Pentax DFA 21 2.4 . Sony G 20 1.8

Hi,

I'd like to discuss these two lenses with you. As someone who has been waiting over a decade for Pentax to release a fast wide, the DFA 21 was a cause for celebration and a slight bit of disappointment at the max aperture when it was announced. But I was fearing worse, f/4, so it was a relief as well.

Now I've read the review at Pentax Forums and... well I'm not exactly blown away by the performance. At 1429€ for an only moderately fast lens ... it's just a really fat pricetag IMO to only get great resolution in the center (I wanted this lens to be better/different than my FA*24!). Sure, the rendering is dreamy, and I'd probably have a lot of fun with this lens. But man they said it's also not even that great with flare, so it's not going to be like my DA15 in this respect, which is so fun to shoot into the sun etc. And they didn't even put their best AF motor in it. And no surprise, AF is slow.

Especially considering that the Sony 20 1.8 *is* sharp wide open. And weighs less. And costs 500€ less right now, and also has really nice, smooth bokeh... and I want to get into the Sony system for the exact reason that I would have a wide selection of excellent, truly fast wides and other lenses to choose from... I'm just really hesitant right now. 
If I consider that I can get an outstanding 85 1.8 for Sony at a fraction of the price and weight of the DFA* 85, too, and I get eye AF... forking out 1500 for the DFA 21 makes little sense. Depending on what lenses I buy, the savings will probably cover the entire price of an A7 III or more than half an A7 IV. The DFA 21 would be pure luxury.
I love shooting with my K1 II and this is the lens I've been waiting for. But the price is just really making me think. The Sony 20 G is a *full stop* faster and better in nearly every measurable way. The only things left are pixie dust and the experience of shooting through an optical finder. But it won't even be that bright because only f/2.4...Help!! Where's the flaw in this logic? Is there anyone in the world with both lenses who could compare?
Matt

I can’t help, but I can agree that I feel your dilemma.  Another thought, if only Pentax had included a manual aperture ring.  I would actually buy it right now if they had, for then I could adapt it to other systems.

KL Matt wrote:

Hi,

I'd like to discuss these two lenses with you. As someone who has been waiting over a decade for Pentax to release a fast wide, the DFA 21 was a cause for celebration and a slight bit of disappointment at the max aperture when it was announced. But I was fearing worse, f/4, so it was a relief as well.

Especially considering that the Sony 20 1.8 *is* sharp wide open. And weighs less. And costs 500€ less right now, and also has really nice, smooth bokeh... and I want to get into the Sony system for the exact reason that I would have a wide selection of excellent, truly fast wides and other lenses to choose from... I'm just really hesitant right now.

Pentax can't win this one. Why? Mainly because of two factors:

- ultra wide angle lenses are significantly more difficult to make for SLRs (because they need to leave space for the mirrors, thus they're heavily retrofocus designs). The D FA 21 Limited was never going to be as fast, as small and as "cheap" as the Sony.

- in pure Limited style, Pentax chose to go for special rendering rather than pure numerical performance. They actually made a special prototype just to fine-tune the bokeh; and my guess is that it added quite a bit on the development cost (and final price).

I'm fine with the first; f/2.4 is adequate, I'm actually glad this wasn't an f/1.4 D FA* (huge, expensive).

I'm undecided about the second point; I'll make up my mind after gathering some experience with the lens. Perhaps a higher degree of correction and a reasonably good bokeh would've been better received. Or not.

Where's the flaw in this logic? Is there anyone in the world with both lenses who could compare?
Matt

It's easy, really: do you want SLRs or mirrorless? If it's the former, you should find ways to get the gear that you want, perhaps at a slower pace. This is what I'm doing.

If you want to optimize cost/specs or whatever... but that's such a soul-less approach!

Alex

My two cents:

In the past two years, I've tried out two FF MILC systems.  First, I got the Panny S1R and "kit" lens, it one back after month.  It would've stayed, but the sensor was noisy and Af was nothing special - and I'm a Pentaxian saying that!

