How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Started 6 months ago | Questions
Sourov
Sourov Regular Member • Posts: 304
How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Ok first, in the world of Film photography , I am a new born baby who is learning to walk. So, apologies in advance.

Out of curiosity, I got myself a Kodak p3200.

So, my first question.

What is (or are) the best ways to shoot Kodak P3200?

2nd: if I shoot for 800iso (set the iso 800in camera) and develop for 3200 as par the Kodak requirements, am I pushing it for 4+ stops by over developing?

And finally,

What are the recommended ways to shoot for 25000 iso?

Thank you.

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Sourov Deb

ANSWER:
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Tri-X Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
2

Sourov wrote:

Ok first, in the world of Film photography , I am a new born baby who is learning to walk. So, apologies in advance.

Out of curiosity, I got myself a Kodak p3200.

So, my first question.

What is (or are) the best ways to shoot Kodak P3200?

2nd: if I shoot for 800iso (set the iso 800in camera) and develop for 3200 as par the Kodak requirements, am I pushing it for 4+ stops by over developing?

And finally,

What are the recommended ways to shoot for 25000 iso?

Thank you.

Pushing film involves underexposing it in the camera, and then extending development. An example would be shooting Tri-X, a 400 speed film, at iso1600 on your camera  (two stops underexposed). Then, instead of developing the film for just 7 minutes in Xtol, you would develop it for 9 minutes or more, to give the underexposed film more time to develop and look normal.

Pulling is the opposite. Tri-X exposed at iso100 for instance, and then shortening the development from 7 minutes to 5 minutes or so to tame the additional exposure and look normal.

Generally speaking, the more you push film, the more contrast you get due to the extra time in the developer. If you try for iso 25,000 with P3200 I wouldn't expect to see any shadows because they will be pure black. It will require experimentation.

The two fast black and white films (P3200 and Delta 3200) each have a true speed of around iso1000, and if you use them accordingly they work great. A common technique for Delta 3200 is to expose at iso 1600 on your camera settings, but develop for iso3200 for better overall results. I've found P3200 also likes a bit more time in the developer.

Autonerd Senior Member • Posts: 2,989
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
1

Sourov wrote:

Ok first, in the world of Film photography , I am a new born baby who is learning to walk. So, apologies in advance.

I've been shooting film for years and some say I still act like a baby...

What is (or are) the best ways to shoot Kodak P3200?

In a camera! YUK YUK YUK. No, seriously, I think P3200 is meant very low light photography or action (ie sports) photography with a long lens that doesn't have a very large max aperture, and where the grainy/contrasty look isn't desirable (hence the choice of a T-grain film). Probably good if you're a private investigator still shooting film, too...

Me, I'd probably use it for indoor photography -- if I was going to use it. My go-to for low light is HP5+ (a 400-speed film) that I push to 1600.

2nd: if I shoot for 800iso (set the iso 800in camera) and develop for 3200 as par the Kodak requirements, am I pushing it for 4+ stops by over developing?

Well, that's not the Kodak requirement. Kodak says the film is nominally 800 ISO (1000 with T-Max developer) which I suppose is its "box" speed (even if they don't put it on the box).

Regardless: If you haven't already (and I think you have), you should look at the Data Sheet (which you will find here). Page 4 shows the development time for various developers depending on how the film was exposed.

If you shoot it at 800 ASA, you should develop for 800 ASA (so, assuming 68 degrees, 14 minutes in Xtol diluted 1:1). If you want to run it at 3200 speed, you should set the camera for 3200 and develop for 3200 (18.5 mins).

While I haven't tried this, I believe if you shoot the film with the camera set at 800 ASA and develop for 3200, your negatives will come out two stops overexposed.

Here's the deal with pushing (and I hope I'm getting this right; my understanding is tenuous): When silver halide crystals are exposed to light (exposure), some molecules reduce to metallic silver. More light, more reduction; less light, less reduction. This is not enough to see, so (generally) if you were to fix the film (remove unreduced silver halide crystals) without developing you'd get what looked like a blank frame.

Developer does the same thing light does: Reduces silver halide to metallic silver. It works faster/harder/more (however you want to think about it) on crystals that have already had some reduction due to light. So crystals that got a lot of light in exposure get reduced a lot by the developer (lots of silver, dark spot on negative, light spot on print/positive scan). Crystals that didn't get light don't get much reduction, so little silver/light or clear spot on negative/dark spot on print).

