Circuit Board Longevity

Compared to digital, I purchased far fewer film cameras over any given period.  I started in 1967 with Nikon and the earliest purchases were functionally close to later purchases.  Plus, they were dead reliable.

Development of digital cameras was rapid and the difference of a even few years brought important improvements.  The longevity of early digital models was not so important because they were usually replaced because of functional improvements in new models.

Now, however, we appear to be reaching point of diminishing returns and many owners may hang on to existing models for some time.

Do any folks in this forum know of anything that could cause digital cameras to deteriorate more quickly than film cameras?  For example, can the removal of lead from solder cause problems down the road?

Not that I have to be concerned.  Just curious.

Just off the top of my head, any "cold" solder joint can open up over time given enough cycles of thermal expansion and contraction, even if it's mild. I think this is less likely for mass-produced items because of consistency and quality control measures, leaded solder or not, than for hand-soldered joints, but would still be possible in theory.

If there are any electrolytic capacitors, they can degrade over time, some batches worse than others depending on tolerances.

Today's microchips are filled with incredibly tiny circuits, and highly charged cosmic rays can ionize circuits causing them to "leak". Sometimes this dissipates over time (hours or days, typically), but sometimes the damage is permanent. This can be the cause of those mysteries where something electronic stops working properly and then starts working again all on its own. As an aside, bit-flipping from cosmic radiation has been a consideration in data centre hardware design for at least a couple of decades now. It's not rare. And sometimes when those rays pass through the body of a living organism they damage enough DNA to trigger a cancer.

I have a venerably Olympus E-1 that suddenly developed an exposure problem. With a zoom lens, weighted and averaged metering only worked with the lens at the widest focal length. When zoomed in, it's like it no longer could calculate the correct aperture opening and everything was several stops overexposed. Spot metering worked just fine, though. Prime lenses had no problem. I was able to exclude mechanical problems; it was clearly in the electronics. Then, months later, it suddenly started working again. Gremlins.

Regards,
Sterling
--
Lens Grit

This is going to be an overly wordy response, so excuse the brain dump.   I have a lot of old electronic stuff and see how it fails.

1. Batteries.   Just remove them and store them separately.   Even if they don't outright leak, gasses may be released into the sealed insides of the camera causing issues through it.   Lithium batteries are usually not subject to this sort of issue, but after 20 years or 40?  IDK.  
2. Capacitors.   Like an army of evil little time bombs.   Their electrolyte can leak out and it is corrosive, can volatilize, and cause local damage and in an enclosed space diffuse damage.    Tantalum capacitors are the next worst nightmare.   They can fail electrically, usually causing a low resistance short.  I still have a 1983 Iomega A10-H disk controller board with 200 tantalum caps of which 1 is bad... sitting on my bench.  Good luck finding it.   Maybe this winter?  IDK.  
3. Degrading foams, rubbers, adhesives, etc.   Foam pads, thermal pastes, rubbers are sometimes not stable and can break down making particles or goo.   In some cases they just harden and no longer serve their function as well.   In other cases... yuk.
4. Drying greases and oils.   Like a good clock, a camera's delicate innards should not require lubrication nor should mobile oils be present.   However heating, or breakdown of greases, or separation of emulsions and sols can result in films that can creep around or aerosolize . 
5. Out-gassing.   This is often from unreacted monomers in badly made plastics or plasticizers or blowing chemicals in foams.  It forms crystals all over.   So the first surface mirrors in a dSLR or interior lenses ... they can get coated with crystals.  It can be difficult to clean as they may not be soluble in IPA and can cause scratches when cleaned with things like a zeiss wipe.     I had one instance where a $300 specialty filter was utter destroyed by out-gassing of the cheap foam in its lens case - and then me trying to "clean" it.   An expensive mistake.
6. Humidity.   Mold is a problem even for modern lenses and equipment.   Mold spores are often hygroscopic and pull humidity out of the air in non-condensing environments.   With low relative humidity, this mechanism does not work.
7. Connectors, buttons, external components vs human oils.   The thing I am seeing on older used equipment is buildup of oily residue on the exterior which is just gross.  Plasticizers also can cause this forming a gummy uncleanable layer. For old mechanical cameras, it is just unsightly.   For digital cameras, this stuff tends to work its way into micro switches and membranes causing them to fail or get sticky.