Then, I tried the Sony A7RIV. And I got all the nice lenses you need to start out.  Apart from a *somewhat* noisier file, it was pretty sweet as a tool.  I didn't like the images very much, except with my adapted Pentax glass.  If I shot more events, maybe I would've kept it - life is just easier with Sony.  But it isn't the life I want.

So, where does leave you?  I have no doubt the 21 Ltd will produce much more interesting images than Sony's optically perfect 20mm.  For me, "interesting" is still more important, though I was also taken aback by the PF review.  I'm not sure what I'll do.

In a sense, I agree with Pentax:  Look beyond the numbers, to decide the photographic experience you want. My best-selling print is a landscape taken with my 31 Limited; optical perfection is. nice to have, but it isn't everything.  And sometimes, it isn't enough.

Good luck!

Adam007 wrote:

My two cents:

In the past two years, I've tried out two FF MILC systems. First, I got the Panny S1R and "kit" lens, it one back after month. It would've stayed, but the sensor was noisy and Af was nothing special - and I'm a Pentaxian saying that!

Then, I tried the Sony A7RIV. And I got all the nice lenses you need to start out. Apart from a *somewhat* noisier file, it was pretty sweet as a tool. I didn't like the images very much, except with my adapted Pentax glass. If I shot more events, maybe I would've kept it - life is just easier with Sony. But it isn't the life I want.

So, where does leave you? I have no doubt the 21 Ltd will produce much more interesting images than Sony's optically perfect 20mm. For me, "interesting" is still more important, though I was also taken aback by the PF review. I'm not sure what I'll do.

In a sense, I agree with Pentax: Look beyond the numbers, to decide the photographic experience you want. My best-selling print is a landscape taken with my 31 Limited; optical perfection is. nice to have, but it isn't everything. And sometimes, it isn't enough.

Good luck!

Your best selling prints are not best selling because of the fact that the images were taken with the 31 ltd. I'm sure that if you had a decent lens and a decent modern camera you would have taken great images as well. It's far more about how you capture the moment than about the tiny differences in how lenses render the image.

I think that people talk about this "magic" of ltds due to brand loyalty, being fans of Pentax. Nothing wrong with that. But .. we should not be blinded by this either .. I think that if you would really compare different systems side by side you'd have hard time seeing a meaningful difference.

Don't take me wrong, I have all 3 ltds and I love the lenses .. mostly the build quality .. however I would not think that there are not better lenses out there. And the new 21mm is the same story. Great lens but as great as many other.

Best,

M

KL Matt wrote:

Now I've read the review at Pentax Forums and... well I'm not exactly blown away by the performance. At 1429€ for an only moderately fast lens ... it's just a really fat pricetag IMO to only get great resolution in the center (I wanted this lens to be better/different than my FA*24!). Sure, the rendering is dreamy, and I'd probably have a lot of fun with this lens. But man they said it's also not even that great with flare, so it's not going to be like my DA15 in this respect, which is so fun to shoot into the sun etc. And they didn't even put their best AF motor in it. And no surprise, AF is slow.

Especially considering that the Sony 20 1.8 *is* sharp wide open. And weighs less. And costs 500€ less right now, and also has really nice, smooth bokeh... and I want to get into the Sony system for the exact reason that I would have a wide selection of excellent, truly fast wides and other lenses to choose from... I'm just really hesitant right now.

Expectations for DSLR and MILC are a bit unfair. One must recognize that this Sony has great flare resistance as the DA 15, but doing the same for the K bodies is another challenge!

If I consider that I can get an outstanding 85 1.8 for Sony at a fraction of the price and weight of the DFA* 85, too, and I get eye AF... forking out 1500 for the DFA 21 makes little sense. Depending on what lenses I buy, the savings will probably cover the entire price of an A7 III or more than half an A7 IV. The DFA 21 would be pure luxury.
I love shooting with my K1 II and this is the lens I've been waiting for. But the price is just really making me think. The Sony 20 G is a *full stop* faster and better in nearly every measurable way. The only things left are pixie dust and the experience of shooting through an optical finder. But it won't even be that bright because only f/2.4...Help!! Where's the flaw in this logic? Is there anyone in the world with both lenses who could compare?
Matt

Pentax responded to the demand for higher end lenses and more "spiritual" lenses, so to say. The hype and the prices, are now for Pentax : last manufacturer sticking to true OVF without third party to share this small market. This lens is all about quality, design, rendering, style and handling, leaving the higher IQ pro lenses to the DFA* series. Maybe a DFA* 20mm will come next with greater expectations and higher price ? Who knows.

