Thoughts on the M11

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
SUPER-ELMAR
SUPER-ELMAR Senior Member • Posts: 1,027
Re: Thoughts on the M11

SrMi wrote:

SUPER-ELMAR wrote:

Is the drop-out battery in the M11 the same battery as the Q2? That would be very convenient.

M11's battery:

Maybe that ^ is the battery for the SL3 too

Actually that is lower capacity than the SL2 and lower voltage.  Would not fare well with power hungry L-mount gear.

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Ricoh GR III Olympus OM-D E-M1X Hasselblad X1D II 50C Leica M11 OM-1 +8 more
Foskito
Foskito Contributing Member • Posts: 857
Re: Thoughts on the M11

The M262 body is aluminum, not brass and so far no one complains about it. As I said months ago in the Leica forum, the only upgrade we can be 100% sure will be the price tag. My bet $10-11000 which is crazy.
My humble M8 and M9P still do their job as intended, no need to side-grade!!

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Jipster Junior Member • Posts: 41
Re: Thoughts on the M11

$8,499

Foskito
Foskito Contributing Member • Posts: 857
Re: Thoughts on the M11
3

Jipster wrote:

$8,499

Plus taxes...

Plus the new batteries...

Plus the high-grade leather case...

Will be close to $11,000. But anyone willing to pay that sum won't really care for a thousand more or a thousand less.

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SrMi
SrMi Veteran Member • Posts: 3,284
Re: Thoughts on the M11

SUPER-ELMAR wrote:

SrMi wrote:

SUPER-ELMAR wrote:

Is the drop-out battery in the M11 the same battery as the Q2? That would be very convenient.

M11's battery:

Maybe that ^ is the battery for the SL3 too

Actually that is lower capacity than the SL2 and lower voltage. Would not fare well with power hungry L-mount gear.

The SD card of M11 is inside the battery slot. Hence the overhang. It is not needed for SL2.

VfxByArt Regular Member • Posts: 447
Re: Thoughts on the M11
2

Swordman wrote:

What do you guys think of the upcoming M11?

So far, we know that it doesn’t have a removable bottom plate and it doesn’t use any brass. I feel those things are fundamental to the M experience.

One thing I would’ve like to have seen is a return to using sapphire crystal for the LCD screen, but I don’t think that’s ever coming back.

Swordman wrote:

What do you guys think of the upcoming M11?

So far, we know that it doesn’t have a removable bottom plate and it doesn’t use any brass. I feel those things are fundamental to the M experience.

One thing I would’ve like to have seen is a return to using sapphire crystal for the LCD screen, but I don’t think that’s ever coming back.

I shoot fuji bodies with leica M glass.

leica needs to take a page from fuji’s book. They have an extended dynamic range called DR400 mode.

The dr400 mode, in short, distributes the exposure more evenly thru the exposure of the images, removing the necessity of underexposing for highlights. It does this by requiring you to shoot at iso 640 or higher. This allows the camera to underexpose the hi lights of an image while boosting the mid tones and shadows…. basically what you eventually do in post if you underexposed your images. It does all of these calculations prior to the analog to digital conversion, so it works in RAW!

To find out about this technique, check out Pal2tech video on this mode in detail:

https://youtu.be/RjjCa73XxsY

Whats great about this mode is that you no longer are required to underexpose your images to retain hi lights… something that generates, often, underexposed jpgs. It uses the computer in your camera as it should be used. As a photographer, you’re not supposed to alter your photography because digital sensor tech is bad at retaining highlights. You ALTER the tech to conform how you shoot for the scenes. Fuji dr400 mode does this.

For additional street photography tips, I make sure to get it right in camera. This allows for immediate use as jpgs (I shoot raw + jpg). I uses a -4 on sharpness and and -2 on the highlight and shadow tone curves. This LOWERS the contrast on the jpg, allowing me to add contrast in an iOS photo app. I use MaxCurves to do that as it allows for sophisticated curves to be used discreetly as highlight, midrange and shadow tone curves to tweak the image.