Anyway, am I worried?   Not really.    Some of these issues are preventable.   Some are not.   The issue with cameras is that unlike an old 1940's Philco-Ford television, they are very difficult to open up, troubleshoot, and repair.    The game will really be buying a number of them cheaply and storing them so that when they do fail, you won't care.

BobORama wrote:

This is going to be an overly wordy response, so excuse the brain dump. I have a lot of old electronic stuff and see how it fails.

An excellent list!

I still have a 1983 Iomega A10-H disk controller board with 200 tantalum caps of which 1 is bad... sitting on my bench. Good luck finding it. Maybe this winter? IDK.

Current limiting power supply and a thermal IR camera often makes quick work of the “find the shorted capacitor” game.

Richard Frederick wrote:

Compared to digital, I purchased far fewer film cameras over any given period. I started in 1967 with Nikon and the earliest purchases were functionally close to later purchases. Plus, they were dead reliable.

Development of digital cameras was rapid and the difference of a even few years brought important improvements. The longevity of early digital models was not so important because they were usually replaced because of functional improvements in new models.

Now, however, we appear to be reaching point of diminishing returns and many owners may hang on to existing models for some time.

Do any folks in this forum know of anything that could cause digital cameras to deteriorate more quickly than film cameras? For example, can the removal of lead from solder cause problems down the road?

Not that I have to be concerned. Just curious.

Obsolescence factor.

Consumer markets today exist with the underlying concept of buying new every 3 - 5 years.

My 2011 iMac is still running but I can’t upgrade to the latest macOS because the hardware isn’t rated compatible with the newest macOS.

Military/Space grade electronic components will function far longer than consumer grade but to what purpose if it’s not possible to perform required software upgrades designed to use much newer hardware.

All in all this adds up to a higher rated obsolescence factor regarding the quality/reliability requirements of electronic products which in turn helps in keeping manufacturing costs to a minimum.

Keeping the costs to a minimum encourages consumers to buy the latest & greatest before, hopefully, the old electronics fail. But even if it doesn't fail the need to upgrade the software will ....... & so on ad infinitum

Since you specifically asked about problems with the removal of lead in solder, you might find this article of interest. An issue to be aware of, but there are things we can do about it with design and manufacturing processes.

Tin Whiskers: PCB Soldering Issue | EAGLE | Blog (autodesk.com)

My experience has been we have many more problems with colder solder joints than whiskers. The article below says detection of cold solder joints is more difficult with lead free solder.

What is a Cold Solder Joint? - PCB Directory

When ROHS went into effect we had quite a few electronic boards delivered to us that were okay during our in-house functional testing but then failed in the field due to cold solder joints.  One of our suppliers told us it was due to improper temperature during solder.  They had to upgrade their equipment before they started making reliable parts again.

Richard Frederick wrote:

Compared to digital, I purchased far fewer film cameras over any given period. I started in 1967 with Nikon and the earliest purchases were functionally close to later purchases. Plus, they were dead reliable.

Development of digital cameras was rapid and the difference of a even few years brought important improvements. The longevity of early digital models was not so important because they were usually replaced because of functional improvements in new models.

Now, however, we appear to be reaching point of diminishing returns and many owners may hang on to existing models for some time.

Do any folks in this forum know of anything that could cause digital cameras to deteriorate more quickly than film cameras? For example, can the removal of lead from solder cause problems down the road?

Not that I have to be concerned. Just curious.

Certain components, like Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitors, don't have great life's. (Pro Tip, if somethings with those in fails just look for the one that's dumped its contents on the PCB and replace it). However as the chips in Cameras tend not to be anywhere near bleeding edge technology (as the developments costs aren't compatible with the unit volumes) it's all good, as issues like the "hot electron effect" don't apply, unlike phones...

n/t

Everyone whose taken a crack at this has focused on failures of components that are attached to the PCBs and not the PCBs themselves. Although components are the most likely source of camera failure, the PCBs themselves can contribute.

Dendritic growth is certainly an issue, especially with fine trace spacing and humid storage conditions. Improper conformal coatings can perversely make this worse, not better, as is their intent.

Plated vias can open up with temperature cycling. This is less likely if they are filled with solder.

Glass-epoxy boards are subject to fungal growth and wicking along the fibers. This is usually not an issue unless the circuitry in the region uses high impedances. Paper epoxy boards don't have this problem, but they are not as rugged.

Phenolic boards can become brittle over time.

JimKasson wrote:

Everyone whose taken a crack at this has focused on failures of components that are attached to the PCBs and not the PCBs themselves. Although components are the most likely source of camera failure, the PCBs themselves can contribute.

