What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

Started 6 months ago | Questions
stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

I occasionally observe wavy lines on photos with blue sky. They are visible only on raw files not on OOC jpgs or jpgs output from OV3. Anyone know what causes this effect ?

.ORF

.JPG

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ANSWER:
David
David Contributing Member • Posts: 534
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

stokey wrote:

I occasionally observe wavy lines on photos with blue sky. They are visible only on raw files not on OOC jpgs or jpgs output from OV3. Anyone know what causes this effect ?

.ORF

.JPG

Have you tried using the newer Olympus Workplace to read your RAW file and does it show the same effect with the correctly set color space for displaying ORF RAW for your display?  And in what color space did you set for your display which you use to view your RAW file?

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OP stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

David wrote:

Have you tried using the newer Olympus Workplace to read your RAW file and does it show the same effect with the correctly set color space for displaying ORF RAW for your display? And in what color space did you set for your display which you use to view your RAW file?

Same effect observed using Olympus Workspace v1.5 and also Irfanview, colour space is sRGB.

Bob

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19andrew47
19andrew47 Forum Pro • Posts: 43,160
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

Which lens? Panasonic lens will at times display banding on Olympus bodies. My 20 mm f/1.7 Panasonic does.

I see posterization in skies at times when the exposure is not correct at the time the image was taken. It does not resemble that banding though.

You have two bodies listed in your gear.  Does it occur for you with both bodies?

Andrew

RSTP14 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,479
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
4

My guess is the RAW is in AdobeRGB and you are displaying in sRGB, and the sRGB doesn't have the colors to display all the gradations in the sky. The in-camera JPEG would be sRGB.

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Roger

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pop2eye Forum Member • Posts: 73
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
5

stokey wrote:

David wrote:

Have you tried using the newer Olympus Workplace to read your RAW file and does it show the same effect with the correctly set color space for displaying ORF RAW for your display? And in what color space did you set for your display which you use to view your RAW file?

Same effect observed using Olympus Workspace v1.5 and also Irfanview, colour space is sRGB.

Bob

Irfanview does not actually open and process the ORF raw file. It only opens the small (usually 3200x2400), low-quality JPEG preview image that is embedded in the ORF file. I think the banding you are seeing is from the JPEG artifacts in the highly-compressed preview image.

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OP stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
1

19andrew47 wrote:

Which lens? Panasonic lens will at times display banding on Olympus bodies. My 20 mm f/1.7 Panasonic does.

I see posterization in skies at times when the exposure is not correct at the time the image was taken. It does not resemble that banding though.

You have two bodies listed in your gear. Does it occur for you with both bodies?

Andrew

In this instance E-M5.3 + P8-18, also seen with E-M10.2 + O9-18.

Bob

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OP stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

pop2eye wrote:

stokey wrote:

David wrote:

Have you tried using the newer Olympus Workplace to read your RAW file and does it show the same effect with the correctly set color space for displaying ORF RAW for your display? And in what color space did you set for your display which you use to view your RAW file?

Same effect observed using Olympus Workspace v1.5 and also Irfanview, colour space is sRGB.

Bob

Irfanview does not actually open and process the ORF raw file. It only opens the small (usually 3200x2400), low-quality JPEG preview image that is embedded in the ORF file. I think the banding you are seeing is from the JPEG artifacts in the highly-compressed preview image.

Could well be so, but what about OW and OV3 ?

Bob

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OP stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

RSTP14 wrote:

My guess is the RAW is in AdobeRGB and you are displaying in sRGB, and the sRGB doesn't have the colors to display all the gradations in the sky. The in-camera JPEG would be sRGB.

I wasn't aware that one could set the camera to apply different colour spaces to the RAW and JPEG.

Bob

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acfo Senior Member • Posts: 1,356
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
1

stokey wrote:

I occasionally observe wavy lines on photos with blue sky. They are visible only on raw files not on OOC jpgs or jpgs output from OV3. Anyone know what causes this effect ?

.ORF

.JPG

The effect is called Colour banding .

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drj3 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,379
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
3

stokey wrote:

pop2eye wrote:

stokey wrote:

David wrote:

Have you tried using the newer Olympus Workplace to read your RAW file and does it show the same effect with the correctly set color space for displaying ORF RAW for your display? And in what color space did you set for your display which you use to view your RAW file?

Same effect observed using Olympus Workspace v1.5 and also Irfanview, colour space is sRGB.

Bob

Irfanview does not actually open and process the ORF raw file. It only opens the small (usually 3200x2400), low-quality JPEG preview image that is embedded in the ORF file. I think the banding you are seeing is from the JPEG artifacts in the highly-compressed preview image.

Could well be so, but what about OW and OV3 ?

Bob

On OV3, Tools, Options, Advanced Settings, change RAW image Quality from Standard to Display at highest quality and see if it still occurs

on WS - do not check - Photos - Display RAW images with Priority on Speed and the actual display may depend on GPU on your computer.

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drj3

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selected answer This post was selected as the answer by the original poster.
19andrew47
19andrew47 Forum Pro • Posts: 43,160
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

In trying to look this up I came across some forum talk on banding caused by use of the electronic shutter modes.  Are these with the mechanical shutter?  The sample images I saw there had much smaller bands than displayed in your posted image so possibly not the same cause.

