Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

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dperez Regular Member • Posts: 492
Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

Its time to upgrade the 6-year-old system.  With Photoshop Lightroom Classic, Topaz, Aurora, Helicon Focus and all the "normal" general stuff, things are bogging down.

I went over to Puget Systems, and they're very impressed with the I7-12900 compared to the AMD 5950X.  I don't have a HUGE preference, but in general I'd be more likely to put together an Intel system unless there are advantages to the AMD.

I'll be using a full tower case because I need the front slots for removable hard drive carriers, want lots of space for the ATX board and cooler and I'd like as many front side USB3 ports as possible.  I'd strongly prefer NOT to have to water cool, and I've got a Noctua NH-D15 that I believe is usable on the 12900 (I'm checking on the necessary adapter).  My current system has been overclocked for the last 6 years, so I'm sure the new one will also be.

I'm going to put in 64GB of DDR5 memory (if I use the 12900, or 64GB of DDR4 with the AMD), and an NVMe, 1TB SSD for the O/S, catalogs, cache, and general stuff.  Images live on a 4TB SSD and I've already got the EVGA 850W PS. GPU is an AMD 5700XT, which should be fine 'til the graphics card stupidity abates - if it ever does.

This is NOT going to be a gaming system, though there may occasionally be a bit of gaming.  I'm looking to optimize speed and efficiency across the board when doing large-ish image processing - things like a 10-12 D850 image panos, faster processing in tools like Denoise AI and AI Sharpen.  And, of course faster processing across the board in Lightroom, Photoshop and everything else.  Video is a possibility so I'll want to be able to handle that well too.

SO...  Looking at cost, performance, overclocking, reliability, etc - am I better with the Intel I9-12900KF or the AMD Ryzen 5950X?  And why?

Motherboards for the Intel CPU seem to fall into 2 camps - expensive, like the $600 ASUS ROG Hero that are full of tweaks for gaming, and less expensive but I suspect not as capable $300 motherboards.  Is there a motherboard that would be optimal for this type of application that's extremely capable, has easy, great overclocking, AND is cost effective or do I just shut up and buy the ASUS hero and be done with it?

Same question for the AMD...  What are the great options for motherboards for this type of setup?  Since the 5950X is limited to DDR4 memory I presume overall it'd be cheaper to build, but not as capable as the Intel (according to Puget).  And is there a really good tower cooler for the AMD?  'Cause again, I'd rather NOT have to mess with water cooling.

The budget isn't unlimited, but neither is it so constrained that I want to end up with a disappointing system...  Thoughts?

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CBR1100XX Senior Member • Posts: 1,415
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards
2

Noctua will send you adapters for AMD AM4 or the new Intel platform so that shouldn't be an issue. If you still have the NHD15 box I'd look to see because you might have the AMD hardware already since it's been the same since 2016.

In both cases I'd actually give a lot of thought to the CPU's 1 level lower.

With AMD the 5900X is actually faster in some workloads. Under the articles section Puget breaks everything down in a lot of detail in their charts so if this is the case or the difference in the areas you use is small enough that could be a good place to save money. As for motherboards if you need a lot of connectivity there are ~200 dollar high quality X570 boards with good VRM's. And honestly a NHD15 is overkill for either of those CPU's so it won't be an issue.

For Intel if I was building a system I'd seriously look at the i7 over the i9. Intel is way past the peak efficiency to get to the i9's numbers so you're producing a bunch of heat/using up much more power for a difference that's not too huge in terms of performance VS the i7. The i9 will run hot even with a NHD15 while that's more than enough for the i7.

For an intel motherboard if you go i9 definitely find some reviews which look into the VRM performance. And also how much DDR4 vs 5 has an impact on your workflow. The price premium is so high currently that it might not be worth it, though you are locked into whichever one you choose since motherboards only support one or the other.

Overall though I wouldn't view DDR5 as a deciding factor, just look at the overall performance since these 2 platforms are different enough beyond that.

Also what's your time frame for building this computer? AMD is a few months away from releasing their 3D cache chips which will add a huge pool of L3 to them and that could have a big impact on some workflows.