Dendritic growth is certainly an issue, especially with fine trace spacing and humid storage conditions. Improper conformal coatings can perversely make this worse, not better, as is their intent.

Plated vias can open up with temperature cycling. This is less likely if they are filled with solder.

Glass-epoxy boards are subject to fungal growth and wicking along the fibers. This is usually not an issue unless the circuitry in the region uses high impedances. Paper epoxy boards don't have this problem, but they are not as rugged.

Phenolic boards can become brittle over time.

Modern PCBs are generally reliable components, although older ones were less so. Part of the issue is PCB manufacture is a home chemistry set game to a degree and relies on people paying attention and not saving a few pennies. Oh and I'm not sure complex PCBs in cameras will have conformal coatings?

One issue I had was the formula we used for PCB reliability included the number of holes in the maths, the last processor board I did had 9,100 holes (a lot laser drilled) so it didn't meet the reliability requirement for the product before you stuck any components on it
(The issue was the formula not keeping up with the World, not the board.)

Also PCB manufacturers spend their lives trying to save a few pennies and screwing you over. I could spend a week telling stories about stuff like increased drill clearances and cock-ups with importing drill tables. Oh and going back a while Black Pad where the components started falling off one of my colleague's boards after 9-12 months (due to cleaning bath issues at the PCB manufacturer). Most of my boards had a whole essay on stuff they had to do and they still came up with ways to improve their yield at my (well, signal integrity's) expense.

BTW I wouldn't fill plated vias, but always insisted on getting a cross-section of the board with each PCB batch (we used to do our own, but it's simpler to ask for one) so we could check the plating quality down the holes. Again this can go south if they use the drills for a little longer than they should, as they can not drill as cleanly and leave some fibres in the hole, which screws with the plating.

BobORama wrote:

This is going to be an overly wordy response, so excuse the brain dump. I have a lot of old electronic stuff and see how it fails. ...

Excellent list. However, I'll add the #1 concern: format, media, and protocol compatibility.

For example, lots of specialized batteries and one-of-a-kind interface cables are no longer available. Worse still, I don't really have any modern computers that can access media like these cards (which I bet very few of us could even identify):

I have many old computer disks, tapes, etc. that I can no longer read. Put another way, how many of us still have a working VHS videocassette player?

Anyway, am I worried? Not really.

Me either. Cameras are still getting better fast enough that I don't mind upgrading long before these problems kick in. However, my top-of-the-line camera right now is still a Sony A7RII, and even an A1 isn't quite enough of a bump to justify upgrading (given pricing). An A1's sensor in a electronic-shutter-only $3K A7IV-ish body would probably make me upgrade... but I don't see that yet.

That said, the odds that any of my digital cameras will still be usable in 50 years is way lower than for 50-year-old mechanical cameras... well, except for the fact that films like Kodachrome aren't made anymore.

57even wrote:

SmilerGrogan wrote:

57even wrote:

I still use a Marantz receiver that I bought in 1980. Works fine!

Saul Marantz built his equipment to last; I had a 50-year-old Marantz Model 8 tube amplifier that was still working perfectly when I sold it to buy a Nikon D200.

Yep. It's built like a nuclear bunker

I have a Quad 44 pre-amp currently in my system which would date from around 1980, and is working fine.

It was out of use for a long time but I started using it again for the Tilt control. It sounds fine.

Don Cox

ProfHankD wrote:

BobORama wrote:

This is going to be an overly wordy response, so excuse the brain dump. I have a lot of old electronic stuff and see how it fails. ...

Excellent list. However, I'll add the #1 concern: format, media, and protocol compatibility.

For example, lots of specialized batteries and one-of-a-kind interface cables are no longer available. Worse still, I don't really have any modern computers that can access media like these cards (which I bet very few of us could even identify):

I have many old computer disks, tapes, etc. that I can no longer read. Put another way, how many of us still have a working VHS videocassette player?

I have a CF to SM reader ( yes, that is a thing ) and can access the SM card using available adapters for CF - CF is still widely used in all manner of stuff for some reason. They also made a SM to Floppy adapter. Or if you want:

https://www.amazon.com/SmartMedia-Reader-Universal-Adapter-Windows/dp/B07J9WQGDX

I also have a working VHS player. LOL!