Sony on the over hand is going the other way, doing what we expected from Pentax a few decades ago: great affordable lenses to complement their GM lenses. It seems that they just forgot the M on this G 20mm f/1.8 and they had to sell it at this incredible price. Breaking the market with such lenses, bringing more people to the brand : the 85mm f/1.8 and 250-600mm are other strategic lenses to bring reluctant DSLR shooters to them!Their association with Tamron is also part of their success. Strange when we think about previous Pentax partnership with the same brand.

EVF is not yet as good with "entry level" bodies, but things are changing and brings other goodies indeed. I still keep my trusty K1 and K3 with older lenses for "pixie dust" as you call it. These brands complement each other well depending on your goals, if you can keep both.

Apart from that, I can't compare these lenses : I got a great deal for this 20mm, so I can't justify buying the pricier Limited for the K mount! Maybe one day, if I can borrow or rent one to feel how well it fares? On the other hand, putting a lightweight body on this little 20mm is just amazing.

If you ever add a Sony body to your stable, you should also have a look at the old a7Riii : coming from the K1 I sometime missed a few MP with the a7iii. Its AF and DR are already good: sweet spot for me. But the new a7iv, with state of the art AF if you need it, should be closer to what you're used to on your K1 with its 33 MP sensor.

Just in case, another point I found useful for a fair comparison between Pentax and Sony files is to give it a try with default DXO RAW processing for each brand as a starting point (pretty conservative); unfortunately the a7iv is not yet supported.

Tough choice indeed !

Best regards, Fred

PS: Another option to consider if you have some of the few Pentax lenses already compatible with the LA-KE1 adapter is to keep them and make good use of eye-AF. Convenient but maybe not the experience you expect.

Your best selling prints are not best selling because of the fact that the images were taken with the 31 ltd. I'm sure that if you had a decent lens and a decent modern camera you would have taken great images as well. It's far more about how you capture the moment than about the tiny differences in how lenses render the image.

I think that people talk about this "magic" of ltds due to brand loyalty, being fans of Pentax. Nothing wrong with that. But .. we should not be blinded by this either .. I think that if you would really compare different systems side by side you'd have hard time seeing a meaningful difference.

Don't take me wrong, I have all 3 ltds and I love the lenses .. mostly the build quality .. however I would not think that there are not better lenses out there. And the new 21mm is the same story. Great lens but as great as many other.

Best,

M

It's hard for me to believe that you could have the Limiteds and not agree that they render distinctively.  Whether you like it is up to you, but the Sony lenses are just different.  Perfect to a fault - which many people love.  I like it sometimes.

My print was in fact taken with the wrong FL, but the rendering of the 31 is such that I got away with cropping it.   I can think of other decent lenses I have that would've done he same job, and several that wouldn't.  They all have unique signatures - which, again, is important to some people but not others.

KL Matt wrote:

and I want to get into the Sony system for the exact reason that I would have a wide selection of excellent, truly fast wides and other lenses to choose from... I'm just really hesitant right now.
If I consider that I can get an outstanding 85 1.8 for Sony at a fraction of the price and weight of the DFA* 85, too, and I get eye AF... forking out 1500 for the DFA 21 makes little sense. Depending on what lenses I buy, the savings will probably cover the entire price of an A7 III or more than half an A7 IV.

There are other fast wide lenses available, in systems with (IMHO) better UI/ergo. E.g. Sigma has a great 1.4/20 Art available in several DSLR- and mirrorless-mounts for aound 900 EUR/USD/... And a moderately fast 85 is also not unique to Sony.

Where's the flaw in this logic?