Fixer comes and washes away the unreduced silver halide, and the silver spots are the dark bits on your negative.

Pushing works by underexposing the film, then increasing developing time, giving the developer more time to reduce the silver halide crystals that got exposure to light. The dev times are calculated to allow for this.

If you shoot TMax 3200 at 800 and use the longer development time for 3200 ASA you're giving the developer too much time to work. It'll reduce too much silver and you'll get a dark, dense negative and hence a bright/light (overexposed) print/positive scan.

Shooting at 800 and developing for 800 will give you a proper exposure. To do 3200 ASA, you need to shoot at 3200 and develop for 3200 to get the proper ratio of exposure and development.

"Pushing" is a bit of a tricky word with TMax 3200 because of its name, but let's consider it an 800 ASA film per the data sheet (1000 ASA with T-Max devleoper, apparently).

If you were to expose it at 3200 ASA, and develop for 3200 ASA, you have effectively pushed it two stops (a stop doubles the numbers, so 1 stop is 800 x 2; 2 stops is 800 x 2 x 2, or 3200.

If you expose it for 800 ASA and develop it 3200, you've merely overdeveloped it by two stops. With C-41 film, this would be the equivalent of shooting 800 ASA film with the dial set at 200 ASA and developing normally.

A more "conventional" example is my beloved 400-ASA HP5+. If I shoot it at 800 (and develop accordingly), that's a 1-stop push; 1600 is two stops; 3200 is three stops.

Does this make sense?

And finally,

What are the recommended ways to shoot for 25000 iso?

We can find that in the data sheet. First, you'd have to set your camera's dial to 25,000 ASA. If your camera tops out at 6400, like many of mine do, you'd simply take the meter reading and reduce the exposure by two stops. (6400 doubles to 12,800; that doubles to 25,600, so two stops is close enough.) So if your camera meters 1/250 @ f/8, you'd shoot at either 1/60 @ f/8 or 1/250 at f/16 or 1/125 @ f/11.

Then, we look on the Data Sheet -- development time 25000 ASA for Xtol 1:1 is 25 mins. (Bring a book!)

Hope this helps!

Aaron

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Overrank
Overrank Senior Member • Posts: 4,318
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Sourov wrote:

Ok first, in the world of Film photography , I am a new born baby who is learning to walk. So, apologies in advance.

Out of curiosity, I got myself a Kodak p3200.

So, my first question.

What is (or are) the best ways to shoot Kodak P3200?

Because of its speed it’s really for low light / indoor without flash, but I use it frequently for daylight photography - the high speed allows you to stop down and use fast shutter speeds At a reasonable viewing distance the grain isn’t overwhelming, but if you print a 36” x 24” and view from 2” away it’s just a cloud of noise

2nd: if I shoot for 800iso (set the iso 800in camera) and develop for 3200 as par the Kodak requirements, am I pushing it for 4+ stops by over developing?

If you shoot at 3200 then it’s a 2 stop push if you’re developing it yourself, as per the data sheet. BUT if you load it into a camera with auto film sensing it seems to be sensed as a 3200 speed film (I.e. the DX coding appears to be 3200), and some labs (including the one I use) also develop it at 3200 unless you tell them not too - they don’t regard 3200 ASA as a push (YMMV)

( https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/files/products/P3200_FAQs.pdf )

And finally,

What are the recommended ways to shoot for 25000 iso?

Thank you.

Sourov
OP Sourov Regular Member • Posts: 304
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
1

Autonerd wrote:

Sourov wrote:

Ok first, in the world of Film photography , I am a new born baby who is learning to walk. So, apologies in advance.

I've been shooting film for years and some say I still act like a baby...

What is (or are) the best ways to shoot Kodak P3200?

In a camera! YUK YUK YUK. No, seriously, I think P3200 is meant very low light photography or action (ie sports) photography with a long lens that doesn't have a very large max aperture, and where the grainy/contrasty look isn't desirable (hence the choice of a T-grain film). Probably good if you're a private investigator still shooting film, too...

Me, I'd probably use it for indoor photography -- if I was going to use it. My go-to for low light is HP5+ (a 400-speed film) that I push to 1600.