Rambow Senior Member • Posts: 2,211
Don't matter
1

You will be happy either way, i prefer intel because they have less issues(historically) and there are more widely used. The new cpus will crush intel 6th gen, expect like 40-50% better performance in real life.

The components are fine, i am more interested in the $300 versus $600 motherboard.

For a photo editing computer, what does a $600 motherboard do that a $300 ones doesn't?

I'm just curious. The last motherboard that i bought was a $50 "mining" mb from gigabyte with "ultradurable" technology and it works great.

Granded, for power hungry components a higher quality mobo is needed, but does it really have to be $600 worth?

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CBR1100XX Senior Member • Posts: 1,415
Re: Don't matter
1
  1. Rambow wrote:

You will be happy either way, i prefer intel because they have less issues(historically) and there are more widely used. The new cpus will crush intel 6th gen, expect like 40-50% better performance in real life.

The components are fine, i am more interested in the $300 versus $600 motherboard.

For a photo editing computer, what does a $600 motherboard do that a $300 ones doesn't?

I'm just curious. The last motherboard that i bought was a $50 "mining" mb from gigabyte with "ultradurable" technology and it works great.

Granded, for power hungry components a higher quality mobo is needed, but does it really have to be $600 worth?

Much better power delivery is a big part of it for higher overclocking. Also more features like the number of M.2 slots, how fast the networking is, some include thunderbolt, etc.

You don't need a 600 dollar one especially with just a simple overclock. For 150-250 on AMD and a little higher for Intel that's where you need to look into the VRM performance for power delivery. On the cheapest end where you are it's even more important especially with a higher wattage CPU.  There are some very solid cheap boards out there and others that are much more likely to have issues.

NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,747
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards
2

dperez wrote:

SO... Looking at cost, performance, overclocking, reliability, etc - am I better with the Intel I9-12900KF or the AMD Ryzen 5950X? And why?

Motherboards for the Intel CPU seem to fall into 2 camps - expensive, like the $600 ASUS ROG Hero that are full of tweaks for gaming, and less expensive but I suspect not as capable $300 motherboards. Is there a motherboard that would be optimal for this type of application that's extremely capable, has easy, great overclocking, AND is cost effective or do I just shut up and buy the ASUS hero and be done with it?

A KF CPU is false economy especially  if you're thinking about video. Don't cheap out getting the F CPU. Quick Sync is only on the IGPU and it'll do things literally nothing else (outside of some Apple machines) can do.

If you get a camera that uses those features you'll regret not having the IGPU.

Locally Asus is having cash back on it's motherboards.  Looking at the webpage the Hero if you buy a 12900K gets you €120 back. Considering it comes with onboard Thunderboard and a NVME card that supports an additional two drives just those two features  can mean the board isn't expensive. Obviously you need the features but last I checked just a thunderbolt 4 add in card would add around 200 to a lower end motherboard.

I'm not sure which Hero features you think are gaming oriented. But if you're overclocking (you likely don't need to) everything from the number of fan headers, safe boot, LED screen so you don't have to rely on the four LED error lights are all positives.

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moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 5,781
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

dperez wrote:

Same question for the AMD... What are the great options for motherboards for this type of setup? Since the 5950X is limited to DDR4 memory I presume overall it'd be cheaper to build, but not as capable as the Intel (according to Puget)

5950x and high quality DDR4 is very capable. For the type of applications you will be using, that would be plenty

. And is there a really good tower cooler for the AMD? 'Cause again, I'd rather NOT have to mess with water cooling.

I am using the Lian Li Lancool ii Mesh Performance.  It is highly rated among reviews.  Check YT and Google search.   The whole rig runs very well and cool.  I am using the Noctua D15s on a 5900x.   My CPU don't runs higher than 75 deg C while running Prime95.  Quite superb!

The budget isn't unlimited, but neither is it so constrained that I want to end up with a disappointing system... Thoughts?

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OP dperez Regular Member • Posts: 492
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards
1

Thanks a lot for the replies. It’s helped clarify some of my questions (the secret to getting useful answers) and provide useful insight.