Losing the brass, bottom plate etc on the M is kinda pointless. So is hyper resolution. My recommendation?

1) offer a 25mp and 40mp option. For the street photographer, 25mp is economical, allows for dynamic range extension, and lower processor overhead.

2) updated, lag free vizoflex that is 5k. For those who want f.95 precision focus and leverage mirrorless tech for street photography. Do this instead of getting rid of the bottom plate and brass.

3) newer maestro processor mated to a backlit stack sensor. Do that before upping the rez. Thats what fuji did from the the xt2- xt3. Same megapixels, 4x the processing speed. Make Leicas take photos at the speed of film again.

4) dynamic range. Spoke about this earlier with fuji dr400 mode, something I shoot exclusively in. The randomness of street photography necessitates this flexibility. Exposing fir highlights is a recipe for dark useless jpgs. Theres a computer in the camera, use it! Fuji proved it with their dr400 mode. I never worry about hi lights. Just composition and light.

5) bring back ala carte and custom engraving

6) continue the monochrome tradition.

digital Rot is the same in Leicas as is with any other camera. Removing the brass and bottom plate brings it closer to digital rot when you first open the camera box.

thx for reading this!

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Mike2019 Contributing Member • Posts: 888
Re: Thoughts on the M11
1

Foskito wrote:

Jipster wrote:

$8,499

Plus taxes...

Plus the new batteries...

Plus the high-grade leather case...

Will be close to $11,000. But anyone willing to pay that sum won't really care for a thousand more or a thousand less.

Good points.

SrMi
SrMi Veteran Member • Posts: 3,284
Re: Thoughts on the M11

VfxByArt wrote:

Swordman wrote:

What do you guys think of the upcoming M11?

So far, we know that it doesn’t have a removable bottom plate and it doesn’t use any brass. I feel those things are fundamental to the M experience.

One thing I would’ve like to have seen is a return to using sapphire crystal for the LCD screen, but I don’t think that’s ever coming back.

Swordman wrote:

What do you guys think of the upcoming M11?

So far, we know that it doesn’t have a removable bottom plate and it doesn’t use any brass. I feel those things are fundamental to the M experience.

One thing I would’ve like to have seen is a return to using sapphire crystal for the LCD screen, but I don’t think that’s ever coming back.

I shoot fuji bodies with leica M glass.

leica needs to take a page from fuji’s book. They have an extended dynamic range called DR400 mode.

The dr400 mode, in short, distributes the exposure more evenly thru the exposure of the images, removing the necessity of underexposing for highlights. It does this by requiring you to shoot at iso 640 or higher. This allows the camera to underexpose the hi lights of an image while boosting the mid tones and shadows…. basically what you eventually do in post if you underexposed your images. It does all of these calculations prior to the analog to digital conversion, so it works in RAW!

To find out about this technique, check out Pal2tech video on this mode in detail:

https://youtu.be/RjjCa73XxsY

Whats great about this mode is that you no longer are required to underexpose your images to retain hi lights… something that generates, often, underexposed jpgs. It uses the computer in your camera as it should be used. As a photographer, you’re not supposed to alter your photography because digital sensor tech is bad at retaining highlights. You ALTER the tech to conform how you shoot for the scenes. Fuji dr400 mode does this.

For additional street photography tips, I make sure to get it right in camera. This allows for immediate use as jpgs (I shoot raw + jpg). I uses a -4 on sharpness and and -2 on the highlight and shadow tone curves. This LOWERS the contrast on the jpg, allowing me to add contrast in an iOS photo app. I use MaxCurves to do that as it allows for sophisticated curves to be used discreetly as highlight, midrange and shadow tone curves to tweak the image.

Losing the brass, bottom plate etc on the M is kinda pointless. So is hyper resolution. My recommendation?

1) offer a 25mp and 40mp option. For the street photographer, 25mp is economical, allows for dynamic range extension, and lower processor overhead.

