The new FFF has some stiff competition

Hi do you have actual comparison images?  I would love to see them.

dellaaa wrote:

Hi do you have actual comparison images? I would love to see them.

Here's DPR's:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/8

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd1/17

danski0224 wrote:

dellaaa wrote:

Hi do you have actual comparison images? I would love to see them.

I have personal experience with those cameras, and in my opinion, they are pretty much equal as far as perceived details are concerned.

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The Quattro or Merrill sensor can give the 50 mp Canon a run for the money, and they all have limitations.

The Sigma cameras (not the Bayer ones), have all been crop sensors. A "full frame Foveon" would require the best lenses for best results.

Not sure I understand that - unless it's referring to lens corner performance.

I comment because late Sigma/Foveon sensors are 5um or less, and the last info for the "FFF" was over 6um ...

danski0224 wrote:

Yes, lens corner performance.

This was a bad issue with the SD1 Merrill, especially apparent with non-Sigma adapted lenses. The ray angle at the corners played havoc with the stacked Foveon architecture in that sensor.

Nowadays, with the L mount consortium, users can swap lenses from other brands and of course adapt Leica M mount lenses. The consensus seems to be that Leica M lenses do worse in the corners than native L mount lenses, because of ray angle, even though at this point all the L mount sensors are Bayer.

This issue is going to be much worse with full-frame short-flange mirrorless systems such as the L mount, compared to the long flange SA mount. And the APS-C Merrill sensor did poorly even with the long flange mount.

This alone could kill the idea of a full frame Foveon.

Note that the sd Quattro did much better in this area. It still displayed unwelcome coloration across the frame but the magnitude of the coloration was small. I was able to look the other way...

Older bodies such as the SD15 did much better, but the sensors were smaller than APS-C by a small amount, and the pixel pitch was coarser, and the pixels themselves were more resistant to the shadowing color cast that dominated Merrill images when adapted lenses were tried.

At least, that's been my experience.

PS: It's interesting that the fp L can be manually set up to correct this sort of thing. So it must be a factor with high resolution Bayer sensors also. I haven't found it necessary to use this feature so far. I'm using several completely manual L-mount lenses, and an adapted Leica M mount lens.

Roger wrote:

dellaaa wrote:

Greetings dellaaa and all the Sigma gang

I do not think this is a troll question. It's good to rehash things over from time to time.

I was just thinking of the recent crop of 60MP + cameras that will be coming out soon (Leica fpL)

Leica FL what's that ?

alonng with the constant postponement of the FFF

Ya, it makes one wonder doesn't it.

and it dawned on me is it possible that FFF will not be able to compete with these new high MP Bayer cameras,

Ya, I believe it could be done if done right, but maybe not a FF Foveon, but a crop of 1.2 or 1.3.

hence the reason for the delay and eventual scrapping of the project?

If they scrap the project it won't be because of the new mp Bayer sensors, it will because of declining sales do to Cell Phones and the declining market. There will be a lot of changes/companies going down do to cell phones and the every shrinking market demand. One person predicted that with in the next few years only Canon, Sony and maybe Nikon will be left standing.

Sigma announced they scrapped the initial attempt at the FFF and restarted from scratch.

Do to production issues. The company that was suppose to make the sensor couldn't do the design.

They then introduce a 60 MP Bayer camera.

Yaaaaaa, go figure. Why? I said in the past or asked the question would you buy a Sigma with a Bayer sensor? I said no, but I did, ya, what can I say. The FP has excellent IQ, but it's no Foveon.

Maybe after some in depth analysis, Sigma concluded that the Foveon advantage is no longer that big an advantage and the much more versatile 60M Bayer sensors have put the final nail in the coffin.

No I don't think so or I hope not. My SD1M and my SDQ-H will match or beat a 60 mp Bayer sensor. The SD1m has way more depth.

Let's face it, Foveon cameras are a niche camera in a niche camera market.

Yes they are that's why they need to produce the new Foveon if they have the resources.

In their day they were outstanding and still produce beautiful images under very limited conditions.

Yes they were and still are outstanding, but the cameras come up short. Why didn't they put live view in the SD1M? Like the Nikon D700 or the D600?

As for limited conditions like what? I shoot mine in any conditions.

I shoot my Fuji XPro2 effortless at very high ISOs with great results, something impossible with my SDQ and SD1.

How high? I shoot my SD1M and my SDQ-H from ISO 200-6400 without issues.

Sadly, unless there is a huge breakthrough I'm thinking we have seen the end of Foveon.

You maybe right, but I hope your wrong or I'm sure your wrong. We'll have to see something soon or Sigma will be back to being just a lens company.

Huh? So the fp line doesn't qualify Sigma to continue being called a camera company? BTW, they ARE still selling the SD Quattro and all four different models of the dp Quattros, or did you just forget about those cameras that Sigma makes?

What do you think?

I think I want an SD with live view, and a Foveon, weather sealed with on the spot, fast AF, or an FP with a Foveon EVF, tilt screen, PC sync, or hot shoe with Live view, fast on the spot AF, weather sealed. If they do another Bayer sensor camera then they are the same as the rest, not different. Same sensor = the same results/look is all the same, no difference, same PP by the same software producing the same boring. look. I wish the SDQ-H didn't have the snout, and didn't do that micro focusing thing. Why didn't Sigma put a pop up flash and a EVF on the DPM series?

Well there you have it. If I don't see something soon I'm not sure what I'll do

I know what you will do Roger . . . wait some more!

Be safe have fun

Roger J.

danski0224 wrote:

"As to the main thread, the FFF must have at least 30MP x3 to compete with the 50MP+ Bayers."

The sdQ (not H) and the SD1M compare very favorably to a Canon 5DSR. The Sigma sensor images both enlarge better than a Bayer based image.

A "30 mp" Foveon isn't needed to beat "50 mp" Bayer.

I think it is, but I think Sigma made their announcement about the 60 MP Foveon sensor before Sony made the A7r IV, and at the time of the Sigma FFF announcement the main competitors were Nikon D850, with a 45 MP sensor, Panasonic S1R with a 47 MP sensor, Sony A7r III, with a 42 MP sensor, and of course the old Canon 5Dsr, with its 50 MP sensor. Against those a 20 MP per layer full-frame Foveon sensor could probably hold its own just fine.

Recent high-resolution full-frame cameras that have come on the market are the Canon R5, with a 45 MP sensor, the Sony A1, with a 50 MP sensor, and the brand new Nikon Z9, which has a 45 MP sensor. I think the 20 MP per layer FFF will hold its own against the sensors in those new camera. It does appear as if the megapixel race is over.

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Moments in Time, a work in progress.... https://www.flickr.com/gp/142423236@N08/965cs3

The Sigma's shots hold up very well indeed.  I am surprised at how good the high res shots look, mine generally dont look as good.

danski0224 wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

It does appear as if the megapixel race is over.

I would suspect that manufacturing limitations are in play, at least for something that can be mass produced in a reasonably economical fashion.

So, now that MP counts are all about the same, perhaps the practice of using MP as an incorrect metric of quality will soon fade away ...

xpatUSA wrote:

danski0224 wrote:

So, now that MP counts are all about the same, perhaps the practice of using MP as an incorrect metric of quality will soon fade away ...

… Hopefully.