or fast primes (wide open w/o an ND) during the day, as you'd either need stay under 1/500 or deal with the potential rolling shutter distortion of e-shutter.

I think if you're looking for really great C-AF and/or shooting action at short range the GX850 might be somewhat better than the other two Oly bodies, but all three are likely to disappoint for different reasons. For all around use the E-M10 II would be the most well rounded tho, C-AF is just a big weakness for Oly's lower end and older bodies. S-AF OTOH is more than fine on just about any M4/3 body.

Pana menus are easier to learn, I'd agree with others, if the GX85 can be found in the same price range it's worth a look.