2) updated, lag free vizoflex that is 5k. For those who want f.95 precision focus and leverage mirrorless tech for street photography. Do this instead of getting rid of the bottom plate and brass.

3) newer maestro processor mated to a backlit stack sensor. Do that before upping the rez. Thats what fuji did from the the xt2- xt3. Same megapixels, 4x the processing speed. Make Leicas take photos at the speed of film again.

4) dynamic range. Spoke about this earlier with fuji dr400 mode, something I shoot exclusively in. The randomness of street photography necessitates this flexibility. Exposing fir highlights is a recipe for dark useless jpgs. Theres a computer in the camera, use it! Fuji proved it with their dr400 mode. I never worry about hi lights. Just composition and light.

5) bring back ala carte and custom engraving

6) continue the monochrome tradition.

digital Rot is the same in Leicas as is with any other camera. Removing the brass and bottom plate brings it closer to digital rot when you first open the camera box.

thx for reading this!

I never use %DRxxx mode on my Fujis (and similar settings on Nikons), and I do not recommend it for raw shooting. Rico Pfirstinger recently described a somewhat helpful scenario where using %DRxxx helps keep the EVF and final image bright enough to evaluate the scene when heavily 'underexposing' to preserve highlights. I prefer to have more control over what my camera is doing. However, it can be helpful in JPGs.

The point of Leica is to offer only the most essential functionality. IMO, the shorter the manual, the better designed a system is.

What is hyper resolution?

How does 25MP allow for "dynamic range extension"?

The higher the EVF resolution, the more power it draws. The rumored +3k EVF resolution is a good compromise, though I find the resolution a less critical component in EVF quality (refresh rate, contrast, colors, no flickering are more important).

What is digital rot in the context of keeping the removable bottom plate?

eliehbk Senior Member • Posts: 2,489
Re: Thoughts on the M11

10k. It was said on Leica Rumors.

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eliehbk Senior Member • Posts: 2,489
Re: Thoughts on the M11

Good points. I use all my M glass with a Fuji GFX50sii. I enjoy it more than on my M10R, abei with some vignetting in some cases.

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Rodrigue Zahr
Rodrigue Zahr Veteran Member • Posts: 5,341
Re: Thoughts on the M11
2

Bags27 wrote:

Massive, massive discussion of this over on the Leica Users Forum. There are a number of different themes. One is the physical camera, including the end of the bottom plate. Another is the sensor, which apparently is going to have three separate pixel counts modes. Another is a possible change in color and image quality. At least one person who has handled it (and now actually owns it, but is embargoed from giving details) implies that it might (he's intentionally vague) be more a reference to the IQ of the M9.

I personally shoot only film these days (except for my Foveon Merrills), but if the M11 produced images similar to the Leica S (closest thing to the M9, IMO), I would be a buyer.

I don't mind much he physical changes even though I would have preferred to remain the same especially bras... If the source you're mentioning is accurate about IQ being similar to M9's then this is a very good thing.

We should not forget though that similar feedbacks were said about the M10 being also similar yo the M9 rather than the M240.

We have to wait to see how different / better the M11 is compared to the M10, it got to be night and day in order to justifies it's rumored 10,000$ price tag!

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Rodrigue Zahr
Rodrigue Zahr Veteran Member • Posts: 5,341
Re: Thoughts on the M11
3

Foskito wrote:

The M262 body is aluminum, not brass and so far no one complains about it. As I said months ago in the Leica forum, the only upgrade we can be 100% sure will be the price tag. My bet $10-11000 which is crazy.
My humble M8 and M9P still do their job as intended, no need to side-grade!!

My M9 is doing so greta too. Now it may be a good time to add the M8 and M10.

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eliehbk Senior Member • Posts: 2,489
Re: Thoughts on the M11
1

Good to hear from you! Hope all is well with you and the family.

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Mike2019 Contributing Member • Posts: 888
Re: Thoughts on the M11

eliehbk wrote:

Good points. I use all my M glass with a Fuji GFX50sii. I enjoy it more than on my M10R, abei with some vignetting in some cases.