You bring only one lens from one other system into the comparison.

The question is: How happy are you overall with your Pentax-setup? Switching systems, or adding another system, is usually a costly affair, especially when you buy new.

Did you have a look at the Samyang 1.8/20, which is available in K-mount? (yes, its manual focus, but depending on your use, this may or may not be a problem)

flektogon wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Your reasons may well be valid for you, however I can't use the Sony on my Pentax so despite it being so good I'll have to look elsewhere. That said I'm still not sold on the 21Ltd even though it will be a very nice lens and I'll stick with my old but very good for what it is good at Sigma 24mm F1.8 EX DG. I still have a gap between 15mm and 24mm on FF that doesn't need to be filled but if the right lens comes along it can be filled.

Well, you could mount such a Sony lens on your Sony camera. The question is not "if" but rather "when" you have such a (or similar MILC) camera. Next year? In the next 10 years? In the next 20 years?

Contrary to popular opinion, buying Sony cameras is not unavoidable.

Alex

the've only tested one (or two?) copy of the lens so there is a chance you might end up with one sharp wide open, similar as with the da 15/4 (with a sweet spot on the focus ring where things get sharp very nicely with a wide depth of field)

or maybe with a lemon..who knows
to me it seems like a very nice lens, with vignetting being the only "compromise" in the design, while keeping the small dimensions at the same time

flektogon wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

flektogon wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Your reasons may well be valid for you, however I can't use the Sony on my Pentax so despite it being so good I'll have to look elsewhere. That said I'm still not sold on the 21Ltd even though it will be a very nice lens and I'll stick with my old but very good for what it is good at Sigma 24mm F1.8 EX DG. I still have a gap between 15mm and 24mm on FF that doesn't need to be filled but if the right lens comes along it can be filled.

Well, you could mount such a Sony lens on your Sony camera. The question is not "if" but rather "when" you have such a (or similar MILC) camera. Next year? In the next 10 years? In the next 20 years?

Contrary to popular opinion, buying Sony cameras is not unavoidable.

Alex

Oh yes, Sony camera would be my last choice. Doesn't matter how advanced are their cameras (and as I am very conservative I dislike their "advances" ), in addition they are the worst cameras from the ergonomy point of view! Canon, Nikon, Panasonic can make far friendlier cameras! But yes, the Pentax ergonomics stands above all.

Me too i will never buy a Sony camera. It has the worst ergonomics and the ugly bodies besides the very ugly Canon RP.

DFA 21mm LTD is my dream lens for street photography. Sharpness is not my main factor to buy a lens it is only the rendering so iam love Pentax and stick with it.

-- hide signature --

Regards,
Peter

(meant to be for a different thread)

I went in detail through the sample images in the DFA 21mm review at the PF and some are beautiful but some are quite disappointing. .. It's a pity that there was no comparison to DFA 15-30/2.8.

Some images look to me like if the lens was decentered:
https://themotec1.netfirms.com/Users/Hosted/cdn/carl/DFA%2021/Samples/bdery/9.jpg (sharper on the right then on the left)

It also looks to me like there is a lot of chromatic aberration (even at higher aperture like 5.6) and purple fringing.
On the other hand .. I don't see a problem with flare.

Most bokeh is very nice, however, some images show "double line" bokeh.

https://themotec1.netfirms.com/Users/Hosted/cdn/carl/DFA%2021/Samples/x-country/1.jpg

Well .. I just ordered the lens .. let's see .. I'll post some images next week once it arrives.

Best,

M

Lothman wrote:

zakaria wrote:

flektogon wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

flektogon wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Your reasons may well be valid for you, however I can't use the Sony on my Pentax so despite it being so good I'll have to look elsewhere. That said I'm still not sold on the 21Ltd even though it will be a very nice lens and I'll stick with my old but very good for what it is good at Sigma 24mm F1.8 EX DG. I still have a gap between 15mm and 24mm on FF that doesn't need to be filled but if the right lens comes along it can be filled.