Noctua will send you adapters for AMD AM4 or the new Intel platform so that shouldn't be an issue. If you still have the NHD15 box I'd look to see because you might have the AMD hardware already since it's been the same since 2016.

My NH-D15 is from 2014 and I just need the right adapter for EITHER the Intel or AMD CPU. Both are available at no charge, and it’ll take 10 days – 2 weeks to get either.

In both cases I'd actually give a lot of thought to the CPU's 1 level lower.

With AMD the 5900X is actually faster in some workloads. Under the articles section Puget breaks everything down in a lot of detail in their charts so if this is the case or the difference in the areas you use is small enough that could be a good place to save money. As for motherboards if you need a lot of connectivity there are ~200 dollar high quality X570 boards with good VRM's. And honestly a NHD15 is overkill for either of those CPU's so it won't be an issue.

I saw some discussions that said the same thing. The claim was that all these CPUs are pushed so high originally that there’s not as much overclocking headroom as there used to be – especially if you’re not planning to do some kind of “exotic” cooling. The 5900X was mentioned as an alternative – faster base clock and $150 cheaper…

For Intel if I was building a system I'd seriously look at the i7 over the i9. Intel is way past the peak efficiency to get to the i9's numbers so you're producing a bunch of heat/using up much more power for a difference that's not too huge in terms of performance VS the i7. The i9 will run hot even with a NHD15 while that's more than enough for the i7.

I have an acquaintance the recently upgraded to an i7-10700. His reaction was underwhelming. “It’s maybe a little faster doing some things, but I don’t see any difference in the tools, and times in Topaz and Helicon Focus changed very little. I wish I’d spent the extra $100 for the 11700. Or something even faster.”

I DON’T want to be there 3 months after I build this. I don’t want to create something that’s going to be “meh” when I’m done. I don’t need to yell “Eureka”, but I’d like to be impressed with significant improvements in things like generating a thousand 1:1 previews or creating an HDR/pano. Same for Photoshop – I’d like to see those 5 minute 12-image panoramas drop significantly, and Topaz – I’d like to see those two MINUTE sharpenings come down significantly.

For an intel motherboard if you go i9 definitely find some reviews which look into the VRM performance. And also how much DDR4 vs 5 has an impact on your workflow. The price premium is so high currently that it might not be worth it, though you are locked into whichever one you choose since motherboards only support one or the other.

I know the VRM regulates voltage to components and see numbers periodically like 14+4+1 (usually listed only on those $600+ motherboards) but I haven’t seen any comparisons or “best of” articles that say the equivalent of “this $600 board is better than that $300 board because THAT board does poor VRM”. I’ll have to look for statements about VRM quality.

From the Puget Systems review: In Photoshop, 12th Gen CPUs are anywhere from 12-17% faster than the previous 11th Gen processors, compared to similarly priced AMD Ryzen CPUs, we saw about 5-11% higher performance with the 12th Gen Intel Core processors. [me]The i9-12900 was ~8% faster than the 5950 and ~20% faster than the i7-11700.

In Lightroom, 12th Gen CPUs from Intel represent a major shift in CPU performance for Lightroom Classic. For the last few generations, AMD has been the dominant choice, but with these new CPUs, Intel has taken a commanding lead. The performance between Intel and AMD is closer at the top-end, but the i9 12900K still manages to pull ahead of the Ryzen 5900X by a small 6% with DDR4, or by 15% when using DDR5 memory.

Intel the clear choice for Lightroom Classic when it comes to performance. Even better, this is true both for active tasks like image culling, and for passive tasks like exporting. All around, the 12th Gen CPUs are simply a solid investment for photographers using Lightroom Classic.

[me]Looking at the “Overall Lightroom” score, it looks like the DDR5 memory is about 8 or so percent faster than DDR4. The 12900 is ~12% faster than a 5900X and ~21% faster than the 5950X. The I7-11700 was ~40% slower. These are from their “Overall Score” so I’m not sure how that translates to the “real” world.