Show us some samples, if you can.

Which adaptor do you use?

eliehbk Senior Member • Posts: 2,489
Re: Thoughts on the M11

Cheap Ttartisan adapter

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Mike2019 Contributing Member • Posts: 888
Re: Thoughts on the M11

Thank you!

VfxByArt Regular Member • Posts: 447
Re: Thoughts on the M11

I never use %DRxxx mode on my Fujis (and similar settings on Nikons), and I do not recommend it for raw shooting.

Why?  part of DR 400' feature is that the underexposing of highlights and gaining up of midtones and blacks happens BEFORE the D to A conversion RW.  Resulting in this gag working in RAW too!

Rico Pfirstinger recently described a somewhat helpful scenario where using %DRxxx helps keep the EVF and final image bright enough to evaluate the scene when heavily 'underexposing' to preserve highlights.

Uh, no.  Fuji has specific feature called exposure simulation on/off to do that that DOES NOT affect your final image.

Altering an image recording mode so you can see better... again, fuji has the exposure simulator.

I prefer to have more control over what my camera is doing. However, it can be helpful in JPGs.

With DR 400 I have very specific control of what my camera is doing, and it immediately shows up on my jpg as a correctly expose image.

"Exposing for highlights", giving you dark and useless OOC JPG AND adding that extra step to EACH IMAGE , i.e. bring up the shadow, bringing down the highlights. Make sense to have the computer in the camera doing it at ingest rather than AFTER in post to EACH image.

The point of Leica is to offer only the most essential functionality. IMO, the shorter the manual, the better designed a system is.

Agreed.  But its an underwhelming street digital camera because of its tendency to blow out highlights.  Shoot in noon sun, the hi lights in their face clips.  Shoot someone against a white wall, but expose for them, bye bye detail in wall.

I spontaneously shot a friend outside but still had the camera at 1600 from the night before Photo was 2.5 stops above.   I took the fuji file and converted it both in DR400 mode and DR100.   You can change it after the fact assuming you shot at iso 640 or higher. The dr 100 image wa blown out, unrecoverable.  The same image but converted to DR 400 was not just salvageable.  but looked normal minus 2.5 stop!

What is hyper resolution?

IMHO anything over 30mp

How does 25MP allow for "dynamic range extension"?

25 mp allow for larger photo sensitive sensors than larger sensors.  Means less noise too,

The higher the EVF resolution, the more power it draws.

Yup, that is the mirrorless way

The rumored +3k EVF resolution is a good compromise, though I find the resolution a less critical component in EVF quality (refresh rate, contrast, colors, no flickering are more important).

3K evf is so 2018.  5K should be the norm. variable scan rate will save battery.

What is digital rot in the context of keeping the removable bottom plate?

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The Torontonian Contributing Member • Posts: 660
Re: Thoughts on the M11
4

VfxByArt wrote:

Agreed. But its an underwhelming street digital camera because of its tendency to blow out highlights. Shoot in noon sun, the hi lights in their face clips. Shoot someone against a white wall, but expose for them, bye bye detail in wall.

Then you're doing it wrong.

All Q2:

Jipster Junior Member • Posts: 41
Re: Thoughts on the M11

Indeed. Although one thing to note is that because the metering if off the curtain in the M (until apparently the M11), you need to adjust to the quirks of this kind of metering compared to a “standard” matrix metering. But I have found that I need to adjust to the metering of every camera I have owned. For a few months and learn what to do in various circumstances. Metering is an average if you don’t use spot metering, so … it’s average and you must use the exposure compensation appropriately. But I started photography with an old medium format camera from the 50s without any metering, so I am used to it.

The Torontonian Contributing Member • Posts: 660
Re: Thoughts on the M11

Jipster wrote:

But I started photography with an old medium format camera from the 50s without any metering, so I am used to it.

Heh.. That's how I started too. Old Spotmatic with a broken meter. Constantly referring to the little picture icons that were printed inside the old Kodak film boxes for proper-ish exposure.

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