Well, you could mount such a Sony lens on your Sony camera. The question is not "if" but rather "when" you have such a (or similar MILC) camera. Next year? In the next 10 years? In the next 20 years?

Contrary to popular opinion, buying Sony cameras is not unavoidable.

Alex

Oh yes, Sony camera would be my last choice. Doesn't matter how advanced are their cameras (and as I am very conservative I dislike their "advances" ), in addition they are the worst cameras from the ergonomy point of view! Canon, Nikon, Panasonic can make far friendlier cameras! But yes, the Pentax ergonomics stands above all.

Me too i will never buy a Sony camera. It has the worst ergonomics and the ugly bodies besides the very ugly Canon RP.

I moved from Pentax to Sony years ago a did not regret it for a second. I have no clue what you are talking of. All brands are different and each manufacturer has its own philosophy of camera layout. The differences between manufacturers are so small that they for sure do not limit the photographer.

I would agree in general .. although .. I have a6300 and I don't like it that much. Many things that one can do so easily with Pentax can't be done. But I bet that the newest higher end bodies are fine (any brand).

When you take a foreign camera in the shop it will feel "non-ergonomic" because you are not used to. With the custom buttons you can configure a Sony so that you never have to got to menus, but that may take an afternoon. Same with the K3iii you find several threads here of people complaining that this camera is difficult to operate. And you find those who were able/willing to adopt and now love their K3iii.

DFA 21mm LTD is my dream lens for street photography. Sharpness is not my main factor to buy a lens it is only the rendering so iam love Pentax and stick with it.

That's the problem of Pentax, limited lens selection and no third party support with modern AF lenses. So bugs like bad corner sharpness of expensive lenses are talked nice and are called "the only rendering" ;-).

It would be fun to have a bunch of pics at same focal lengths and let folks judge whether the can find out which manufacturer it was taken and if the can find their "brand rendering". I believe this would be more guessing than identifying.

I agree with this .. there is many great lenses out there. I got to Pentax 20 years ago because of lenses .. and very reasonable prices.

But .. I am a bit afraid that Pentax is just too small to keep developing great modern lenses that are fast, light, high-resolving, yet well corrected and fast focusing. In addition, long flange distance means that they'll have disadvantage in wide-angle lenses.

At the end of the day though .. it is about how much you enjoy shooting and the absolute quality of a lens is not what makes a beautiful image. For me, the Ltds are just enjoyable to use, greatly made and I don't mind that they are not optically perfect.

Lothman wrote:

zakaria wrote:

Me too i will never buy a Sony camera. It has the worst ergonomics and the ugly bodies besides the very ugly Canon RP.

I moved from Pentax to Sony years ago a did not regret it for a second.

Good for you.

I have no clue what you are talking of.

But I do have more than a clue what he's talking about: I agree about the ergonomics (less about the ugliness though, the A7 series at least looks fine IMO).

All brands are different and each manufacturer has its own philosophy of camera layout. The differences between manufacturers are so small that they for sure do not limit the photographer.

We can usually work around a camera's interface and ergonomics, but why make things more unpleasant?

A Sony body... is an amazing piece of engineering; but it's optimized more for cost and simplicity rather than ergonomics (thus the mount fiasco and light leaks). I'm not dissing Sony for that; dissing other brands is something I thoroughly avoid out of respect of their users. It's to understand that we have reasons to prefer Pentax.

DFA 21mm LTD is my dream lens for street photography. Sharpness is not my main factor to buy a lens it is only the rendering so iam love Pentax and stick with it.

That's the problem of Pentax, limited lens selection and no third party support with modern AF lenses. So bugs like bad corner sharpness of expensive lenses are talked nice and are called "the only rendering" ;-).

None of my Pentax lenses have bad corners, though. Are you sure you're familiar with these modern options? If you left Pentax a while ago...

It would be fun to have a bunch of pics at same focal lengths and let folks judge whether the can find out which manufacturer it was taken and if the can find their "brand rendering". I believe this would be more guessing than identifying.

You could try to reproduce the D FA 21mm's look by shooting close-up pictures with your Sony 20mm, if you have it.

Alex