I’m also trying to look at “future-proofing”. The 12900 works best with Windows 11. Again, from the Puget Systems review: While Windows 11 didn't make a big impact on performance for the new 12th Gen CPUs in most cases, when it did improve performance, it did so by a large amount. Specifically, in Photoshop we saw about a 28% improvement in performance when using Windows 11 with the Intel Core i9 12900K. They also commented that Ryzen CPU chips had some problems with Windows 11 that may or may not be fixed.

[Puget]Overall, it is probably a good idea to plan on using Windows 11 for the 12th Gen Intel Core processors. Even outside of the performance you may see in individual applications, the optimizations to Thread Director should give you an overall better experience - at least, it should according to Intel.

Also what's your time frame for building this computer? AMD is a few months away from releasing their 3D cache chips which will add a huge pool of L3 to them and that could have a big impact on some workflows.

It’s not a critical situation. I’m up and running, and could do it anytime I decide to move. If somebody has a good price on pieces that could push me, but I can definitely sit on all this ‘til after Christmas. I KNOW all the parts are there for the AMD. If I want the Intel I have to go with DDR4 memory and motherboard, which I’d rather not do if I go with the Intel.

You will be happy either way, i prefer intel because they have less issues(historically) and there are more widely used. The new cpus will crush intel 6th gen, expect like 40-50% better performance in real life.

The components are fine, i am more interested in the $300 versus $600 motherboard.

For a photo editing computer, what does a $600 motherboard do that a $300 ones doesn't?

I'm just curious. The last motherboard that i bought was a $50 "mining" mb from gigabyte with "ultradurable" technology and it works great.

Granded, for power hungry components a higher quality mobo is needed, but does it really have to be $600 worth?

That’s the crux of my question. The $600 gaming motherboard has “mystic music” and “programmable blinking, flashing, dancing lighting.” And support for multiple graphics cards, possibly multiple networks that are insanely fast, and probably at least a few other features that are valuable if you are a serious gamer but aren’t needed for a really good image processing system. And those gigabit networks aren’t much use if you live where a GOOD day provides 20 Mbps.

BUT, it ALSO may have more SATA 3 ports, multiple USB 3.2 headers for ports on the front panel, PCIe x4 or x16 sockets for extremely fast NVMe SSDs. I’d HOPE better VRM, higher quality heatsinks, easier overclocking that’s more stable and reliable (though I don’t plan on doing anything extreme), and generally higher quality components. Where the point of diminishing returns hits, I don’t know. How much of the difference between the $200 or $300 motherboard and the $600 one is actually useful?

So far, regardless of whether Intel or AMD, every review I’ve looked at for motherboards has been full of $600-800 motherboards, with the $300 “budget” option being treated like the ugly step-sister. As long as the $200 or $300 motherboard has the stuff I THINK I need, I’d be happy not to spend $600. Just have to find the good one(s).

A KF CPU is false economy especially if you're thinking about video. Don't cheap out getting the F CPU. Quick Sync is only on the IGPU and it'll do things literally nothing else (outside of some Apple machines) can do.

If you get a camera that uses those features you'll regret not having the IGPU.

I figured that out yesterday as I was reading different articles… Hadn’t thought of it ‘til then but other than a mention somewhere that the KF performed some minuscule amount better than the K BECAUSE it didn’t have the onboard graphics, everything else has recommended the K version.

I’ll take a look at the ASUS motherboards – my last 2 systems were on them and both worked well.

I am using the Lian Li Lancool ii Mesh Performance. It is highly rated among reviews. Check YT and Google search. The whole rig runs very well and cool. I am using the Noctua D15s on a 5900x. My CPU don't runs higher than 75 deg C while running Prime95. Quite superb!

Great to know. I’ve read discussions that said if you’re using the 12900 you CANNOT work it “hard” even if not overclocked, without water cooling. The NH-D15 can’t keep it cool.