Andrew

OP stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
2

drj3 wrote:

On OV3, Tools, Options, Advanced Settings, change RAW image Quality from Standard to Display at highest quality and see if it still occurs

on WS - do not check - Photos - Display RAW images with Priority on Speed and the actual display may depend on GPU on your computer.

Thank you, that does the trick. You win 1st prize Mr drj3, but could you explain in a little more detail what WS does to produce this effect when "priority on speed" is selected ?

Bob

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pannumon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,888
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

stokey wrote:

drj3 wrote:

On OV3, Tools, Options, Advanced Settings, change RAW image Quality from Standard to Display at highest quality and see if it still occurs

on WS - do not check - Photos - Display RAW images with Priority on Speed and the actual display may depend on GPU on your computer.

Thank you, that does the trick. You win 1st prize Mr drj3, but could you explain in a little more detail what WS does to produce this effect when "priority on speed" is selected ?

I am pretty sure that when priority is on speed, it simply shows the low quality JPEG-file that is embedded to the raw file. This is much much faster than showing the actual raw image, which needs to be processed before it can be viewed.

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drj3 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,379
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

stokey wrote:

drj3 wrote:

On OV3, Tools, Options, Advanced Settings, change RAW image Quality from Standard to Display at highest quality and see if it still occurs

on WS - do not check - Photos - Display RAW images with Priority on Speed and the actual display may depend on GPU on your computer.

Thank you, that does the trick. You win 1st prize Mr drj3, but could you explain in a little more detail what WS does to produce this effect when "priority on speed" is selected ?

Bob

It is using a much lower resolution (imbedded jpeg) in order to speed the display when priority is set to speed.

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drj3

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 38,211
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?
1

stokey wrote:

RSTP14 wrote:

My guess is the RAW is in AdobeRGB and you are displaying in sRGB, and the sRGB doesn't have the colors to display all the gradations in the sky. The in-camera JPEG would be sRGB.

I wasn't aware that one could set the camera to apply different colour spaces to the RAW and JPEG.

Bob

Setting the colour space to sRGB or to Adobe RGB only has an effect on the camera jpeg. The raw file has no colour space but has the jpeg setting stored within its exif data. A raw converter may by default use that stored colour space setting, or the user can choose another colour space during the raw conversion.

Just for fun I opened a raw file (my camera jpegs are set for sRGB) and in Affinity Photo as an example I can choose any of 34 colour choices to use for output. Naturally the default is sRGB IEC61966-2.1 which I have to assume is the one found in the raw file exif data.

The Affinity help file says this...

About color space

Each output device, for example, your display or printer, is only capable of producing a certain range of colors. A color space is a specific implementation of the color model used to define the color gamut (i.e., the range of available color). For example, Adobe RGB, sRGB, Apple RGB, and so on, are all unique color spaces for the RGB color model. Different color spaces are also available for CMYK and Lab color models.

Each output device, for example, your display or printer, is only capable of producing a certain range of colors. A color space is a specific implementation of the color model used to define the color gamut (i.e., the range of available color). For example, sRGB, Apple RGB, and so on, are all unique color spaces for the RGB color model. Different color spaces are also available for CMYK and Lab color models.

In order for a device to know which color space to use, it looks at the assigned color profile. You can choose your color space by assigning a color profile to your document.

Which color space should I use?

Which color space you choose depends on what you're doing and the color model you're choosing to operate in.

If you're unsure of what color space to operate, it's advisable to stick with the default sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile if using the RGB color model.

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OP stokey Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

drj3 wrote:

stokey wrote:

drj3 wrote:

On OV3, Tools, Options, Advanced Settings, change RAW image Quality from Standard to Display at highest quality and see if it still occurs

on WS - do not check - Photos - Display RAW images with Priority on Speed and the actual display may depend on GPU on your computer.

Thank you, that does the trick. You win 1st prize Mr drj3, but could you explain in a little more detail what WS does to produce this effect when "priority on speed" is selected ?

Bob

It is using a much lower resolution (imbedded jpeg) in order to speed the display when priority is set to speed.

So I'm editing my photo based on viewing a very low resolution image ?

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 38,211
Re: What are these waves in the sky visible on some .ORFs ?

stokey wrote:

drj3 wrote:

stokey wrote:

drj3 wrote:

On OV3, Tools, Options, Advanced Settings, change RAW image Quality from Standard to Display at highest quality and see if it still occurs

on WS - do not check - Photos - Display RAW images with Priority on Speed and the actual display may depend on GPU on your computer.

Thank you, that does the trick. You win 1st prize Mr drj3, but could you explain in a little more detail what WS does to produce this effect when "priority on speed" is selected ?

Bob

It is using a much lower resolution (imbedded jpeg) in order to speed the display when priority is set to speed.

So I'm editing my photo based on viewing a very low resolution image ?

To speed up things, many programs default to initially showing that horrible embedded jpeg before they (slowly) process the real raw data and finally show that instead.

Hopefully when editing the raw file you are actually editing the raw file and when outputting the result it is the jpeg from the raw file.

The freebie FastStone Viewer by default uses the embedded jpeg simply for speed reasons, the user needs to change the Settings so that it uses the raw data instead.

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