Also 4 working Iomega 10MB Bernoulli Boxes.   ( This started as a personal data recovery project and not has morphed into some insane passion. )  On twitter I have documented recovering SEM images and my own 8-bit game source files from mid 1980's 10MB Iomega Bernoulli disks:  take a look, some of it is amusing.   And also hopeful.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%40bobmahar%20bernoulli&src=typed_query

https://twitter.com/BobMahar/status/1363195156212645890?s=20  <-- LOL!  I mean how does a SEM take pictures of people?   How did these get on these cartriges?  Its baffling.   Also who is Gerry?   Does anyone know?

So in that case its recovering an image from a dead / unknown image format, on a dead file system, created with a dead OS, on dead media, using dead equipment, which itself uses SASI ( predecessor to but compatible with SCSI ) .   That's a lot of layers of dead.

So I agree with what you are saying, but the preservation effort starts with ... well ... us.

Also, seriously, does anyone know the old guy?   I assume its someone important to the SEM universe.   Or computing.    The secondary issue who would even care about any of this stuff being preserved?     I mean I do.

Who is this guy?

BobORama wrote:

Who is this guy?

It looks like the Richard Nixon/Nikita Khrushchev kitchen debate, with the kitchen replaced with an image of a CRT terminal.

BobORama wrote:

So I agree with what you are saying, but the preservation effort starts with ... well ... us.

I've been doing a lot of that for years. I have quite a collection, mostly of old computer hardware, but including perhaps the single largest collection of hardware documentation for obsolete supercomputers, which my students lovingly refer to as my "dead tree collection" because most of the papers haven't been scanned yet.

Still, I have trouble reading my DECTape backups, my 5" hard-sectored 87K Byte NorthStar floppies, my 800BPI tapes, etc. 

Just before the pandemic, I brought my pair of AT&T UNIX PCs into my lab to see if we could get those historical oddities running again. They both booted, and one even got to a shell prompt, but they both had trouble reading their hard disks. I actually got a board somebody made to allow an SD card to substitute for the ancient disks (circa 1985), but thanks to the pandemic, it hasn't been touched....

ProfHankD wrote:

BobORama wrote:

So I agree with what you are saying, but the preservation effort starts with ... well ... us.

I've been doing a lot of that for years. I have quite a collection, mostly of old computer hardware, but including perhaps the single largest collection of hardware documentation for obsolete supercomputers, which my students lovingly refer to as my "dead tree collection" because most of the papers haven't been scanned yet.

Still, I have trouble reading my DECTape backups, my 5" hard-sectored 87K Byte NorthStar floppies, my 800BPI tapes, etc.

Just before the pandemic, I brought my pair of AT&T UNIX PCs into my lab to see if we could get those historical oddities running again. They both booted, and one even got to a shell prompt, but they both had trouble reading their hard disks. I actually got a board somebody made to allow an SD card to substitute for the ancient disks (circa 1985), but thanks to the pandemic, it hasn't been touched....

If you were to look through my briefcase you'd find (genuine) PDP-11 and Vax-11 programming cards in the pockets... (back when I studied computer architecture at Uni the PDP-11 was one of the main examples, never wrote assembly for the Vax tho - when someone ported the multi-player space-war game to my department at the Research Lab's Vax it appears they got in a Vax expert to write the necessary assembly language subroutines - which basically consisted of looking at an existing routine, working out what single Vax instruction did all the work and writing that plus some data moving to/from registers code, you really could do a week's work in one, billion character long, instruction - really, every one ended up as one instruction doing the work.

My oldest computers are a BBC-B and an Amiga, I would be surprised if the Amiga didn't start up, whether the hard drive would work I don't know (it did about 8-10 years ago)... the Beeb probably would too (my 160k SS/SD floppy drive didn't give much change out of £500)...

I also have some punched cards I punched (for Electronic Engineering homework at UCL, my first year was their last year) - IBM card-punches really do have the World's best-ever keyboards, nothing like the tactile feel added by having metal blades punch through cardboard with each keystroke, some paper tape (the original Woods/Crowther Adventure game), 8" floppies with C/PM 2.2 ...

Also too many old computer mags from when personal computing took off, I like them as historical documents, but I have recycled a few over the years as they do take up some space... I also have some literature from a visit to Cray UK when the 2 was the latest and greatest thing. Plus many old manuals and datasheets, some of which I value, like Fairchild Clipper documents (I was looking at designing a computer with it, but Intel moved ahead faster than they did), loved that architecture (would have loved owning the patent rights too)... pity about the semiconductor technology.