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NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,747
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

A few things if you go to Youtube look for a channel called Actually Hardcore Overclocking. He routinely discusses VRMs when  he breaks down motherboards. These days a 14 phase board is pretty low end but he'll also tell you it's likely overkill at even 14 phase. He is mainly breaking down motherboards from the overclocker view point so will write off many things that  a normal user might appreciate. He still talks about not even using NVME yet but an NVME drive will make your system not just faster but noticablly more useable.

Network speed isn't really about connecting to the internet. It's about connecting to your NAS or in general to your home network. Even with HDD approaching 20TB there are people that need to put a bunch into a raid not just for size but speed.  You don't want to slow yourself down trying to connect via USB or some of the now slower ethernet speeds.

You can put the video you're editing on to a 1 or 2 TB NVME but you can easily have tens of TBs of archival footage. This is only going to get worse with video resolution climbing.

I don't think very many people are using multiple GPUs in normal systems anymore.  Maybe some high end AI servers.

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kelpdiver Veteran Member • Posts: 5,239
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

dperez wrote:

I went over to Puget Systems, and they're very impressed with the I7-12900 compared to the AMD 5950X. I don't have a HUGE preference, but in general I'd be more likely to put together an Intel system unless there are advantages to the AMD.

I'm a bit surprised that their review didn't address the power draw delta.  PS made their initial mark selling truly quiet workstations, and having to deal with an extra 150W of heat will compromise that.

The other real concern is the 1.0 version motherboards, and waiting on DDR5 and PCIE5 to enter the market.   I'll be waiting till mid 2022, after AMD's response (which may drop into my existing 3900X MB), and for the intel side to settle.

It's also unfortunate that the current market is brutal for DIY builds.   If you're going with a VAR, then the scarcity tax, esp for GPU, is not that bad.   And if you go intel, you do have the option of getting a GPU later.

OP dperez Regular Member • Posts: 492
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

I hadn't thought about network in terms of NAS. So far I've managed to keep everything important in the system, but I can see if I start playing with video, things could get out of hand quickly.

As for Puget Systems, I don’t recall them mentioning the power consumption, but I did find discussions that claimed the 12900 was drawing close to 250W and was over 90C. It was on hour-long tests at maximum load, but still…

I have some of the same concerns about early motherboards and unavailable memory, and may sit back for a little while. But there will ALWAYS be the next better big thing. In 3 months AMD shoves out a bunch of new 6000 chips that are faster than the Intel. And they need new 1.0 version motherboards. And it starts all over again. And three or six months later Intel does the same thing. If I’m going to do that, I should get off the merry-go-round and either buy a 5900X or one of those i7 chips that was mentioned in earlier posts, get a decent mid-range motherboard, and build something that’s adequate – the equivalent of the guy that built with the 10700 and within a couple months regretted settling.

For me, at this time, in the absence of any contrary empirical data, it looks like either the 5950X or 12900. Overall cost for CPU, 64GB of memory, motherboard (the stuff that will be different) are, I think, going to be within a couple hundred dollars, with the AMD being cheaper ‘cause the memory is cheaper. It’s mature, but hopefully good for a while. BUT, if Puget Systems is right about performance, and the 12900 isn't going to be a power-guzzling, furnace, I’d rather spend the extra couple hundred. Hopefully, over the next month there will be people beating the Intel chip up well enough, on different motherboards, to find out whether it’s going to be a problem or not.

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NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,747
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

Raptorlake (Intel's replacement of Alderlake) likely isn't coming out until next autumn. Supposedly the same socket but you will also have the option of a new chipset.  Virtually every generation comes with a new chipset. That means you're always looking at 1.0 motherboards.

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CBR1100XX Senior Member • Posts: 1,415
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

Hardware unboxed is a good channel to keep an eye on. This is for X570 AMD boards but it'll give you an idea of the kinda tests they do:

https://youtu.be/_7PkZwY9PWM

And for that last bit you're right about the i9 and OCing it.  But stock it's pretty fast and while you're putting a greater stress on it and the other components they should all be within spec if you get a board with some decent VRM's.  I'm guessing that it won't be hit with extended all core workloads all the time?  I mean that's one of the nice things about photo editing that while a lot of it needs fast CPU's only a few steps really stress the whole thing.  So going up to the D15's limits while not ideal isn't a deal breaker.  The i7 just makes for an easier build which is why I like it.