2nd: if I shoot for 800iso (set the iso 800in camera) and develop for 3200 as par the Kodak requirements, am I pushing it for 4+ stops by over developing?

Well, that's not the Kodak requirement. Kodak says the film is nominally 800 ISO (1000 with T-Max developer) which I suppose is its "box" speed (even if they don't put it on the box).

Regardless: If you haven't already (and I think you have), you should look at the Data Sheet (which you will find here). Page 4 shows the development time for various developers depending on how the film was exposed.

If you shoot it at 800 ASA, you should develop for 800 ASA (so, assuming 68 degrees, 14 minutes in Xtol diluted 1:1). If you want to run it at 3200 speed, you should set the camera for 3200 and develop for 3200 (18.5 mins).

While I haven't tried this, I believe if you shoot the film with the camera set at 800 ASA and develop for 3200, your negatives will come out two stops overexposed.

Here's the deal with pushing (and I hope I'm getting this right; my understanding is tenuous): When silver halide crystals are exposed to light (exposure), some molecules reduce to metallic silver. More light, more reduction; less light, less reduction. This is not enough to see, so (generally) if you were to fix the film (remove unreduced silver halide crystals) without developing you'd get what looked like a blank frame.

Developer does the same thing light does: Reduces silver halide to metallic silver. It works faster/harder/more (however you want to think about it) on crystals that have already had some reduction due to light. So crystals that got a lot of light in exposure get reduced a lot by the developer (lots of silver, dark spot on negative, light spot on print/positive scan). Crystals that didn't get light don't get much reduction, so little silver/light or clear spot on negative/dark spot on print).

Fixer comes and washes away the unreduced silver halide, and the silver spots are the dark bits on your negative.

Pushing works by underexposing the film, then increasing developing time, giving the developer more time to reduce the silver halide crystals that got exposure to light. The dev times are calculated to allow for this.

If you shoot TMax 3200 at 800 and use the longer development time for 3200 ASA you're giving the developer too much time to work. It'll reduce too much silver and you'll get a dark, dense negative and hence a bright/light (overexposed) print/positive scan.

Shooting at 800 and developing for 800 will give you a proper exposure. To do 3200 ASA, you need to shoot at 3200 and develop for 3200 to get the proper ratio of exposure and development.

"Pushing" is a bit of a tricky word with TMax 3200 because of its name, but let's consider it an 800 ASA film per the data sheet (1000 ASA with T-Max devleoper, apparently).

If you were to expose it at 3200 ASA, and develop for 3200 ASA, you have effectively pushed it two stops (a stop doubles the numbers, so 1 stop is 800 x 2; 2 stops is 800 x 2 x 2, or 3200.

If you expose it for 800 ASA and develop it 3200, you've merely overdeveloped it by two stops. With C-41 film, this would be the equivalent of shooting 800 ASA film with the dial set at 200 ASA and developing normally.

A more "conventional" example is my beloved 400-ASA HP5+. If I shoot it at 800 (and develop accordingly), that's a 1-stop push; 1600 is two stops; 3200 is three stops.

Does this make sense?

And finally,

What are the recommended ways to shoot for 25000 iso?

We can find that in the data sheet. First, you'd have to set your camera's dial to 25,000 ASA. If your camera tops out at 6400, like many of mine do, you'd simply take the meter reading and reduce the exposure by two stops. (6400 doubles to 12,800; that doubles to 25,600, so two stops is close enough.) So if your camera meters 1/250 @ f/8, you'd shoot at either 1/60 @ f/8 or 1/250 at f/16 or 1/125 @ f/11.

Then, we look on the Data Sheet -- development time 25000 ASA for Xtol 1:1 is 25 mins. (Bring a book!)

Hope this helps!

Aaron

That helps a LOT. Thank you for your time and effort to help me understand 🙂

Salute from Reunion Island.

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Sourov Deb

Tri-X Forum Member • Posts: 65
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
1

Sourov wrote:

Salute from Reunion Island.

Reunion Island?!  Fantastic! Please share pictures when you can.

Autonerd Senior Member • Posts: 2,989
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
1

Sourov wrote:

That helps a LOT. Thank you for your time and effort to help me understand 🙂

Thank you for the thank-you! Glad to help. Looking forward to seeing some pics!