Also I don't think you'd be in the same boat as your friend with the i7 since 10th gen while giving you more cores was still Skylake so if you had an OC one for most of those lightly threaded tasks you likely wouldn't see a big difference going to 10th gen.  The i7 Alderlake is a big jump from there, going from that to i9 won't be as big but every bit does help.

CBR1100XX Senior Member • Posts: 1,415
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

NickZ2016 wrote:

Raptorlake (Intel's replacement of Alderlake) likely isn't coming out until next autumn. Supposedly the same socket but you will also have the option of a new chipset. Virtually every generation comes with a new chipset. That means you're always looking at 1.0 motherboards.

Doesn't Intel usually do 2 years of compatibility though? And IIRC 10th gen motherboards had PCI 4.0 support even though it wouldn't be available until 11th gen.  And with X570 going for 2-2.5 generations of chips it would be nice if this becomes a trend.

NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,747
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards
1

The socket is reported to be supported but every new generation comes with a new chipset.

Z490 could sort of support PCI 4.0 after the bios upgrade with the 11th gen chips not with the 10th IIRC. Z590 supported PCI 4.0 to begin with. Thunderbolt 4.0 instead of 3. USB 3.2.2. Z590 came with the latest WiFi 6 standards. Actually it came with the still not legal standard -) The frequencies it uses weren't authorized in Europe yet when I bought mine.

Most buyers aren't replacing CPUs. For a lot of buyers the motherboard improvements likely end up more important than the relatively small CPU gains.  Somebody jumping from an older platform that maybe supported USB 3.0 to USB 3.2.2 might find that a more important jump than the CPU upgrade. Likewise with the shift to NVME from SATA HDD.

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Austinian
MOD Austinian Forum Pro • Posts: 12,799
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards
1

CBR1100XX wrote:

NickZ2016 wrote:

Raptorlake (Intel's replacement of Alderlake) likely isn't coming out until next autumn. Supposedly the same socket but you will also have the option of a new chipset. Virtually every generation comes with a new chipset. That means you're always looking at 1.0 motherboards.

Doesn't Intel usually do 2 years of compatibility though? And IIRC 10th gen motherboards had PCI 4.0 support even though it wouldn't be available until 11th gen. And with X570 going for 2-2.5 generations of chips it would be nice if this becomes a trend.

If long-term Intel CPU upgradeability is important, Intel's next HEDT CPUs (replacing Skylake-X and Cascade Lake-X) are worth looking into. However, the next HEDT platform, Sapphire Rapids, is rumored to not appear until late 2022.

For reference, the current HEDT platform, X299, dates back to 2017, so lifespans are longer than the standard desktop chips.

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NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,747
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

I think that was more about the possible replacements not being able to compete with AMD not that they had intended to keep it around this long.

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Austinian
MOD Austinian Forum Pro • Posts: 12,799
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

NickZ2016 wrote:

I think that was more about the possible replacements not being able to compete with AMD not that they had intended to keep it around this long.

Maybe, but that didn't stop Intel from replacing the original Skylake-X CPUs with upgraded Cascade Lake-X chips while keeping the new chips compatible with older X299 mobos.

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NickZ2016 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,747
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

Cascade was what three years ago? That's a long time.

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CBR1100XX Senior Member • Posts: 1,415
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

NickZ2016 wrote:

Cascade was what three years ago? That's a long time.

I just looked at the sockets for my older workstations and looks like that just did 2 years back then too for HEDT/Xeon.

Austinian
MOD Austinian Forum Pro • Posts: 12,799
Re: Another "Time to upgrade" - 12900 vs 5950 and motherboards

NickZ2016 wrote:

Cascade was what three years ago? That's a long time.

Launch date Q4 2019.

 Austinian's gear list:Austinian's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Sony a7R IV Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Macro 30mm F2.8 Panasonic 12-60mm F3.5-5.6 OIS +6 more
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