Aaron

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Sourov
OP Sourov Regular Member • Posts: 304
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
1

Tri-X wrote:

Sourov wrote:

Salute from Reunion Island.

Reunion Island?! Fantastic! Please share pictures when you can.

Thank you. Yes I am hoping to share more beautiful photos mostly with film. I have posted some in my IG.

Here is it: https://www.instagram.com/les_treasure_hunters/

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Sourov Deb

Sourov
OP Sourov Regular Member • Posts: 304
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Autonerd wrote:

Sourov wrote:

That helps a LOT. Thank you for your time and effort to help me understand 🙂

Thank you for the thank-you! Glad to help. Looking forward to seeing some pics!

Aaron

Beautiful images in your Flickr 🙂

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Sourov Deb

Autonerd Senior Member • Posts: 2,989
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Sourov wrote:

Beautiful images in your Flickr 🙂

Thx!

Aaron

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Hike Pics
Hike Pics Senior Member • Posts: 2,633
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?
2

About 30 years ago I worked for about 3 years extensively on a " monster grain" project. I worked with Fuji 400, Fuji 1600 and Tri-X 400.....and pushing the heck out of it! I was working at a photo lab and was fortunate to be able to talk to our Kodak rep and get a few rolls of TMZ 3200 when it first came out. After a LOT of shooting and different developing experiments I settled on pushing it to 25,000 using Edwal FG7 1:15 at 85° for 20 minutes. However, because the slightest under/over exposure in the field could cause problems I had to bracket a bit when shooting.

I also started shooting Kodak EES P800/1600, pushing it to 25,000 as well, and printing it with a brand new Kodak Laser Printer. That made things even more grainy!

I was blessed with being able to show my work for a month at an art gallery at a private school in town. I remember talking with the art director beforehand and him say " Please, please.....no Ansel Adams type photos. That's all we get these days". Ha.....no problem!

After the show, I started working with a Pentax 110 camera set. That was getting me real excited until our new digital department guy said he could get the same look with his computer. I went home, packed up all my project in boxes and never messed with it again.

Just a few...

TMX 3200 > 25,000

P800/1600 > 25,000

I might make a post soon with a few more images and info.

Sourov
OP Sourov Regular Member • Posts: 304
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Hike Pics wrote:

About 30 years ago I worked for about 3 years extensively on a " monster grain" project. I worked with Fuji 400, Fuji 1600 and Tri-X 400.....and pushing the heck out of it! I was working at a photo lab and was fortunate to be able to talk to our Kodak rep and get a few rolls of TMZ 3200 when it first came out. After a LOT of shooting and different developing experiments I settled on pushing it to 25,000 using Edwal FG7 1:15 at 85° for 20 minutes. However, because the slightest under/over exposure in the field could cause problems I had to bracket a bit when shooting.

I also started shooting Kodak EES P800/1600, pushing it to 25,000 as well, and printing it with a brand new Kodak Laser Printer. That made things even more grainy!

I was blessed with being able to show my work for a month at an art gallery at a private school in town. I remember talking with the art director beforehand and him say " Please, please.....no Ansel Adams type photos. That's all we get these days". Ha.....no problem!

After the show, I started working with a Pentax 110 camera set. That was getting me real excited until our new digital department guy said he could get the same look with his computer. I went home, packed up all my project in boxes and never messed with it again.

Just a few...

TMX 3200 > 25,000

P800/1600 > 25,000

I might make a post soon with a few more images and info.

These images are extremely beautiful.

Thanks for sharing.

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Sourov Deb

Autonerd Senior Member • Posts: 2,989
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Very cool. That is some serious contrast!

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PerTulip Senior Member • Posts: 1,768
Re: How to Shoot With Kodak TMax P3200 at 6400 or More With Xtol?

Sourov wrote:

....

Thank you.

1) Stick to the films data sheet. Push/pull is covered there.

2) A very good resource is the "Massive Dev Chart". If a film/developer/ISO-combination isn't there....it doesn't exist. For TMax 3200:https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=Kodak+TMax+P3200%25&Developer=Xtol%25&mdc=Search&TempUnits=C&TimeUnits=D

3) After 1 and/or 2: understand what developer/times do and experiment.

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